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Masculinity of female Shepard


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#226
rolltide123

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JMKnave wrote...

rolltide123 wrote...
I'm not being sexist I'm a girl.


Just because your female doesn't mean you can't be sexist. In fact, saying something like this makes you seem sexist.

And I happen to like Jennifer Hale's voice acting. Suits the character perfectly. She's an alliance soldier after all.


Gosh, I all I wanted to know was if they liked the voice and if they thought she was too masculine or if it just fit her character.  I am not sexist I think a woman can do what ever she wants. I just don't like the voice on my character.

#227
The Angry One

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Nightwriter wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It is not sexist to want your feminine character to express femininity.


Define femininity.


You first. Image IPB

Go on, then. I'm curious.


I'm not the one expecting anyone to be beholden to it, so no. :wizard:

#228
The Angry One

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rolltide123 wrote...

Gosh, I all I wanted to know was if they liked the voice and if they thought she was too masculine or if it just fit her character.  I am not sexist I think a woman can do what ever she wants. I just don't like the voice on my character.



Well that comes down to personal taste, not the voice being particularily masculine or inappropriate.
It would be nice if they provided a voice for all preferences but that'd blow the budget, that's why most RPGs have mute main characters I guess.

#229
Isaantia

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FemShep is a leader and she's a woman. Therefore she is feminine.



Feminine comes in just as many different variances as masculine does. All women are not the same just as all men are not the same.



Shepard is a specific character with a specific personality type no matter if Shepard is male or female. Thats just the way it is.


#230
Sialater

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The Angry One wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It is not sexist to want your feminine character to express femininity.


Define femininity.


You first. Image IPB

Go on, then. I'm curious.


I'm not the one expecting anyone to be beholden to it, so no. :wizard:


The definition of femininity:  You ALWAYS pee sitting down?

Nope... not even that works...

Uh.....

You have boobs?

Nope.... (I'm watching LOST, don't think Hurley qualifies as "feminine.")


I got nothin'.

#231
rolltide123

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Luc0s wrote...

rolltide123 wrote...

I don't know if any one else thought it was weird that femal shep and male shep had the same lines
and body positioning.
In my opinion the female Shepard was strange to play because her voice and the way she carried herself was
so manly. It was probaly meant for her to be very masculine but it was weird to me.
Her voice annoyed me so much the first  I heard it that I rerolled as a guy.

So the point of all that rambling was did you find femal Shepard really masculine and didn't like it?
OR
Thought it fit the character and was good?


I made a thread about this a few days/weeks ago with exactly the same statement and opinion as you. The topic became a flame-war because a lot of angry femShep-mancers jumped on my back and attacked me for my opinion being sexist and that kind of bullsh-. I see the same is happening all over again in this thread.

Seriously dude, femShep is holy on this forum. It's better not to question her or else all femShep players will be upset, and believe me, A LOT of posters on this forum are femShep players.


Haha! Thanks for the update bro. I happen to be a girl and I like the femShep character I just don't like the voice.
I didn't know it was so controversial.?

#232
Mariquis

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Oh god. I'm going to regret getting into this thread. I just know it.



I think this thread digressed into one real point of contention. What masculinity is and what femininity is (and whether Shepard is either). The ideas of masculinity and femininity are almost entirely social constructions. Some things can be attributed to males moreso than females (certain spatial task performances) and something moreso to females than males (certain language task performances). And even in the scientific literature they are STILL arguing over whether this is significantly different between genders. But personality traits, styles of dress, etc. are not -- they are social constructions, perpetuated by the society which the person has been shaped by. It's really hard to sort out what is caused by biology and what is caused by environment when they both affect and are effected by each other. And this is something that is not going to be changed except by passing time and relinquishing of old stereotypes. In order to properly classify it, in my opinion, you would need to try and find separations in which there are significant differences between groups that are larger than the usual differences between individuals. We can't find this with masculinity and femininity (why is that word so hard to type--!).



In other words we cannot accurately 'generalize' (what an oxymoron, I don't know how else to phrase it) unless the differences between groups are more significant than the differences between individuals.



So the statement 'Shepard is masculine' is both correct and incorrect. By the current values held by western society, yes. She is masculine. But masculinity is a completely arbitrary title/designation. So the argument to this is that, no-- she's not masculine she is simply a women who carries traits which are, incorrectly, dubbed masculine by current societal values when they should simply be described as 'virtuous' or 'soldier-like' (however you want to call her).



