1055 réponses à ce sujet

[Cat Lance]

SirWalliss wrote...

Ok you doubt they would lose any in sales if they included it, yet you will not buy it because it doesnt include it.  I'd buy it if it did have gay romance in it, I just think the game wouldnt be as good cause they be taking away from other areas to include a gay romance...  Just doesnt make much sense to me,  I buy the game if it had no romance at all.  I dont depend on games for my romancing, I never knew it was that important to the gay comunity.

To the Lady who said she would rather see male on male then fem on fem, you are in the minority amoung women.  I have actually had this conversation with many women and they ALL said they would rather see female on female then dude on dude.  Women are just better looking then us blokes.  You cant really tell me you would rather see mans hairy butt instead of a womans, can you?? 

Think about it people, would you really rather see two dudes then two women?  Women are just better looking even from a non sexual point of view. 

I don't understand what confuses you about my statement saying I'd make a point of purchasing ME3 if it includes gay content. Where is the lack of understanding? I was not horribly terribly impressed with ME1, it was fun, but I have zero urge to replay it really. The fact that they have purposefully not included any gay content in ME2 just adds another notch against my interest in the title. If I do purchase it, it'll probably be for PC, so that I can use a mod to romance Jakob with a male shep and SuZe with a female shep and Garrus with both.

For me, shooters just aren't visceral enough, so I find the combat to be boring much of the time, so, the ME series hangs totally on it's companions and questlines for my interest. I felt that the quest lines were extremely poorly handled in ME1 and the companions faired only slightly better. So, I've been watching the forums and asking friends about their ME2 playthroughs and while I've heard that these things are handled better, the exclusion of the previous romances, especially the Liara T'soni romance and the lack of ANY homosexual options makes me rather more meh about purchasing.

That's just me though, I'm sure other people would have all kinds of variety of reasons for purchasing or not ME2 and 3. But I am saying that despite my lack of extreme interest in this particular series from BioWare I would vote with my dollar by purchasing ME3 if it included gay content. I think I covered all points of possible misunderstanding. Sorry for the tl;dr response.

I'd totally rather watch two hot guys make out and get some frottage on than two women. And I'm bi, so, dunno what that says.

[IguanidaeViridisAbsolutus]

Well, excuse me if I'm wrong or if you don't really understand me (English is not my natural language), but I'm wondering why people around here have been tormenting themselves for... Well... Details. I do not find other word to describe that. First, I'm an Iguana, a Geth Iguana, so I can't tell everyone my sexuals orientations, and I hope you won't judge me as "homophobic" or as "a stupid adolescent jerk", but the fact that there is no male and male pairing in Mass Effect can be easely understandable :

First, Mass Effect is not what we can call a dating sim game, it's not like finding the true love is part of the main quest, you're out to save the world from the biggest threat in ages, you are going to fight the cruelest and wickest monsters in the galaxy... And you're wonderring why there are no homosexuals people in the Normandy ? Hell, this is not a game talking about how to make babies or not, it's a game with a great story and a great narration, with an incredible universe and complex civilisations and you're blaming the game for not containing one unique thing : No male and male pairing ? What the hell... It remind me of those guys who are blaming Mass Effect for not containing nudity or suggestive scenes, I can't understand those kind of people that only want naked body and big guns, Mass Effect 1 and especially Mass Effect 2 shows us very interresting way to approach some concept of love : Each "conclusions" to the "love quest" is innerantly poetic and interresting : Imagination is our only witness for those act of love, there is no need to show naked body shaking and panting, nowadays, people can't use their own imagination to describe love, they want films or images... And it's sad, because nothing is more equivocal and also obvious than this simple zoom on the bed on some "love conclusions" in Mass Effect 2.

But, I realize that I'm talking more about love representation in Mass Effect than our primary subject : Male and male pairing.

