Aller au contenu

Photo

Wilson and Cerberus


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
87 réponses à ce sujet

#76
SurfaceBeneath

SurfaceBeneath
  • Members
  • 1 434 messages

Jeremy Winston wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

Playing high-road Paragon, I was still tempted to keep the base up until TIM did his arm flex along with "Think what this can mean for Humanity" or whatever.

Maybe it woke up Miranda as well.


My first run was a full paragon run and at the end I probably sat at that decision for a good 10 minutes scratching my head and wondering what the best choice would be.

I couldn't decide so I actually made two saves were I did each once. In retrospect, I think destroying the base is definitely the better option.

Also: Give the base to Alliance or Citadel? Why bother? Knowing the Citadel they'd just sit on it and I do not think the Alliance has the know-how to really utilize it. That's assuming they'd trust you enough to go through the "Nothing ever comes out" Omega relay anyway.

If they even believed you, yeah.

Shepard: Ok... I've destroyed the collector threat that you refused to believe existed.  I also have their base, intact, where they were making a reaper.

Council: Ah, yes.  The, uh.. "reapers."  Uh huh.

Shepard: Yep.  Them.  Again.  Like I said before.  Anyhow, let me show you.  It's just a quick trip through the Omega 4 relay.

Council: Ah, yes.  The "Omega-4 relay."  We don't beleive you've actually gone through that.  I don't think we're prepared to risk going with you.  Besides, we're pretty sure that the Omega-4 relay does not lead to Council space, so simply being there might start a war.

Shepard: No, of course it's not council space.  it's... get this... it's at the center of the galaxy!

Council: Ah.  The "Center of the Galaxy."  I think we've heard enough.


Haha exactly!

#77
Mnemnosyne

Mnemnosyne
  • Members
  • 859 messages

The Angry One wrote...

Stll wish there was the option to give the base to the Alliance.
That'd REALLY twist TIM's nipples "Yeah, I agreed to preserve the base. Never said I'd give it to YOU. Sucker."


Something like this makes the most sense.  The game limiting your choices to 'give it to Cerberus' and 'destroy it' makes no sense at all, especially when you consider that the only ship that can go to and from that base is the Normandy, and by the end of the game, its crew and even EDI are all loyal to Shepard, not to TIM.  

Obviously Shepard doesn't have the resources to do anything with the base herself, but she could totally take the Council or the Alliance brass or whoever there on the Normandy, and go "there.  THERE is your Reaper!" pointing at the destroyed yet completely intact corpse.  And if they don't listen, if they don't do exactly what she says, then screw you, cause I have the only ship in the galaxy that can travel here.

#78
SurfaceBeneath

SurfaceBeneath
  • Members
  • 1 434 messages
Although I kinda get how there probably should have been more options at the finale.



It was kinda how in ME1 I felt like the decision to save or kill the Rachni was incredibly forced. I mean, seriously, why did I have to make that decision there? Couldn't I have informed the Council of it and let them make it?

#79
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages
Dragon Age and Mass Effect may have different teams but they must come from the same school of false dilemmas because this situation is almost parallel to a similar situation in Dragon Age, where an important piece of irreplacable technology is at stake and your only two options are destroy it, or hand it over to a demented sociopath. Sound familiar?

#80
SurfaceBeneath

SurfaceBeneath
  • Members
  • 1 434 messages
Or how in BDtS how your only options are to let the terrorist go and save a few people or kill the terrorist and let him kill them. Why couldn't I have let him go, but then told Joker to shoot him down?



I congratulate Bioware and forcing the player to make decisions, but I do really wish those choices were less binary.

#81
apk117

apk117
  • Members
  • 153 messages

marshalleck wrote...

Jimbe2693 wrote...

God, I hated Miranda's little permanent grin and "I'm always right" attitude when she killed Wilson, If I had the chance I would've pulled the trigger on her right there, but no, Shepard has two options : "If you say so" and "I thought he was just looking for a chance to shoot me in the back"


So you'd execute Miranda without interrogation for the crime of executing someone without interrogation?


Due process is for ******.

#82
Jeremy Winston

Jeremy Winston
  • Members
  • 647 messages

apk117 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Jimbe2693 wrote...

God, I hated Miranda's little permanent grin and "I'm always right" attitude when she killed Wilson, If I had the chance I would've pulled the trigger on her right there, but no, Shepard has two options : "If you say so" and "I thought he was just looking for a chance to shoot me in the back"


So you'd execute Miranda without interrogation for the crime of executing someone without interrogation?


Due process is for ******.

Odd.. that was Miranda's take as well.  So.. you don't like her because... ?

#83
MutantSpleen

MutantSpleen
  • Members
  • 591 messages

The Angry One wrote...

Dragon Age and Mass Effect may have different teams but they must come from the same school of false dilemmas because this situation is almost parallel to a similar situation in Dragon Age, where an important piece of irreplacable technology is at stake and your only two options are destroy it, or hand it over to a demented sociopath. Sound familiar?


I want my Golems, get to it Branka!

#84
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages

Jeremy Winston wrote...

apk117 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Jimbe2693 wrote...

God, I hated Miranda's little permanent grin and "I'm always right" attitude when she killed Wilson, If I had the chance I would've pulled the trigger on her right there, but no, Shepard has two options : "If you say so" and "I thought he was just looking for a chance to shoot me in the back"


So you'd execute Miranda without interrogation for the crime of executing someone without interrogation?


Due process is for ******.

Odd.. that was Miranda's take as well.  So.. you don't like her because... ?