As for the armor issue. I wondered about the breast-plates myself. But since I kept the main body of my armor dark black, I didn't even notice there was a seam in-between the plates. In which case I think that would be a structural weakness since a seam would be waaaay easier to penetrate than a solid plate. The DA:O armor had the right idea, in that case, but damn that helmet!! I wore it to freedom's progress when Tali first recognized me and I was really confused when she somehow recognized it was me in that psychedelic armor (which made me worry it said a lot about my choices/outfitting in the last game haha)

#233
The Angry One

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Protip: You named the topic 'Masculinity of female Shepard', not 'I don't really like femShep's voice'.

#234
rolltide123

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enormousmoonboots wrote...

rolltide123 wrote...

I'm not Sexist. I'm a GIRL.

The fact that you are presumably old enough to buy this game for yourself and plan a career path and yet, think this statement is valid distrubs me.

Look, I get what you're trying to say. You're disappoint that you can't recreate yourself in Mass Effect. And, well...so? Mass Effect isn't the Sims. You're not really supposed to recreate yourself. You have the option of cobbling together a face that miiight bear passing resemblance to your own (and the success stories of the ME face creator are a rare bird indeed compared to the failures), but you still have limited control over Shepard's actions. This isn't a sandbox game, it's an RPG.

I don't understand what you're complaining about, honestly. I'm a woman, and I goddamn love that Femshep is a heroine that doesn't sway her hips madly like FemRevan or Exile. I love that there's no tacked-on 'girly' animations or comments.

You want a game with a stereotypically feminine female character? Go play any other game with a female major character. I'll take my female space marine and be goddamn proud of it.


Ok I have said so dumb stuff in this forum but **** I like the character I just do not like the voice. Oh my goodness!!
This is so funny:O:O. Yes, randomly rambled about things that I felt were strange with Femshep but All they attacks and seriousness is rediculuse. I just wanted to know if you liked the voice.:o:O:O:O

#235
BellaStrega

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rolltide123 wrote...

How does me not liking a voice on MY character because it is very deep and masculine sexist.
I didn't say I didn't like it on other girls I just said.
I didn't like it because it was too deep for my personal taste and not how I thought my Shepard would sound.
Why would I be Sexist against my own sex???


Jennifer Hale is a woman. Her voice is Fem!Shep's voice. Are you with me so far?

You're judging Hale's femininity and womanhood on the basis of how deep her voice sounds to you. You're calling her manly and saying that her voice is unsuitable for a female character. This is sexist.

I  don't know why you personally would say sexist things. That's something you'll have to come to terms with yourself.

#236
Taerda

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Mariquis wrote...

Oh god. I'm going to regret getting into this thread. I just know it.

I think this thread digressed into one real point of contention. What masculinity is and what femininity is (and whether Shepard is either). The ideas of masculinity and femininity are almost entirely social constructions. Some things can be attributed to males moreso than females (certain spatial task performances) and something moreso to females than males (certain language task performances). And even in the scientific literature they are STILL arguing over whether this is significantly different between genders. But personality traits, styles of dress, etc. are not -- they are social constructions, perpetuated by the society which the person has been shaped by. It's really hard to sort out what is caused by biology and what is caused by environment when they both affect and are effected by each other. And this is something that is not going to be changed except by passing time and relinquishing of old stereotypes. In order to properly classify it, in my opinion, you would need to try and find separations in which there are significant differences between groups that are larger than the usual differences between individuals. We can't find this with masculinity and femininity (why is that word so hard to type--!).

In other words we cannot accurately 'generalize' (what an oxymoron, I don't know how else to phrase it) unless the differences between groups are more significant than the differences between individuals.

So the statement 'Shepard is masculine' is both correct and incorrect. By the current values held by western society, yes. She is masculine. But masculinity is a completely arbitrary title/designation. So the argument to this is that, no-- she's not masculine she is simply a women who carries traits which are, incorrectly, dubbed masculine by current societal values when they should simply be described as 'virtuous' or 'soldier-like' (however you want to call her).

As for the armor issue. I wondered about the breast-plates myself. But since I kept the main body of my armor dark black, I didn't even notice there was a seam in-between the plates. In which case I think that would be a structural weakness since a seam would be waaaay easier to penetrate than a solid plate. The DA:O armor had the right idea, in that case, but damn that helmet!! I wore it to freedom's progress when Tali first recognized me and I was really confused when she somehow recognized it was me in that psychedelic armor (which made me worry it said a lot about my choices/outfitting in the last game haha)


/end thread. Thank you Professor:wizard:

#237
Nightwriter

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The Angry One wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

It is not sexist to want your feminine character to express femininity.


Define femininity.


You first. Image IPB

Go on, then. I'm curious.


I'm not the one expecting anyone to be beholden to it, so no. :wizard:


?

Really, I hardly expect you to be beholden to my definition of feminity simply becaus I am defending the OP against accusations of sexism.