So, secondly : Bioware already suffered from wanting to let the player choose his sexual orientation. Remember when Mass Effect came out in the stores, there was the "Mass Effect Scandal" and the infamous Fox News interview (Even in the tropical jungle we know about this story) where a pretty uninformed (?) psychanalist was talking about Mass Effect as it was Mass Harem, treating the game to be lewd and debauched. I remember reading somewhere that Mass Effect was taken back from stores in some countries because it contained lesbian scene (Between the infamous "blue alien chick" and our Femshep). In our societies, lesbians are generally more accepted than gay people, it's sad, but it's true. The ancient Greeks were the only civilizations to laud masculine homosexuality over heterosexuality and feminine homosexuality, but they were often engaged in bizarre and wicked relationship between teachers and pupils... From the first muslims to the tribalest cult, women were free to love whoever they wanted, but men were punished if they loved someone of the same sex... Nowadays, it would be extremely risked and even provocative to release a game containing male and male pairing if female and female love isn't even tolerated or flayed.

Finally, I would like to say that you can't blame Bioware for "casting homosexuals" asides : In Dragon Age : Origins, homosexuality between male and male and female and female is enabled ! I also saw that you were reproaching the fact that in ME1, sexual orientation was only possible for FemSheps... Well... Personnaly... I play a MaleShep (I'm proud of him, his face is between Sam Worthington and Vin Diesel, I'm totally seeing myself in him XD) and dating our infamous Blue Alien Chick is not what could come to my mind in retrospect. Of course, for my first playthrought, I unlocked Paramour Achievement with our lady in blue, but now my heart is belonging to Tali... Ahh... Tali... Hrm... Well... So our Asari is litterally an Hermaphrodite : She can mate and reproduce herself with anyone of any species... It's... Kinda gross because she doesn't belong to any sex. If she wanted to sign up in Bioware Forums, she would take the case "Other" in "Genders"... Well... I prefer "real" females than strange beings between female and hermaphrodites...

To conclude, I want to warn you about the drift of that kind of behaviour : By wanting to see representations of homosexuals or transexuals, or zoophiles or whatever you're in (Iguanas only mate with other iguanas... Or Geth ... And Quarians ), you can be considered as a fanatic or a mad narrow-minded "blimp" (Is that the right word for "reactionnary old man ?). See the Avatar affair, with that gay group making strange attempt to show to hollywood that they didn't accepted that Jake Sully was not gay... What if in every media, they put homosexual main characters... What heterosexuals people would say ?



Well... I don't know if you will understand one word of what i've writtren (I hope so... Tell me if I must imrpove my spealing and grammary), but I think it's really trivial and fruitless to discuss about this or that game not including homosexual orientation for the main character... Because it's making the people angry, or tired, and it's a never ending story... Because when they include homosexual orientation in every medias... What will the zoophiles say ?...



Hm...

[Ryzaki]

^The second you compared homosexuality to zoophila is when most people write you off as either an idiot or a troll.

You realize this yes?

And Asari are female if she was a hermaphodite well...M!Shep wouldn't be able to be "pre-determined" to be straight. (Not that that in itself isn't a heap of nonsense).

Also their are already gay/bisexual people in the media *sweatdrops* The world hasn't exploded yet.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 février 2010 - 10:11 .

[SirWalliss]

I dont think it's a big stretch to go from somthing as unnatural as man on man or even girl on girl to man and beast. You know that man is made for woman right? Man's X goes in womans X. If everyone was gay humans would cease to exist, does anyone even get that??

[IguanidaeViridisAbsolutus]

Awww come on... That's not what I wanted you to understand...



I don't compare homosexuality to zoophilia, I said that people always want to be represented, I could use communists in place of zoophilia... So...

"If in every media you could choose your sexuality, why can't you also choose your political orientation ? I want to play a communist shepard !"

It's a neverending story of people wanting to be recognized and praised. It's like children in schools : "What ? This girl over there had candies because she cried because someone hit her ? I WANT SOME TOO !" It's tiring and exhausting to make all people feel recognized and praised...

I said that you can't blame Bioware for not incorporating male and male pairing, they can't think about everything, anytime, for everyone, it is impossible !



Then... No... Asari LOOKS like female, okay, but...

Well...

*whisper* they got tentacles on they head ! *whisper*

With hindsight, in retrospect, I now see the Asari civilization as a no-gender species. If they do not have any kind of gender, then they can't be considered as females or males, they are... Both... Kinda...

I admit, when I played Mass effect 1 some years ago, I thought that Asari were a female-only species, but the dialogs with our beloved Blue Alien Chick make us understand that she is not completly a female... But she would never be compared to a male either...

And they have the deadliest STD of the universe: The Ariak-Yakshy.