Cause he didn't get to do the shootin'?

#85
Jeremy Winston

Jeremy Winston
  • Members
  • 647 messages

The Angry One wrote...

Jeremy Winston wrote...

apk117 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Jimbe2693 wrote...

God, I hated Miranda's little permanent grin and "I'm always right" attitude when she killed Wilson, If I had the chance I would've pulled the trigger on her right there, but no, Shepard has two options : "If you say so" and "I thought he was just looking for a chance to shoot me in the back"


So you'd execute Miranda without interrogation for the crime of executing someone without interrogation?


Due process is for ******.

Odd.. that was Miranda's take as well.  So.. you don't like her because... ?


Cause he didn't get to do the shootin'?

Heh.. yeah.

In fact, I'm surprised there isn't a renegade option to refuse to give the medi-gel to WIlson.  I mean... you're in a firefight, it's your ONLY healing, and you don't know what's going on.

"I'm sorry, Wilson.  I may need this later.  You'll have to make due.  Here's an advil."

#86
Weskerr

Weskerr
  • Members
  • 1 538 messages

Marstead wrote...

I think BioWare gets a big round of applause for successfully writing away everyone's suspicion of Cerberus.

Everywhere I look, I see Wilson's motives listed as a potential "plot hole"; even the Wiki doesn't cast a shred of doubt on whether he was actually a traitor. If you look at the rest of the game, and the way both Miranda and the Illusive Man behave, it makes a lot more sense if the entire opening level was an intentional "fire course" built to test Shepard's abilities:

1) The incident occurs shortly after Shepard wakes up consciously for the first time.
2) Miranda does not hesitate for a moment to kill Wilson, and handwaves him as a traitor. The Illusive Man does similar handwaving when he mentions Wilson.
3) The Illusive Man's comments on the Mission Complete screen mention all evidence of the Lazarus Project facility being destroyed. If this was the intent, it would make sense to loose mechs on the involved scientists, kill its lead scientist, and all the while test Shepard's mettle.
4) Jacob & Miranda state pretty straight away on the shuttle that little additional evidence of Shepard's identity is necessary because of his performance on the ship.
5) Despite the game's largely successful attempts to change gamers' opinions about Cerberus, you have to remember that they were in fact performing vile experiments and are still an extremely shady organization. If you play the game Renegade, we know for a fact that the Illusive Man and Miranda lied outright to Shepard about the treatment of Veetor-they promised he would be returned unharmed after brief questioning, but talking to him on the Flotilla reveals he was tortured and drugged. These are not good people.

I don't think that Jacob was in on the deception; just Miranda and the Illusive Man. I think Miranda remains an "enemy" of sorts until the very end of the game, when you win her loyalty on the Collector Ship.

tl;dr:Wilson wasn't a traitor and he didn't matter; it makes sense for Cerberus to have done everything at the beginning of the game on purpose.


So...the fact that Cerberus is a bad, immoral organization makes it impossible for any of their own agents to turn rogue for any reason whatsoever? Your argument is a non sequitur. You've also ommited all of the evidence that makes Wilson the prime suspect such as his personal logs, the fact that he has clearance to the security mechs despite being apart of the medical devision, and the suspicious way he claims that the mechs shot him, but when you find him there are no mechs to be seen anywhere.

Let me address each of your points.

1. Wrong. It is not the first time Shepard wakes up. He wakes up once before, quite conscious, before he's put to sleep again with sedatives. I don't think the incident occurs shortly after Shepard wakes up. I think the chronology is 1. Facility is attacked. 2. Shepard wakes up to the sound of Miranda's voice.

2. Miranda doesn't hesitate to kill Wilson because she knows that he's responsible for the facility's mechs being hacked to fire upon Cerberus personell. Even before she pulls the trigger when bumping into Wilson, you can see her facial expression change from neutrality to an angry scowl as she's looking directly at Wilson.

3. I can't comment. I need to read the mission report again.

4. Because Shepard's performance in battle against the hacked mechs was satisfactory doesn't mean Cerberus was responsible for attacking its own facility. In fact, it makes little sense for the Illusive Man, after investing most of his resources into bringing Shepard back to life and rebuilding the Normandy, to risk killing Shepard. There are much less risky - and better - ways to evaluate Shepard's abilities.

5. You're claiming that Mass Effect 2 has succesfuly convinced gamers that Cerberus is actually not as bad as it was made out to be in ME1 without providing any evidence to back up your claim. The remainder of your 5th point is irrelevant in terms of your argument. The fact that Cerberus is an unethical organization does not mean that they're responsible for disrupting the Lazarus Project.

Modifié par Weskerr, 24 février 2010 - 09:52 .


#87
apk117

apk117
  • Members
  • 153 messages

Jeremy Winston wrote...

apk117 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Jimbe2693 wrote...

God, I hated Miranda's little permanent grin and "I'm always right" attitude when she killed Wilson, If I had the chance I would've pulled the trigger on her right there, but no, Shepard has two options : "If you say so" and "I thought he was just looking for a chance to shoot me in the back"


So you'd execute Miranda without interrogation for the crime of executing someone without interrogation?


Due process is for ******.

Odd.. that was Miranda's take as well.  So.. you don't like her because... ?


I never said I didn't like Miranda! She's one of my favorite characters. And I do wish I could've personally killed that snake Wilson. :devil:

#88
Urazz

Urazz
  • Members
  • 2 445 messages
I always figured Wilson got bought out by the Shadow Broker or the Collectors or something.