87 réponses à ce sujet

[Taerda]

marshalleck wrote...

You need a loyal squadmate to maintain the weapons that Jacob himself is going to be relying on? What would he gain aside from his own potential death by sabotaging them? That seems really paranoid.

I don't need a loyal squadmate to maintain weapons, but to prevent them from being turned against me. Paranoid? Maybe, but in my mind both the X/O position and Jacob's should be filled by loyal (to me) people. It is the same reason TIM wanted people loyal to him in those positions ... Imagine if I wanted to take Jack up on her Pirate Queen offer; TIM would want a way to get his ship back.

[Jimbe2693]

In the situation it was me, Jacob and Wilson trying to get out the facility alive, tehn all of a sudden some **** takes out Wilson, I would've took her out in the situation.

[The Angry One]

I wouldn't have killed her, but I would have shot her in the kneecaps and interrogated her

[Cutlass Jack]

My feelings on the whole Wilson thing boils down to this. For Wilson to be the culprit some things must be true:

1. Wilson was such a brilliant hacker that he could get something past Miranda, TIM and Cerberus. Yet he wasn't smart enough to program the Mechs not to actually shoot at him, or enter the room he was in. (Not talking about the leg wound which could be faked, but the mechs that entered and shot at him once you got there) Yeah a criminal mastermind, that Wilson.

2. Miranda who by her own words 'is never wrong' left armor and weapons in an unlocked cabinet next to an unrestrained, fully dressed Spectre agent with a history of destroying Cerberus facilities. She was also fooled for two years by Wilson, who lets face it, didn't come off as being all that clever in conversations with him.

Regardless, there was only one person on that station we did not actually see a Mech shooting at, and it was not Wilson.

[marshalleck]

Taerda wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

You need a loyal squadmate to maintain the weapons that Jacob himself is going to be relying on? What would he gain aside from his own potential death by sabotaging them? That seems really paranoid.

I don't need a loyal squadmate to maintain weapons, but to prevent them from being turned against me. Paranoid? Maybe, but in my mind both the X/O position and Jacob's should be filled by loyal (to me) people. It is the same reason TIM wanted people loyal to him in those positions ... Imagine if I wanted to take Jack up on her Pirate Queen offer; TIM would want a way to get his ship back.

Jacob has no reason at all to try and mutiny against you. TIM placed him there to help the mission succeed, not *** it all up.

[DogPark]

These are my unanswered questions:



In Scene 1, Miranda is in TIM's ultra-secret office, talking about how important Sheperd is to their cause, but he's just one man. What if we lose him? TIM tells her to "see to it that we don't lose him." Is the Lazarus project in place BEFORE Sheperd is killed? The project that's designed to bring one man back to life.



In the very next scene, the Collectors attack Normandy, but it's a slow attack, one that allows most of the crew to escape. Sheperd could have easily escaped if he hadn't gone back to force Joker out. His body floats away towards the planet below, but it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere -- it is somehow rescued before that happens ... by Cerberus?



And while I think that there's sufficient evidence to indict Wilson for sabatage of the research station, I wonder what the plan would have been if Wilson hadn't prematurely started things off. Was there some sort of Indoctrination planned for Sheperd after he was fully functional -- but those plans were messed up by a greedy subordinate?

[BellaStrega]

marshalleck wrote...

Jimbe2693 wrote...

God, I hated Miranda's little permanent grin and "I'm always right" attitude when she killed Wilson, If I had the chance I would've pulled the trigger on her right there, but no, Shepard has two options : "If you say so" and "I thought he was just looking for a chance to shoot me in the back"

So you'd execute Miranda without interrogation for the crime of executing someone without interrogation?

To be fair, you do spend the majority of the game shooting at people because they shot at your squad first.

[Internet Kraken]

I refuse to believe that the Illusive Man was not behind the mech attack. I mean, how the hell could Wilson, a member of the medical staff, hack the security mainframe of the station? This is Cerberus. They don't have what I would call lax security.



So either the Illusive Man had Miranda betray the staff or he had Wilson do it and then set it up so that Miranda would be prepared for it. There is enough evidence to support both theories. But the idea that Wilson did this on his own is absurd.