Also, the fact that gay and bisexcual people being represented in the media is a good thing, a proof of cultural and lifestyle evolution, a proof of humanity evolution ! But... Hack... Please don't try to forced homosexuality representations in EVERY movie and EVERY game just because a part of the humanity feels the need to be represented... I admit to prefer seing a guy and a girl or a girl and a girl cuddle over a guy and a guy, but I also love love stories between man and man when I'm not forced to assist to the "conclusion" of those love stories. The film with Jim Carey loving another man is very touching and interresting, but... I can't... really appreciate homosexual sex between man and man as I can appreciate love representations between a man and a girl or a girl and a girl...



Do you understand ?

[Ryzaki]

SirWalliss wrote...

I dont think it's a big stretch to go from somthing as unnatural as man on man or even girl on girl to man and beast. You know that man is made for woman right? Man's X goes in womans X. If everyone was gay humans would cease to exist, does anyone even get that??

*facepalms* its a small leap from man to beast? How about a heterosexual man and a female beast. Is that acceptable because they're different "genders"! NM the fact that animals and humans aren't even the same bloody *species*. Apparently having sex with an opposite gendered animal is preferable to sleeping with a human being of the same gender. Unbloody believeable. Its like some people were dropped on their heads as children. You do realize animals are incapable of giving informed consent right? While another human being can? 

Oh. God. ...That agruement. Really?  You're seriously telling me the only sex you've ever had was missionary style? That's...pathetic.

If everyone was straight and having babies the bloody overpopulation problems would be ridculous. (Or heck the massive amounts of abortion would be ridculous neither of which are pleasant).

People have been gay as long as people have been straight. If the world hasn't exploded then, it won't do so now.

Honestly does no one get that? 

[IguanidaeViridisAbsolutus]

And SirWallis I think your reply is quite offending. It's considering that homosexuality is unnatural for Humanity, which is wrong !

Look at the funny and... well... Freaking bonobos ! They have sex at all along the day and the night with either male and female, even freaking kids !

And they share 95% of Humanity D.N.A, they are our closest cousins, far in front of the gorillas or chimpanzees.

Can't humanity just have sex with whoever they want ? I want to choose to... And I want the possibility to not choose to have sex with other people of my own sex too...

[SirWalliss]

Asari's have breasts and they dont have a bulge in the crotch area, I'd assume they are females unless bioware has implimented sex changes?

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

SirWalliss wrote...

I dont think it's a big stretch to go from somthing as unnatural as man on man or even girl on girl to man and beast. You know that man is made for woman right? Man's X goes in womans X. If everyone was gay humans would cease to exist, does anyone even get that??

If everyone was gay, you wouldn't exist and the world would be a better place.  I still haven't decided if you're 12 or just bored.

[Crazy_Cat_Lady]

SirWalliss wrote...

Asari's have breasts and they dont have a bulge in the crotch area, I'd assume they are females unless bioware has implimented sex changes?

They're mono-gendered.  Neither male or female.  That is Bioware's official position and I assume that's how they rationalize stating that Shepard is 100% straight even though femShep can romance Liara.

[IguanidaeViridisAbsolutus]

Man... If they were totally females they would say : "We are freaking females, let's another species mate with us !"

But they say : "We are not female, but we are not male, we penetrate the spirit and body of someone else and we take his D.N.A while sharing his soul."

I thought they were "penetrating" the soul and body of the other species people like men... Well... "Penetrate" physically the bodies of women to reproduce...



Aww... And now it's turning in some grotesque and crude images in my head...

[Ryzaki]

IguanidaeViridisAbsolutus wrote...

Awww come on... That's not what I wanted you to understand...

I don't compare homosexuality to zoophilia, I said that people always want to be represented, I could use communists in place of zoophilia... So...
"If in every media you could choose your sexuality, why can't you also choose your political orientation ? I want to play a communist shepard !"
It's a neverending story of people wanting to be recognized and praised. It's like children in schools : "What ? This girl over there had candies because she cried because someone hit her ? I WANT SOME TOO !" It's tiring and exhausting to make all people feel recognized and praised...
I said that you can't blame Bioware for not incorporating male and male pairing, they can't think about everything, anytime, for everyone, it is impossible !

