87 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlass Jack]

Avissel wrote...

except that Banes wasnt a plot hole? Dude is dead.

Wilson was a traiter, He didnt think he was getting enough recognition from Miranda, didnt think he was getting payed enough, how is that not enough for people to figure out he got payed off to Sabotage the place and recover your body?

Banes 'death' happened prior to him blackmailing the Doctor. Apparently he got better.

Also, if wanting to be paid more and get more recognition from your boss were a crime, the whole world would be traitors. Every employeee who ever existed feels this way.

So no true sign of guilt there. But you have plenty of direct evidence when talking to him to show he wasn't smart enough to pull anything over on TIM/Miranda. 'Clever' wasn't his strong suit.

[Vanaer]

Marstead wrote...

I
5) Despite the game's largely successful attempts to change gamers' opinions about Cerberus, you have to remember that they were in fact performing vile experiments and are still an extremely shady organization. If you play the game Renegade, we know for a fact that the Illusive Man and Miranda lied outright to Shepard about the treatment of Veetor-they promised he would be returned unharmed after brief questioning, but talking to him on the Flotilla reveals he was tortured and drugged. These are not good people.

Actually that's not entirely true. The doctor tells you Cerberus tried to help him, but did so in an unsophisticated way. She also says their intentions were good, but their methods were too crude. Veetor's being delirious.

[Jeremy Winston]

Banes was reported dead on a ship by a marine that was subsequently killed by a Cerberus thresher maw. Later Banes' body was reported as missing, so we really have no idea if he's dead.

[MutantSpleen]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Avissel wrote...

except that Banes wasnt a plot hole? Dude is dead.

Wilson was a traiter, He didnt think he was getting enough recognition from Miranda, didnt think he was getting payed enough, how is that not enough for people to figure out he got payed off to Sabotage the place and recover your body?

Banes 'death' happened prior to him blackmailing the Doctor. Apparently he got better.

Also, if wanting to be paid more and get more recognition from your boss were a crime, the whole world would be traitors. Every employeee who ever existed feels this way.

So no true sign of guilt there. But you have plenty of direct evidence when talking to him to show he wasn't smart enough to pull anything over on TIM/Miranda. 'Clever' wasn't his strong suit.

He didn't need to fool Miranda, she was supposed to be dead. If
everyone was dead he could make up any story for TIM or maybe he would
go into hiding under protection.  When Miranda and Jacob didn't die as planned he
had to start improvising to cover his own ass.

I doubt he was even doing anything as dastardly as trying to sell Shep to the
Collecters or whatever, he pretty much had working knowledge and tech
on how to bring people back from death that alone was probably worth so
much money that he could write his own ticket anywhere.  Why was he
acting so squirly if he was just a victim of Miranda and TIM's nefarious plot? Why did
he get a look of terror on his face and say "Miranda, you should be..."
Where were the mechs that shot him?. Why did they leave him alive? I
walked in to his room no later than 5 seconds after he stated he had
been shot, it looked pretty quiet in there.

He had a good plan but when it went to hell he had to start lying and that was Wilson's biggest flaw, he was not a good liar under pressure.

The best laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 24 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[Cutlass Jack]

MutantSpleen wrote...

He didn't need to fool Miranda, she was supposed to be dead. If everyone was dead he could make up any story for TIM or maybe he would go into hiding under protection.  When Miranda and Jacob didn't die as planned he
had to start improvising to cover his own ass.

I think you're missing the point. Wilson didn't need to fool Miranda at that point. He needed to fool her for the two years prior. Wilson had to be such an amazing hacker that he could get his entire plan past TIM ("Information is my game") and Miranda ('"I'm never wrong"), yet not be smart enough to program the mechs not to shoot at him or enter the room he was in.

To believe Wilson was behind it you'd have to believe Miranda and TIM were complete idiots. Otherwise they'd have wanted him alive to know exactly how badly Cerberus security was compromised.

[MutantSpleen]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

He didn't need to fool Miranda, she was supposed to be dead. If everyone was dead he could make up any story for TIM or maybe he would go into hiding under protection.  When Miranda and Jacob didn't die as planned he
had to start improvising to cover his own ass.