I really am only curious. Expressing your opinion of what femininity is is not the same as expecting others to be beholden to that opinion. These are the forums. Just tell me what you think, for the hell of it, and I will tell you what I think, for the hell of it. Doesn't have to be an argument.

#238
Sharn01

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The Angry One wrote...

Protip: You named the topic 'Masculinity of female Shepard', not 'I don't really like femShep's voice'.



#239
BellaStrega

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Luc0s wrote...

That still doesn't give you a free-pass to call people sexist for their opinion. Just point me out where the topic-starter is being sexist. You can't, because she isn't. You're just jumping to conclusions.

No one asks for a stereotypical femShep (atleast I don't), but that doesn't withold me from feeling that there is something out of place with femShep, though I still can't puth my finger on what it really is. Maybe her animations? Maybe her deep monotone voice? Who knows. But I know femShep isn't a realistic female soldier. That role would go to Ashley. She's a female soldier and I never had the feeling there was something out of place with her character. How come I DO have this feeling with femShep?

So yeah, explain me this. Why does femShep feel out of place while Ashley doesn't?


Fem!Shep doesn't feel out of place to me.

Also, you're acting so enraged and hurt that anyone would call you sexist. You make it sound like being called out on sexism is worse than saying sexist things. This is such a ludicrous proposition it's not even funny. 

#240
Mariquis

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rolltide123 wrote...

enormousmoonboots wrote...

rolltide123 wrote...

I'm not Sexist. I'm a GIRL.

The fact that you are presumably old enough to buy this game for yourself and plan a career path and yet, think this statement is valid distrubs me.

Look, I get what you're trying to say. You're disappoint that you can't recreate yourself in Mass Effect. And, well...so? Mass Effect isn't the Sims. You're not really supposed to recreate yourself. You have the option of cobbling together a face that miiight bear passing resemblance to your own (and the success stories of the ME face creator are a rare bird indeed compared to the failures), but you still have limited control over Shepard's actions. This isn't a sandbox game, it's an RPG.

I don't understand what you're complaining about, honestly. I'm a woman, and I goddamn love that Femshep is a heroine that doesn't sway her hips madly like FemRevan or Exile. I love that there's no tacked-on 'girly' animations or comments.

You want a game with a stereotypically feminine female character? Go play any other game with a female major character. I'll take my female space marine and be goddamn proud of it.


Ok I have said so dumb stuff in this forum but **** I like the character I just do not like the voice. Oh my goodness!!
This is so funny:O:O. Yes, randomly rambled about things that I felt were strange with Femshep but All they attacks and seriousness is rediculuse. I just wanted to know if you liked the voice.:o:O:O:O


Haha I wasn't responding to you at all just to clarify, sorry.  I was more responding to like... everyone else in this thread, on both sides. XD  To be fair though if you name a thread 'the masculinity of femshep' most people are going to discuss just that.

#241
crimsonrhodelia

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To answer the OP's question, I've gotten used to the voice, but I had never played a game with a voiced PC before so I was used to my characters having my voice. Hale's Shep voice is pitched lower than my own, which took me out of the moment a little bit. I love the voiced PC aspect of ME now, it wouldn't be anywhere near as cinematic without it, but I have to admit that I didn't miss PC voicing in DAO at all.

#242
Mariquis

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Taerda wrote...

Mariquis wrote...

Oh god. I'm going to regret getting into this thread. I just know it.

I think this thread digressed into one real point of contention. What masculinity is and what femininity is (and whether Shepard is either). The ideas of masculinity and femininity are almost entirely social constructions. Some things can be attributed to males moreso than females (certain spatial task performances) and something moreso to females than males (certain language task performances). And even in the scientific literature they are STILL arguing over whether this is significantly different between genders. But personality traits, styles of dress, etc. are not -- they are social constructions, perpetuated by the society which the person has been shaped by. It's really hard to sort out what is caused by biology and what is caused by environment when they both affect and are effected by each other. And this is something that is not going to be changed except by passing time and relinquishing of old stereotypes. In order to properly classify it, in my opinion, you would need to try and find separations in which there are significant differences between groups that are larger than the usual differences between individuals. We can't find this with masculinity and femininity (why is that word so hard to type--!).

In other words we cannot accurately 'generalize' (what an oxymoron, I don't know how else to phrase it) unless the differences between groups are more significant than the differences between individuals.

So the statement 'Shepard is masculine' is both correct and incorrect. By the current values held by western society, yes. She is masculine. But masculinity is a completely arbitrary title/designation. So the argument to this is that, no-- she's not masculine she is simply a women who carries traits which are, incorrectly, dubbed masculine by current societal values when they should simply be described as 'virtuous' or 'soldier-like' (however you want to call her).