But they can put in lesbian romances? Really?  My beef with the whole thing is the fact that there ARE lesbian romances and not male gay romances. I wouldn't have cared if they manned up and admitted why they were doing it instead of giving all these BS excuses.

Then... No... Asari LOOKS like female, okay, but...
Well...
*whisper* they got tentacles on they head ! *whisper*
With hindsight, in retrospect, I now see the Asari civilization as a no-gender species. If they do not have any kind of gender, then they can't be considered as females or males, they are... Both... Kinda...

I'm going to say this simply. ASARI ARE FEMALE.

That it is. The end.

Asari have a robust cellular regenerative system. While they do not
heal faster than other species, asari are known to reach 1000 years of
age.
Although asari have one gender, they are not asexual. An asari
provides two copies of her own genes to her offspring, which—regardless
of the species or sex of the 'father'—is always an asari. The second
set is altered in a unique process called melding, also known as the
joining. - Mass Effect wiki.

ONE GENDER. ONE BEING FEMALE. "Daughter, Matriarch, Goddess, Huntress" All FEMALE descriptions.

I admit, when I played Mass effect 1 some years ago, I thought that Asari were a female-only species, but the dialogs with our beloved Blue Alien Chick make us understand that she is not completly a female... But she would never be compared to a male either...
And they have the deadliest STD of the universe: The Ariak-Yakshy.

That ironically enough renders one sterile and only affects Asari. You were saying? 

Also, the fact that gay and bisexcual people being represented in the media is a good thing, a proof of cultural and lifestyle evolution, a proof of humanity evolution ! But... Hack... Please don't try to forced homosexuality representations in EVERY movie and EVERY game just because a part of the humanity feels the need to be represented... I admit to prefer seing a guy and a girl or a girl and a girl cuddle over a guy and a guy, but I also love love stories between man and man when I'm not forced to assist to the "conclusion" of those love stories. The film with Jim Carey loving another man is very touching and interresting, but... I can't... really appreciate homosexual sex between man and man as I can appreciate love representations between a man and a girl or a girl and a girl...

Do you understand ?

No one is doing that. We only want a M/M option because there's already an F/F option. What's so strange about that?

BioWare themselves opened the door.

Also: You are not going to be forced to follow through with the M/M. Its an option like any other bloody romance in the game.

Do you understand? 

Jesus its like people are too brain dead to realize that.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 février 2010 - 10:41 .

[SirWalliss]

Ok sinse I'm not gay I only do it missionary? and you call me missinformed? So according to you your only gay for population control?? I'm sorry if I'm stating the obvious, gay is pretty much the dictionary meaning of the word unnatural. Personally I dont care whos gay and who's not as long as it isint shoved on me through games or forums? Dont even try to make the same point of hetero being pushed on you cause thats how normal humans procreate.



Sorry guys the truth hurts...

[Ryzaki]

SirWalliss wrote...

Ok sinse I'm not gay I only do it missionary? and you call me missinformed? So according to you your only gay for population control?? I'm sorry if I'm stating the obvious, gay is pretty much the dictionary meaning of the word unnatural. Personally I dont care whos gay and who's not as long as it isint shoved on me through games or forums? Dont even try to make the same point of hetero being pushed on you cause thats how normal humans procreate.

Sorry guys the truth hurts...

You said X goes into Y. Seeing as both males and females have Z and you're using that as an excuse obviously not.

Actually the truth is gays in nature probably are for population control. Just like straights are for additional population. What you think humans are here for some great magical purpose or something? 

Oh you are straight! The magical dieties have proclaimed you exist to do X!

Oh you are gay! The magical dieties have proclaimed you exist to do Y!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[Lightice_av]

Ryzaki, don't waste your energy on a troll. "Reason" and "rationality" are not in their vocabulary.

[Ryzaki]

Lightice_av wrote...

Ryzaki, don't waste your energy on a troll. "Reason" and "rationality" are not in their vocabulary.

But...but...

Fine.

[SirWalliss]

Ryzaki wrote...

SirWalliss wrote...

Ok sinse I'm not gay I only do it missionary? and you call me missinformed? So according to you your only gay for population control?? I'm sorry if I'm stating the obvious, gay is pretty much the dictionary meaning of the word unnatural. Personally I dont care whos gay and who's not as long as it isint shoved on me through games or forums? Dont even try to make the same point of hetero being pushed on you cause thats how normal humans procreate.

