331 réponses à ce sujet

[Jalem001]

The Angry One wrote...

Jalem001 wrote...

I would argue that your position is one due to training.  Modern day political corectness makes it virtually sexist to point out anything other then physical differences in the genders for fear that difference equals inequality.  However that more implies that the person who is offended simply doesn't value the traits in question as equal imo.

I agree that difference in gender is more than just physical, however the traits to be a soldier can be found in both genders, and that Shep, as someone who's been made strong and determined through life experience and training is totally suited to the role, male or female.

Not much I can do here other then poke at the language (My impluse is to say that you can find the traits in individuals, certainly, but its not common in general.  However I know your stance so your intention was probably not to make a point of individuals). 

No sense in carrying this on.  Until they make a machine or we talk to God just gonna have to disagree on which gender has which traits.

[Kreidian]

Jalem001 wrote...

Physical Aggression and Strength are two male associated things as well.  Confidence is not a trait I would associate with either gender.

Wait, you consider Physical Aggression a male trait? Clearly you haven't dated a lot of women.

The fact is individual tendencies to to outweigh  male/female generalization but such a huge margin that any male or female centric assumptions are inherently flawed.

[Forest03]

Female Shepard in bulky, protective yet still curvy N7 armor is still far more sensible than Miranda and Samara (or Jack for that matter) leaving their perfectly symmetrical silicone orbs exposed to the freezing temperatures of deep space or the deadly fire of intense combat.



I agree that her animation is a little stiff though. Many 3D games these days employ skeletal animation based on a single, shared database of motion-captured frames. It wouldn't surprise me if BioWare's animators hired a man to model Shepar'ds movements and used those recordings for both the male and female Shepards. There's very little swagger or suppleness compared to Samara's or Miranda's animations, for example. They could have adjusted that, but hey, she's a soldier. She's meant to be rough, steely, and reserved.



As for her voice, I found it perfectly natural and befitting her character. It is deeper than the average woman's voice, but still noticeably female.

[ladyshara]

Kreidian wrote...
I gotta say, I actually found femshep to be insanely sexy in her new armor.

Maybe I'm just weird like that.

This. *sigh* Ohhhh Shepard. 

[The Angry One]

Tyreal42a wrote...

Maybe FemShep should have an option to go into battle wearing a dress.

Besides, if Kaidan and even ManShep can get away with wearing pink armour, FemShep can get away with a little perceived manliness.

Hai gais where's the battle? 

[DeadRed1488]

TeenZombie wrote...

Israeli citizens must complete two years of military service when they turn eighteen, whether they are male or female. Here's a gallery of pictures of female Israeli soldiers, do they look "masculine" or less feminine simply because they're soldiers?

http://www.rachelpap...7131/thumb.html

That's exactly the kind of post I was hoping to see. You pretty much captured the gist of my argument.

[Schroing]

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Great to see there's so much hate toward the OP for expressing the opinion that masculine women aren't to his taste. I'm inclined to agree with him. Has nothing to do with sexism, and it's ridiculous that the word sexism has even been brought up. Its just a personal opinion. You can try and argue all day that femshep's traits aren't masculine, but not many people will agree with you.

The fact that you're labeling them as masculine traits is what's being called as sexist.
Because...it is.

The idea of sexism is a joke, women and men are different, people need to deal with it.

They're different in many, many ways, but not the ways you're claiming that they are. None of the traits that femshep exhibits, unless you go renegade, could be considered biologically masculine features.

[Jalem001]

Kreidian wrote...

Jalem001 wrote...

Physical Aggression and Strength are two male associated things as well.  Confidence is not a trait I would associate with either gender.

Wait, you consider Physical Aggression a male trait? Clearly you haven't dated a lot of women.

The fact is individual tendencies to to outweigh  male/female generalization but such a huge margin that any male or female centric assumptions are inherently flawed.

Pfft.  They only get violent because they know we won't get violent back.  Like poking a well trained dog with a stick.

Well trained indeed. 

[Schroing]

DeadRed1488 wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Israeli citizens must complete two years of military service when they turn eighteen, whether they are male or female. Here's a gallery of pictures of female Israeli soldiers, do they look "masculine" or less feminine simply because they're soldiers?

http://www.rachelpap...7131/thumb.html

That's exactly the kind of post I was hoping to see. You pretty much captured the gist of my argument.

...I don't think you can read.

[The Angry One]

DeadRed1488 wrote...

The idea of sexism is a joke, women and men are different, people need to deal with it.

Difference is not the issue.
Declaring incapability because of difference is sexism.

[rolltide123]

I'm not Sexist. I'm a GIRL.
HELL, tons of people would say I'm masculine. I play sports very competitively and am very physical when I play sports. I'm going into the military to be a fighter pilot, as well.
I just simply do not like the deepness of the voice; it bugs me.

Modifié par rolltide123, 24 février 2010 - 01:27 .

[Tyreal42a]

The Angry One wrote...

Tyreal42a wrote...

Maybe FemShep should have an option to go into battle wearing a dress.

Besides, if Kaidan and even ManShep can get away with wearing pink armour, FemShep can get away with a little perceived manliness.

Hai gais where's the battle? 

Well, Conan the Barbarian and the men in the 300 movie went into battle with less armour than that, so what could go wrong?!

Oh wait, in 300, they lost. Stupid, bare-chested idiots.

[DeadRed1488]

Schroing wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Great to see there's so much hate toward the OP for expressing the opinion that masculine women aren't to his taste. I'm inclined to agree with him. Has nothing to do with sexism, and it's ridiculous that the word sexism has even been brought up. Its just a personal opinion. You can try and argue all day that femshep's traits aren't masculine, but not many people will agree with you.