I think you're missing the point. Wilson didn't need to fool Miranda at that point. He needed to fool her for the two years prior. Wilson had to be such an amazing hacker that he could get his entire plan past TIM ("Information is my game") and Miranda ('"I'm never wrong"), yet not be smart enough to program the mechs not to shoot at him or enter the room he was in.

To believe Wilson was behind it you'd have to believe Miranda and TIM were complete idiots. Otherwise they'd have wanted him alive to know exactly how badly Cerberus security was compromised.

I doubt he planned it out for two years. It was probably a moment along the way, probably fairly recently, when he said "Screw this, I am getting the short end of the stick and I did all the work" At that point he turned traitor. Yes I do think a man that was smart enough to figure out how to bring someone back to life could figure out how to hack the system and cover his tracks.  Some incredibly intelligent people can crack under pressure though.

Also about the mechs, I don't remember them ever shooting at him, just me and Jacob. I remember getting shot and Jacob getting shot, never saw Wilson get shot. I'll have to play it again just to see though.

Miranda had one goal, deliver Shepard intact to TIM.  She may not have cared or had already figured out how he compromised the security and keeping him alive was too big of a risk, like she said. It would have been nice to question him but that one thing doesn't invalidate all the odd things going on with Wilson's story.

[Cutlass Jack]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Also about the mechs, I don't remember them ever shooting at him, just me and Jacob. I remember getting shot and Jacob getting shot, never saw Wilson get shot. I'll have to play it again just to see though.

Yep right after you heal him, 3 mechs enter the control room guns blazing. They'll shoot at him as much as anyone. So they weren't programmed to stay out of the room he was hiding in or not to target him. Actually got them to drop him once just to test it.

So yes, he could have faked the shot to the leg of course, but they were still shooting at him anyways. Also, in his office there were two damaged mechs crawling around. Which seems to imply to me he fought his way past them.

The only person I didn't see a mech fire at was Miranda.

[Nozybidaj]

Louis deGuerre wrote...

This occurred to me but it just makes it worse.
Why ? Because it makes Shepard look stupid accepting everything at face value.
Which is annoying because you feel your character is an idiot.

This comic tells my feelings best

Agreed, they (I think perhaps unintentionally) turned Shepard into a pretty big pile of stupid and spineless by railroading so many of the players decisions and limiting so many obvious dialogue choices throughout the game. 

[Nozybidaj]

FaintlyAlarmed wrote...
Wow. That's kind of harsh on Jacob and Miranda, guys. I don't know about Jacob, but if you have Miranda with you at the end of the game and you choose to blow up the base, Miranda backs you up. And when TIM finally orders her to stop you - she quits Cerberus. Tells him to "consider this her resignation." She may be a b*tch, but she's not a bad person.

I found her sudden and unexpected change in alliegence a little too convienent.  Throughout the game she has this whole "i believe in what Cerberus stands for" thing going on, then you decide to tell TIM off and all of the sudden Miranda is all "yeah me too!"?  I don't buy it, it is one of two things.

1)  A sloppy conclusion to turning Miranda away from Cerberus that is just kinda sprung on the player without any real lead up to it or...
2) A contingency plan between TIM and Miranda that if Shep ever goes "renegade" Miranda is supposed to follow him so that TIM still has a set of eyes and ears on him.

I think it was all a setup by TIM for something in ME3.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 24 février 2010 - 07:32 .

[The Angry One]

Nozybidaj wrote...

2) A contingency plan between TIM and Miranda that if Shep ever goes "renegade" Miranda is supposed to follow him so that TIM still has a set of eyes and ears on him.

I think it was all a setup by TIM for something in ME3.

You know this sounds likely to me.
I don't think that, however pissed, TIM would actually be so short-sighted and stupid as to order Miranda to kill Shep because 1) Shep is still more valuable than 10 Collector bases and 2) Come ON, is ANYONE seeing Miranda taking down Shepard? Anyone? Really?
TIM is the same guy who did not want a kill-switch in Shep's head, and Miranda did. And Miranda still has her sister in Cerberus protection! This heel-turn makes no sense, unless it's TIM's contingency plan.

If Shep won't be a team player - fine. But TIM is still going to keep tabs and make sure Shep's useful in saving humanity.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 février 2010 - 07:40 .

[MutantSpleen]

Nozybidaj wrote...