Sorry guys the truth hurts...

You said X goes into Y. Seeing as both males and females have Z and you're using that as an excuse obviously not.

Actually the truth is gays in nature probably are for population control. Just like straights are for additional population. What you think humans are here for some great magical purpose or something? 

Oh you are straight! The magical dieties have proclaimed you exist to do X!

Oh you are gay! The magical dieties have proclaimed you exist to do Y!

Modifié par SirWalliss, 25 février 2010 - 10:48 .

[SirWalliss]

Lightice_av wrote...

Ryzaki, don't waste your energy on a troll. "Reason" and "rationality" are not in their vocabulary.

I'm a troll because I dont agree with a few peoples opinion lol.  Love it when someone knows they are wrong so they call you a troll, classic.

BTW I forgot about point Z lol that was kinda funny.

[FlyinElk212]

SirWalliss wrote...

 Personally I dont care whos gay and who's not as long as it isint shoved on me through games or forums? Dont even try to make the same point of hetero being pushed on you cause thats how normal humans procreate.

Sorry guys the truth hurts...

No, you're incorrect, sir. A simple inclusion of another facet of the game isn't "shoving the issue on you". You want to know why? It's because YOU CAN AVOID THE SITUATION IF YOU SO CHOOSE! Just like you can choose to avoid any romantic encounter in Mass Effect! Oh joy!

Don't give us that crap that homosexuals are pushing themselves onto heterosexuals. The truth is that they simply want to be considered as well. They don't mean to have EVERY player of Mass Effect play a homosexual Shepard. They're simply asking that they be given a chance to make THEIR Shepard homosexual.

Let's flip the situation around and say only homosexual relationships existed in ME2. Wouldn't you want to have the chance to have your male Shepard romance Miranda, or Tali? So if you asked Bioware to include that, does that mean you're "shoving your heterosexuality" onto other gamers?

P.S.- I don't understand the Asari argument. Okay, maybe she's female, maybe she's not: BIOWARE STILL HAS A BLATANT LESBIAN ROMANCE IN KELLY-FEMSHEP. End discussion.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 25 février 2010 - 10:53 .

[MPSai]

As a lesbian I find the lesbian romances still a bit... well having unfortunate implications.



That being: Why can you only romance bisexual women? And why are there women the male shepard can romance and not the female, but not vice versa?

[IguanidaeViridisAbsolutus]

Please Ryzaki, I didn't sign up and make my first post on Bioware's forums to be treated like a "brain dead" Iguana to which you constantly respond : "Do you understand, I got supreme logical, you're stupid, so shut up and let me say whatever I want".



So let's talk your language, for fun.

I. (<- Me, IguanidaeViridisAbsolutus)

Think. (<- Act of using my brain, YES I HAVE ONE before you say so)

That. (<- Blah blah blah)

Asari. (<- Blue Alien Chicks in tight fitting combinaisons)

Are (<- To be, plural form)

Neither. (<- It's like "too" or "also", but for the negative)

Male (<- O-> )

Or. (<- I need some aspirins)

Female (<- O-+ )



I don't considered them neither as female than male, and Wikipedia doesn't possess the ultimate truth and knowledge, it's MY opinion, I'm free to think that Asari have the masculine aspect of sexuality which consist of penetrating the other mate psychically instead of physically to repreoduce themselves. They have of course obvious female attributes, but their sexuality is more like "I penetrate my mate to take what I need to reproduce myself" than the more feminine "I let someone penetrate me (soul or body) to let him help me reproduce myself".



Can I think that Asari are neither male or female, or will you continue to blame me because I don't stick to your opinion ?



Then, if you're fighting to have M/M because there already an F/F option, then okay. I'm in, I can even fight with you. I thought you wanted Bioware to make some ultra important decisions which determine the fate of the universe and alternativly the sexuality of the Commander.

I just don't want to be forced to undergo something that I didn't initially wanted, and honestly, I didn't cared about M/M not being present in the game... As I said, it's an RPG Action Game where you must save the universe, not a dating sim where you must find your true love.

Maybe in ME3 they will add some same sex romance... But I remembered having read something about mod letting FemShep or MaleShep dating respectively Ashley and Kaidan... Well... Okay... It's mods... It's not Bioware... Well...