[marshalleck]

DogPark wrote...

These are my unanswered questions:

In Scene 1, Miranda is in TIM's ultra-secret office, talking about how important Sheperd is to their cause, but he's just one man. What if we lose him? TIM tells her to "see to it that we don't lose him." Is the Lazarus project in place BEFORE Sheperd is killed? The project that's designed to bring one man back to life.

In the very next scene, the Collectors attack Normandy, but it's a slow attack, one that allows most of the crew to escape. Sheperd could have easily escaped if he hadn't gone back to force Joker out. His body floats away towards the planet below, but it doesn't burn up in the atmosphere -- it is somehow rescued before that happens ... by Cerberus?

This is all covered in the comic series. Cerberus did not recover Shepard's body after the Collector attack, apparently the Blue Suns did on the employ of the Shadow Broker, who was going to hand Shepard over to the Collectors.

[ABCoLD]

For my money, Wilson was told by TIM to scrub the facility. Miranda was told to wake up Shepard and make sure Wilson didn't make it out. Jacob surviving is completely accidental, and probably the only reason he made it off the base was because he and Miranda had a history.



Wilson's 'fake' distress call was to see if there was literally anyone else alive he had to send the mech's after.



You'll note in the control room where you show up, there are suspiciously few signs of any destroyed mechs or battle damage, just a lot of dead human bodies and Wilson... he purposefully shot himself in the leg in such a way that medigel could fix it easily.



Miranda, knowing TIM's evil master plan had some sort of bypass or some such that let her get around the mechs.



While the facility is purportedly destroyed by TIM, I believe that later in the story there's an aside about recovery teams taking it back... I need to play through the game again to find it.

[Nightwriter]

BellaStrega wrote...

I think this is just one of a handful of holes regarding TIM and Cerberus and associated machinations.

This.

It's still a plot hole, because it wasn't explained. The OP is clever in providing a possible explanation, but the fact that the OP even needs to provide one at all means that the writing couldn't stand for itself in the first place.  

This was never addressed. No clues, no hints. We were given no explanations. They didn't even give us time to speculate. It was swept under the rug almost immediately.

[Frotality]

Nightwriter wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

I think this is just one of a handful of holes regarding TIM and Cerberus and associated machinations.

This.

It's still a plot hole, because it wasn't explained. The OP is clever in providing a possible explanation, but the fact that the OP even needs to provide one at all means that the writing couldn't stand for itself in the first place.  

This was never addressed. No clues, no hints. We were given no explanations. They didn't even give us time to speculate. It was swept under the rug almost immediately.

EXACTLY. when fans have to fill in the explanation for a plot element, something is wrong. same with the endgame; however logical and great your theory the fact remains that the writers left alot of unanswered questions where they shouldnt have. even if it is being saved for ME3 ( a big IF, as it really feels like they thought wilsons betrayal was done with), they could been a bit less blunt in shoving it under the rug and at least hinting that it might resurface later on (like dark energy).

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nightwriter wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

I think this is just one of a handful of holes regarding TIM and Cerberus and associated machinations.

This.

It's still a plot hole, because it wasn't explained. The OP is clever in providing a possible explanation, but the fact that the OP even needs to provide one at all means that the writing couldn't stand for itself in the first place.  

This was never addressed. No clues, no hints. We were given no explanations. They didn't even give us time to speculate. It was swept under the rug almost immediately.

Silly, we were given tons of hints! The "problem" is those hints are inconclusive and lead in a dozen different directions. Plot holes are things where the writers did not intentionally mean to give a gap in the storytelling. When it is intended that the audience not know the answer, then it isn't a plot hole.

The reason that it wasn't given concrete explanation? Because Bioware intended Cerberus to be deliberately vague through the second game setting up to the third. If we were told for certain what happened, then the player would be able to form a much more concrete decision on where exactly they stood with Cerberus, which would definitely not have played into the tone we were given. If Wilson was behind it and Cerberus did the best they could to get Shep to safety, then the player starts thinking, "hey, maybe these Cerberus guys aren't so bad afterall... I mean Miranda and Jacob seem pretty on the level...". If it's clear that this was all a setup made by the Illusive Man to raze the facility and as a combat test for Shepard, then the player starts thinking, "Cerberus scum bags! I will only work for them as long as I have to or else I will be betrayed!"