FaintlyAlarmed wrote...
Wow. That's kind of harsh on Jacob and Miranda, guys. I don't know about Jacob, but if you have Miranda with you at the end of the game and you choose to blow up the base, Miranda backs you up. And when TIM finally orders her to stop you - she quits Cerberus. Tells him to "consider this her resignation." She may be a b*tch, but she's not a bad person.

I found her sudden and unexpected change in alliegence a little too convienent.  Throughout the game she has this whole "i believe in what Cerberus stands for" thing going on, then you decide to tell TIM off and all of the sudden Miranda is all "yeah me too!"?  I don't buy it, it is one of two things.

1)  A sloppy conclusion to turning Miranda away from Cerberus that is just kinda sprung on the player without any real lead up to it or...
2) A contingency plan between TIM and Miranda that if Shep ever goes "renegade" Miranda is supposed to follow him so that TIM still has a set of eyes and ears on him.

I think it was all a setup by TIM for something in ME3.

I hope it is something like number 2, but I don't think so, because if you actually save the base she is still all negative about Cerberus.  She doesn't resign but she doesn't think we did the right thing.  Which had my Renegade who saved the base baffled. So her turn on Cerberus made no sense to me, and felt heavy handed by Bioware.

[Nozybidaj]

MutantSpleen wrote...


I hope it is something like number 2, but I don't think so, because if you actually save the base she is still all negative about Cerberus.  She doesn't resign but she doesn't think we did the right thing.  Which had my Renegade who saved the base baffled. So her turn on Cerberus made no sense to me, and felt heavy handed by Bioware.

Never kept the base, but yeah that is kinda wierd.  Shouldn't she have been happy about it?

[MutantSpleen]

Nozybidaj wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...


I hope it is something like number 2, but I don't think so, because if you actually save the base she is still all negative about Cerberus.  She doesn't resign but she doesn't think we did the right thing.  Which had my Renegade who saved the base baffled. So her turn on Cerberus made no sense to me, and felt heavy handed by Bioware.

Never kept the base, but yeah that is kinda wierd.  Shouldn't she have been happy about it?

Yeah it blew me away but pretty much the whole crew thinks you ****ed up. So much for freedom of choice.

[Nozybidaj]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...


I hope it is something like number 2, but I don't think so, because if you actually save the base she is still all negative about Cerberus.  She doesn't resign but she doesn't think we did the right thing.  Which had my Renegade who saved the base baffled. So her turn on Cerberus made no sense to me, and felt heavy handed by Bioware.

Never kept the base, but yeah that is kinda wierd.  Shouldn't she have been happy about it?

Yeah it blew me away but pretty much the whole crew thinks you ****ed up. So much for freedom of choice.

Well I can see some of them disagreeing with it and some of them not caring, but Miranda in particular shouldn't have been upset by it.  You just gave TIM and Cerberus a pretty powerful weapon, I would think that would get you on her good side.

Except obviously as you pointed out, a heavy handed attempt to show she had changed.

[Jeremy Winston]

Don't get your shorts in a wad, guys.

As pro Cerberus as she was/is.... saving the base simply crossed the line for her. No matter how loyal she is, she has a limit as well for what she's willing to accept on Cerberus' behalf. Saving the base was apparently too much. It doesn't mean she's anti-Cerberus... perhaps she's just anti-TIM.

Modifié par Jeremy Winston, 24 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[MutantSpleen]

Maybe she could have voiced her opinion on that when I was trying to make the decision since she was standing right next to me.



Just show me when she had a change of heart.

[Nozybidaj]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Maybe she could have voiced her opinion on that when I was trying to make the decision since she was standing right next to me.

Just show me when she had a change of heart.

It would have been nice to see it changing throughout the game, as little situations came up she would gradually be coming around to see Cerberus for what they really are.  Instead it is just all of a sudden thrown in your face at the very end.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Nozybidaj wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...


I hope it is something like number 2, but I don't think so, because if you actually save the base she is still all negative about Cerberus.  She doesn't resign but she doesn't think we did the right thing.  Which had my Renegade who saved the base baffled. So her turn on Cerberus made no sense to me, and felt heavy handed by Bioware.

Never kept the base, but yeah that is kinda wierd.  Shouldn't she have been happy about it?

Yeah it blew me away but pretty much the whole crew thinks you ****ed up. So much for freedom of choice.