Hell... I don't care finally... I'm OK if Bioware add some same sex romance, I just don't want to see people blaming the game because homosexuality is not represented, it's remind me of the Avatar Affair.

[SirWalliss]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

SirWalliss wrote...

 Personally I dont care whos gay and who's not as long as it isint shoved on me through games or forums? Dont even try to make the same point of hetero being pushed on you cause thats how normal humans procreate.

Sorry guys the truth hurts...

No, you're incorrect, sir. A simple inclusion of another facet of the game isn't "shoving the issue on you". You want to know why? It's because YOU CAN AVOID THE SITUATION IF YOU SO CHOOSE! Just like you can choose to avoid any romantic encounter in Mass Effect! Oh joy!

Don't give us that crap that homosexuals are pushing themselves onto heterosexuals. The truth is that they simply want to be considered as well. They don't mean to have EVERY player of Mass Effect play a homosexual Shepard. They're simply asking that they be given a chance to make THEIR Shepard homosexual.

Let's flip the situation around and say only homosexual relationships existed in ME2. Wouldn't you want to have the chance to have your male Shepard romance Miranda, or Tali? So if you asked Bioware to include that, does that mean you're "shoving your heterosexuality" onto other gamers?

P.S.- I don't understand the Asari argument. Okay, maybe she's female, maybe she's not: BIOWARE STILL HAS A BLATANT LESBIAN ROMANCE IN KELLY-FEMSHEP. End discussion.

I guess I should have clarified, I dont think the gays or pro-gays in this tread should be pushing it, which they are on everyone else.  Call it what you want though I dont have to agree with the whole gay agenda, just like you dont have to agree with me.  Truth be told trying to force Bio to include gay scenes is pushing it.

[Lightice_av]

I'm a troll because I dont agree with a few peoples opinion lol. Love it when someone knows they are wrong so they call you a troll, classic.

You are a troll because you're insulting, aggressive and rude, and don't contribute anything to the discussion but spite and conflict. You enjoy attention gained from harrassing people with little to no justification. And following my own advice, these are the first and last words I ever speak to you.

P.S.- I don't understand the Asari argument. Okay, maybe she's female, maybe she's not

The asari are quite definately female. The Codex outright states it beyond any doubt. "An all-female race." Anybody can read it right there. Has anybody seen anyone using any but feminine pronouns about them lately?

That being: Why can you only romance bisexual women? And why
are there women the male shepard can romance and not the female, but
not vice versa?

 

That at least is understandable. The gays are still a minority, after all. It costs money and time to build an LI subplot. It's easier to just to use a character that already exists for a same-sex option. It's unfortunate maybe, but it's one of the things that Bioware can't be faulted in the matter.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 25 février 2010 - 11:00 .

[Cat Lance]

MPSai wrote...

As a lesbian I find the lesbian romances still a bit... well having unfortunate implications.

That being: Why can you only romance bisexual women? And why are there women the male shepard can romance and not the female, but not vice versa?

TBTH it's simply economical to make the gay option bi. It's more bang for their buck, as it were. They need to be able to justify the zots spent on the character and the pathways for the various relationships. Having the character be dual purpose makes that much easier when talking to the bosses.

[Ryzaki]

Cat Lance wrote...

MPSai wrote...

As a lesbian I find the lesbian romances still a bit... well having unfortunate implications.

That being: Why can you only romance bisexual women? And why are there women the male shepard can romance and not the female, but not vice versa?

TBTH it's simply economical to make the gay option bi. It's more bang for their buck, as it were. They need to be able to justify the zots spent on the character and the pathways for the various relationships. Having the character be dual purpose makes that much easier when talking to the bosses.

That's the case. Same with the MM options. Maybe in time they'll be a large enough gay gamer presence in the industry to make such things economically sound but for now it really isn't.


Also the Codex isn't the absolute truth.


What do you tell your teacher "Hey the novel isn't the absolute truth about the story!!!"

Do you? 

Because that's pretty much what you just said.

Now in simplier terms.

"The Codex. I.E. information about the Mass Effect World by the actual game developers is somehow incorrect." And you are somehow correct despite not having worked on ME?

That's what you're saying.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 février 2010 - 11:03 .