Instead we're given, "Wait... Wilson wanted more money right? No, he seems to be really excited about the project... oh he's jealous of Miranda... no actually that sounds like he kinda likes her... did he just get shot? That seems awfully convenient... wait, how did he get access to security as a medical guy... OMG MIRANDA JUST SHOT HIM WHATS GOING ON!?!?"

Which makes the player uncomfortable working with Cerberus, but never given enough information to absolutely confirm all those little suspicions.

EDIT: Holy crap formatting hell!

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 24 février 2010 - 09:53 .

[WindOverTuchanka]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

The problem is those hints are inconclusive and lead in a dozen different directions. Plot holes are things where the writers did not intentionally mean to give a gap in the storytelling. When it is intended that the audience not know the answer, then it isn't a plot hole.

The reason that it wasn't given concrete explanation? Because Bioware intended Cerberus to be deliberately vague through the second game setting up to the third.

Instead we're given, "Wait... Wilson wanted more money right? No, he seems to be really excited about the project... oh he's jealous of Miranda... no actually that sounds like he kinda likes her... did he just get shot? That seems awfully convenient... wait, how did he get access to security as a medical guy... OMG MIRANDA JUST SHOT HIM WHATS GOING ON!?!?"

Which makes the player uncomfortable working with Cerberus, but never given enough information to absolutely confirm all those little suspicions.

EDIT: Holy crap formatting hell!

Precisely. TIM could be anything, really, and that is what makes our relations with TIM somewhat interesting. He is feeding me wrong clues, and I am flying the ship that is firewalled by his AI. I know it. He knows I know it. He is several steps ahead, but I am gathering my own evidence and am not jumping to conclusions. He has resurrected himself an adversary, so I trust him to make this game interesting.
Keeps the blood pumping.

Now, onto OP's point: the evidence is inconclusive, but TIM's motivation as presented by OP is shaky. If I were TIM, I would have probably scrubbed the facility upon Lazarus completion. However, turning it into some sort of Shepard's shakedown run seems counterintuitive. He is compromizing his investments this way.

Modifié par WindOverTuchanka, 24 février 2010 - 09:00 .

[MutantSpleen]

Wilson looked guilty as hell. We find him shot in the leg, in a room with a bunch of dead scientists and no mechs to be seen but "they shot him" mere moments before I entered the door.

Next he starts rattling off this big alibi about what he was doing before Jacob even asked him anything. Then hes all "Miranda is traitor!" Shepard says "So why did she help me?" "Oh, uhhh....ok maybe she not a traitor." He just sounded like he was lying through his teeth making it up as he went.

My theory is that Wilson was unhappy how Miranda was getting all the credit for "his project" he was the lead scientist who probably did most of the actual work but she was hogging all the glory. So he probably thought he could take the tech somewhere else and make a ton of money and live like a king. We like to come up with these big conspiracy theories but forget how petty, jealous, and greedy people can be.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 24 février 2010 - 10:55 .

[Cutlass Jack]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Wilson looked guilty as hell. We find him shot in the leg, in a room with a bunch of dead scientists and no mechs to be seen but "they shot him" mere moments before I entered the door.

Next he starts rattling off this big alibi about what he was doing before Jacob even asked him anything. Then hes all "Miranda is traitor!" Shepard says "So why did she help me?" "Oh, uhhh....ok maybe she not a traitor." He just sounded like he was lying through his teeth making it up as he went.

Does any of what you mentioned make Wilson sound like a guy smart enough to get something by TIM or Miranda?

[karabekian77]

How can anything be considered a plot hole until we experience ME3? Do you read two chapters of a book and consider any unanswered questions plot holes before you even get to chapter three?

Modifié par karabekian77, 24 février 2010 - 04:16 .

[Cutlass Jack]

karabekian77 wrote...

How can anything be considered a plot hole until we experience ME3? Do you read two chapters of a book and consider any unanswered questions plot holes before you even get to chapter three?