Well I can see some of them disagreeing with it and some of them not caring, but Miranda in particular shouldn't have been upset by it.  You just gave TIM and Cerberus a pretty powerful weapon, I would think that would get you on her good side.

Except obviously as you pointed out, a heavy handed attempt to show she had changed.

I'm not seeing how it was heavy-handed at all. She supported Cerberus, but if you bring her to Jack's loyalty mission, it's obvious she's in the dark about many of their operations.

The Collector base was just over the line for her. She saw that they were liquidating humans to turn into something horrific and decided that nothing good could come of it. The fact that Cerberus thinks that this is A-OK makes her just throw up her hands and decide to get outta there.

If you save the base, the squad isn't completely against it, I mean, they're not like "You're a ****** Shepard, why'd you do that!?". They're just noticibly uncomfortable and unsure of the idea. Which makes sense. Renegade means doing what needs to be done no matter what, and leaving that thing standing for the "greater good" is a bit of a stomach turner, even if it does end up providing very useful tech to help later. It doesn't mean that taking the Collector Base is in itself the "wrong" decision. It just means your squad is a bit apprehensive about turning the Human Jello Maker into Cerberus HQ 1.

[The Angry One]

Stll wish there was the option to give the base to the Alliance.

That'd REALLY twist TIM's nipples "Yeah, I agreed to preserve the base. Never said I'd give it to YOU. Sucker."

[Jeremy Winston]

Playing high-road Paragon, I was still tempted to keep the base up until TIM did his arm flex along with "Think what this can mean for Humanity" or whatever.



Maybe it woke up Miranda as well.

[Nozybidaj]

The Angry One wrote...

Stll wish there was the option to give the base to the Alliance.
That'd REALLY twist TIM's nipples "Yeah, I agreed to preserve the base. Never said I'd give it to YOU. Sucker."

That option I would have taken, or even giving it to the Council is better than giving it to Cerberus.

[MutantSpleen]

Yeah I saved it just because he said that. Think of what this can do for humanity. I did the same thing when I took out the Council so I don't have a lot of room to judge.

[Acero Azul]

I found miranda's facial expression at the end of the first mission to be kind of evil.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Playing high-road Paragon, I was still tempted to keep the base up until TIM did his arm flex along with "Think what this can mean for Humanity" or whatever.

Maybe it woke up Miranda as well.

My first run was a full paragon run and at the end I probably sat at that decision for a good 10 minutes scratching my head and wondering what the best choice would be.

I couldn't decide so I actually made two saves were I did each once. In retrospect, I think destroying the base is definitely the better option.

Also: Give the base to Alliance or Citadel? Why bother? Knowing the Citadel they'd just sit on it and I do not think the Alliance has the know-how to really utilize it. That's assuming they'd trust you enough to go through the "Nothing ever comes out" Omega relay anyway.

[Jeremy Winston]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Playing high-road Paragon, I was still tempted to keep the base up until TIM did his arm flex along with "Think what this can mean for Humanity" or whatever.

Maybe it woke up Miranda as well.

My first run was a full paragon run and at the end I probably sat at that decision for a good 10 minutes scratching my head and wondering what the best choice would be.

I couldn't decide so I actually made two saves were I did each once. In retrospect, I think destroying the base is definitely the better option.

Also: Give the base to Alliance or Citadel? Why bother? Knowing the Citadel they'd just sit on it and I do not think the Alliance has the know-how to really utilize it. That's assuming they'd trust you enough to go through the "Nothing ever comes out" Omega relay anyway.

If they even believed you, yeah.

Shepard: Ok... I've destroyed the collector threat that you refused to believe existed.  I also have their base, intact, where they were making a reaper.

Council: Ah, yes.  The, uh.. "reapers."  Uh huh.

Shepard: Yep.  Them.  Again.  Like I said before.  Anyhow, let me show you.  It's just a quick trip through the Omega 4 relay.

Council: Ah, yes.  The "Omega-4 relay."  We don't beleive you've actually gone through that.  I don't think we're prepared to risk going with you.  Besides, we're pretty sure that the Omega-4 relay does not lead to Council space, so simply being there might start a war.

Shepard: No, of course it's not council space.  it's... get this... it's at the center of the galaxy!

Council: Ah.  The "Center of the Galaxy."  I think we've heard enough.