As for the armor issue. I wondered about the breast-plates myself. But since I kept the main body of my armor dark black, I didn't even notice there was a seam in-between the plates. In which case I think that would be a structural weakness since a seam would be waaaay easier to penetrate than a solid plate. The DA:O armor had the right idea, in that case, but damn that helmet!! I wore it to freedom's progress when Tali first recognized me and I was really confused when she somehow recognized it was me in that psychedelic armor (which made me worry it said a lot about my choices/outfitting in the last game haha)


/end thread. Thank you Professor:wizard:


Anytime ;)

#243
The Angry One

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Nightwriter wrote...

Really, I hardly expect you to be beholden to my definition of feminity simply becaus I am defending the OP against accusations of sexism.

I really am only curious. Expressing your opinion of what femininity is is not the same as expecting others to be beholden to that opinion. These are the forums. Just tell me what you think, for the hell of it, and I will tell you what I think, for the hell of it. Doesn't have to be an argument.


That's the thing. I don't think femininity is so easily defined. Nor is masculinity.
You can describe traits that are normally associated with either through sociatal bias, aggression is considered masculine for instance, and empathy feminine. But these are *not* masculine/feminine traits by themselves.

#244
wizardryforever

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The Angry One wrote...

Protip: You named the topic 'Masculinity of female Shepard', not 'I don't really like femShep's voice'.


It's funny you should mention that, because if she had named it that, it would have devolved into a bunch of Hale lovers flaming her for not sharing their opinion.  That discussion would probably be even more moronic than this one has been.

#245
rolltide123

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wizardryforever wrote...

rolltide123 wrote...



The OP said in her first post that Shepard's stance is one of several traits that she finds too manly.

 I meant I don't like it in my image of Shepard. After seeing a male shepard stand exactly the same way it was odd to me. How has me saying I find it strange that they stand the same way and its odd to me.
All I wanted to know is if other people thought that and if they thought the voice was to deep.
How does that make me sexist just because I thought it was weird and the voice didn't my character's persona.


It doesn't specifically, people just like to jump to conclusions.  Most of this thread is people responding to others, not to you specifically.  Though you did open the proverbial can of worms with this thread.

PS.  War Eagle!


I didn't know it was such a big deal(proverbial can of worms). I thought it was a valid question, I didn't relize it would start such a big fuss. I didn't even thinik I'd get more then a page of resposes. God I was dumb! :happy:

#246
The Angry One

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wizardryforever wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Protip: You named the topic 'Masculinity of female Shepard', not 'I don't really like femShep's voice'.


It's funny you should mention that, because if she had named it that, it would have devolved into a bunch of Hale lovers flaming her for not sharing their opinion.  That discussion would probably be even more moronic than this one has been.


Assumptions are like asses. Everybody has one and it begins with 'ass'. Yeah.
Topic's on Hale/Meer's voice are common so of course there'd be a little cynicsm involved.
The fact remains however that she's going on and on about "oh hey I just didn't like the voice" when they topic title says differently.

#247
DaeJi

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If BioWare would just give her different animations from the male Shepard, I think that more people would find her feminine.

#248
tmelange

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rolltide123 wrote...

I don't know if any one else thought it was weird that femal shep and male shep had the same lines
and body positioning.
In my opinion the female Shepard was strange to play because her voice and the way she carried herself was
so manly. It was probaly meant for her to be very masculine but it was weird to me.
Her voice annoyed me so much the first  I heard it that I rerolled as a guy.

So the point of all that rambling was did you find femal Shepard really masculine and didn't like it?
OR
Thought it fit the character and was good?


Her voice to me sounded very contrived, like she was trying hard to sound tough, or for lack of a better word "butch". Though I've seen many people laud JH's voice-acting in this game, I hated it, because while I thought she was much better on inflection than male Shep, her tone threw me completely out of the game, it sounded so fake to me.

Modifié par tmelange, 24 février 2010 - 03:17 .


#249
Sialater

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DaeJi wrote...

If BioWare would just give her different animations from the male Shepard, I think that more people would find her feminine.


Her legs close when she stands up.  Which is more than I can say for the girls in DA:O.  Love the game, just want the girls' legs to, you know, do what girls' legs do when they walk.  (I don't know, I don't watch myself walk!)


It's a game.  Fill in the blanks with your imagination. 

#250
DaeJi

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Sialater wrote...

Her legs close when she stands up.  Which is more than I can say for the girls in DA:O.  Love the game, just want the girls' legs to, you know, do what girls' legs do when they walk.  (I don't know, I don't watch myself walk!)


It's a game.  Fill in the blanks with your imagination. 


Personally, I'm fine with her. The animations are a little jarring, but I stop caring really quickly (except for the way her head flops to the side).