Call it a hunch, but I think they are going to be too busy in ME3 to revisit this. Kind of like Banes in ME1. Also, I think they purposely wanted to leave enough doubt so the player is forced to make up their own mind exactly who they should trust.

[Jeremy Winston]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

karabekian77 wrote...

How can anything be considered a plot hole until we experience ME3? Do you read two chapters of a book and consider any unanswered questions plot holes before you even get to chapter three?

Call it a hunch, but I think they are going to be too busy in ME3 to revisit this. Kind of like Banes in ME1. Also, I think they purposely wanted to leave enough doubt so the player is forced to make up their own mind exactly who they should trust.

Not really.  You have no choice but to gp along with Cerberus.  Either that or... put the game away.  Trust them or not, it doesn't impact anything, except, perhaps, to help you make your decision regarding the base.  Frankly, TIM always had a reasonable answer to things, even when sending Shepard into a trap.  He was always clear on his goals for Humanity. 

His personal goals are unclear, but his final plea at the end points to a bit of megalomania.

Back to the original topic...

Wilson being killed by Miranda, for me, was a plot device designed to give us an  initial impression of Miranda and has very little to do with the whys and whatfors of the while situation.

Why would TIM kill his lead scientist?  The guys a damn genius, and yes... if he can figure out how to bring back Shepard from death, why can't he be smart enough to hack the local mainframe after two years of being there?

There is also the unexplained early waking up, which might be Wilson later trying to sabatage the situation, or might just be story fluff.  Wilson was excited that Shepard was alive, but we don't know when (if) he turned.

[Arhka]

I wonder, could TIM be Armistan Banes? Banes' name wasn't particularly wide spread in ME1, but it seem to have had a great deal of influence from its impact of the mention in the Citadel. Also, Banes' has a history of "disappearing", thought to be dead but revealed to be alive.

[Srau]

Arhka wrote...

I wonder, could TIM be Armistan Banes? Banes' name wasn't particularly wide spread in ME1, but it seem to have had a great deal of influence from its impact of the mention in the Citadel. Also, Banes' has a history of "disappearing", thought to be dead but revealed to be alive.

Yup, thought BW would catch up on this one in ME2 but this name is nowhere to be found/talked about in the game

[Avissel]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Call it a hunch, but I think they are going to be too busy in ME3 to revisit this. Kind of like Banes in ME1. Also, I think they purposely wanted to leave enough doubt so the player is forced to make up their own mind exactly who they should trust.

except that Banes wasnt a plot hole? Dude is dead.

Wilson was a traiter, He didnt think he was getting enough recognition from Miranda, didnt think he was getting payed enough, how is that not enough for people to figure out he got payed off to Sabotage the place and recover your body?

[MutantSpleen]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

Wilson looked guilty as hell. We find him shot in the leg, in a room with a bunch of dead scientists and no mechs to be seen but "they shot him" mere moments before I entered the door.

Next he starts rattling off this big alibi about what he was doing before Jacob even asked him anything. Then hes all "Miranda is traitor!" Shepard says "So why did she help me?" "Oh, uhhh....ok maybe she not a traitor." He just sounded like he was lying through his teeth making it up as he went.

Does any of what you mentioned make Wilson sound like a guy smart enough to get something by TIM or Miranda?

Yes, I have no doubt that Wilson was a smart guy. He wouldn't have been as high up in Cerberus if he wasn't. However his plans went awry when Shepard, Jacob,and Miranda didn't get killed off. He started to panic and try cover his ass.  People often think their plans are good or foolproof, and by all probabilties Jacob and Miranda should have been taken by surprise and killed. I don't think he even counted on Shepard being up and about.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 24 février 2010 - 05:03 .

[Srau]

Avissel wrote...
except that Banes wasnt a plot hole? Dude is dead.

Xept one thing, we have no clue if he is really dead or not since doc *i don't remember the name* still get blackmailed and the Krogan answers something along "i told Banes you would screw up".

[thegreateski]

I knew that Banes quest was bugged . . .



and to think that I was all set to shotgun him in the face too.