The fact that you're labeling them as masculine traits is what's being called as sexist.
Because...it is.

The idea of sexism is a joke, women and men are different, people need to deal with it.

They're different in many, many ways, but not the ways you're claiming that they are. None of the traits that femshep exhibits, unless you go renegade, could be considered biologically masculine features.

I do believe deep voice is perceived as masculine, whether it biologically means anything or not. Also, since when are we talking about biologically? What about culturally associated gender traits?

[Schroing]

rolltide123 wrote...

I'm not Sexist. I'm a GIRL.

Do you really not understand that that doesn't matter? What's next, you have black friends so it's cool?

[DeadRed1488]

The Angry One wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

The idea of sexism is a joke, women and men are different, people need to deal with it.

Difference is not the issue.
Declaring incapability because of difference is sexism.

Well I never said said femshep was incapable. There's no reason she can't be more feminine and still be capable.

[The Angry One]

DeadRed1488 wrote...

I do believe deep voice is perceived as masculine, whether it biologically means anything or not. Also, since when are we talking about biologically? What about culturally associated gender traits?

It depends what kind of deep voice we're talking about. Plenty of women have deep voices.
FemShep's voice is a little deep, but again it fits the character. Certainly not as deep as some I've heard and certainly not masculine.

[Herr Uhl]

rolltide123 wrote...

I'm not Sexist. I'm a GIRL.

And?

[Kreidian]

The Angry One wrote...

Tyreal42a wrote...

Maybe FemShep should have an option to go into battle wearing a dress.

Besides, if Kaidan and even ManShep can get away with wearing pink armour, FemShep can get away with a little perceived manliness.

Hai gais where's the battle? 

That would be pretty awesome to see actually. Totally impractical, but damn sexy!

[The Angry One]

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Well I never said said femshep was incapable. There's no reason she can't be more feminine and still be capable.

I know I was just clarifying my position on sexism.
Also, I don't see how she needs to be any more feminine... well aside from the dancing. But that's not strictly a masculine/feminine issue as ManShep needs a better dance too other than that.. that.. old man shuffle.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[Schroing]

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Great to see there's so much hate toward the OP for expressing the opinion that masculine women aren't to his taste. I'm inclined to agree with him. Has nothing to do with sexism, and it's ridiculous that the word sexism has even been brought up. Its just a personal opinion. You can try and argue all day that femshep's traits aren't masculine, but not many people will agree with you.

The fact that you're labeling them as masculine traits is what's being called as sexist.
Because...it is.

The idea of sexism is a joke, women and men are different, people need to deal with it.

They're different in many, many ways, but not the ways you're claiming that they are. None of the traits that femshep exhibits, unless you go renegade, could be considered biologically masculine features.

I do believe deep voice is perceived as masculine, whether it biologically means anything or not. Also, since when are we talking about biologically? What about culturally associated gender traits?

Culturally associated gender traits are the definition of sexism. Do you know what the word means? 
And deep voices...I don't really think Shepard's voice is all that deep. You can close your eyes and still clearly be capable of identifying it as a female voice, can't you?

[cutthecameras]

Herr Uhl wrote...

rolltide123 wrote...

I'm not Sexist. I'm a GIRL.

And?

lol. OP. Seriously girl, stop this. You're embarassing yourself...just a little bit.
"I'm a woman so I can say things that belittle women without being sexist!"

You practically said "I got annoyed at fem shep's low voice so much that I decided to play as a man instead; if i'm gonna be manly I might as well be a man!"

[DeadRed1488]

The Angry One wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

I do believe deep voice is perceived as masculine, whether it biologically means anything or not. Also, since when are we talking about biologically? What about culturally associated gender traits?

It depends what kind of deep voice we're talking about. Plenty of women have deep voices.
FemShep's voice is a little deep, but again it fits the character. Certainly not as deep as some I've heard and certainly not masculine.

So there's what it comes down to. Opinion, some people think it's too deep, other's don't. No one was being sexist by stating their opinion on the matter. It's great that you like the voice, I'm mostly indifferent about it since I only play male characters. But the OP clearly doesn't agree. And it's their right to have that opinion.

[wizardryforever]

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?

Regarding the armor, I agree that having cleavage is a bit of a structural weakness.  There should be a single plate to cover both breasts, with no indentation in between them.  That said, your squadmates frequently don't even wear what could be considered armor, so this argument seems silly.

[The Angry One]

wizardryforever wrote...

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?

You assume we're associating soldiers with masculinity when we aren't.
It's simply a fact that being a soldier requires traits that are usually associated with masculinity because most soldiers are in fact male.
I don't associate those traits with a single gender however; were Shep not a soldier I'd simply consider her confident and matter-of-fact, and as I do now a breath of fresh air as a strong, self-sufficient female lead. But not "masculine"

Regarding the armor, I agree that having cleavage is a bit of a structural weakness.  There should be a single plate to cover both breasts, with no indentation in between them.  That said, your squadmates frequently don't even wear what could be considered armor, so this argument seems silly.

The indentation isn't there on all chests, some simply have a line or rivets which is hardly a weakness.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[Schroing]

[quote]wizardryforever wrote...

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?[quote]

No. People are not suggesting that the manly traits can be justified by her being a soldier, they're saying that the manly traits are not manly traits at all - they're the traits of a soldier, something completely differentiated from matters of sex.

[quote]Regarding the armor, I agree that having cleavage is a bit of a structural weakness.  There should be a single plate to cover both breasts, with no indentation in between them.  That said, your squadmates frequently don't even wear what could be considered armor, so this argument seems silly.
[/quote]

In whatever context the argument started in I'm sure it was a perfectly logical and unsilly thing to state.