331 réponses à ce sujet

[Schroing]

wizardryforever wrote...

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?

No. People are not suggesting that the manly traits can be justified by her being a soldier, they're saying that the manly traits are not manly traits at all - they're the traits of a soldier, something completely differentiated from matters of sex.

Regarding the armor, I agree that having cleavage is a bit of a structural weakness.  There should be a single plate to cover both breasts, with no indentation in between them.  That said, your squadmates frequently don't even wear what could be considered armor, so this argument seems silly.

In whatever context the argument started in I'm sure it was a perfectly logical and unsilly thing to state.

Modifié par Schroing, 24 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[Sharn01]

wizardryforever wrote...

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?

Regarding the armor, I agree that having cleavage is a bit of a structural weakness.  There should be a single plate to cover both breasts, with no indentation in between them.  That said, your squadmates frequently don't even wear what could be considered armor, so this argument seems silly.

I never said a lot of the squadmates dress was not silly for battle, its one of my complaint's about ME2.  Shep need's hardened armor, but they can run around in spandex and high heels, or for Jack, practically naked.

[Terraneaux]

wizardryforever wrote...

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?

The attitudes that help to make a successful soldier are somewhat similar to what is traditionally considered 'masculine' in western culture.  Makes sense that femShep would be a little more 'masculine.'  Nothing wrong with that.  

[DeadRed1488]

Schroing wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

DeadRed1488 wrote...

Great to see there's so much hate toward the OP for expressing the opinion that masculine women aren't to his taste. I'm inclined to agree with him. Has nothing to do with sexism, and it's ridiculous that the word sexism has even been brought up. Its just a personal opinion. You can try and argue all day that femshep's traits aren't masculine, but not many people will agree with you.

The fact that you're labeling them as masculine traits is what's being called as sexist.
Because...it is.

The idea of sexism is a joke, women and men are different, people need to deal with it.

They're different in many, many ways, but not the ways you're claiming that they are. None of the traits that femshep exhibits, unless you go renegade, could be considered biologically masculine features.

I do believe deep voice is perceived as masculine, whether it biologically means anything or not. Also, since when are we talking about biologically? What about culturally associated gender traits?

Culturally associated gender traits are the definition of sexism. Do you know what the word means? 
And deep voices...I don't really think Shepard's voice is all that deep. You can close your eyes and still clearly be capable of identifying it as a female voice, can't you?

Alright, this comes down to a difference in opinion. I find the idea of accusing people of sexism petty, same goes for racism. Other people do find these issues important, but I don't. And it's not out of disrespect for women. I'm just willing to accept that certain groups of people may or may not be naturally more capable or adept at certain things.

[Schroing]

The indentation isn't there on all chests, some simply have a line or rivets which is hardly a weakness.

But that it is on alliance issued armor seems ridiculous to me.

[Sialater]

rolltide123 wrote...

I'm not being sexist I'm a girl.
I was just saying that when I first heard the voice (I didn't play ME1) it shocked me and was a lot deeper than I expected. I just don't like it.
I understand that as a commander (soldier) that you need to be forceful and in charge.
The voice and how her body positioning  just annoyed me.
I was just wondering if anyone thought the same.

There's a fallacy if I've eaver read one.


I guess I'm not a girl since I found her quite normal.  Huhn, my husband will be disappointed.

[syllogi]

Terraneaux wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?

The attitudes that help to make a successful soldier are somewhat similar to what is traditionally considered 'masculine' in western culture.  Makes sense that femShep would be a little more 'masculine.'  Nothing wrong with that.  

Well, when I think of soldiers, I think of traits like "bravery", "toughness" and "perseverance".  It NEVER occured to me to think of those traits as masculine...and it's pretty sexist and insulting to say that women don't "traditionally" possess those traits.

[Schroing]

DeadRed1488 wrote...
Alright, this comes down to a difference in opinion. I find the idea of accusing people of sexism petty, same goes for racism. Other people do find these issues important, but I don't. And it's not out of disrespect for women. I'm just willing to accept that certain groups of people may or may not be naturally more capable or adept at certain things.

Naturally and biologically, in this case, are synonymous.

A black person does not biologically lack a soul or the function to exist in modern society, as many slave owners once claimed. That is a racist statement.
A female does not lack an ability to hunt, think, or do anything that isn't sex or cooking, as historically many societies have also claimed. That is a sexist statement.

[GnusmasTHX]

I agree.



She should wear lipstick and dresses, and have long hair that you can optionally pony-tail.

[cutthecameras]

This thread made my day. gg

[The Angry One]

She can wear lipstick.

Mine generally don't since I prefer natural lips.

[trigger2kill1]

Aaaahhhhh gee wiz talk about making up something to complain about. Shep is a warrior, Whatever the gender. You want the warrior to be "eye candy" that is a very sexist point of view. Hell the Krogan already think that humans are squishy, something about a half an inch to sever the spine.

[cruc1al]

Schroing wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?

No. People are not suggesting that the manly traits can be justified by her being a soldier, they're saying that the manly traits are not manly traits at all - they're the traits of a soldier, something completely differentiated from matters of sex.

+1
The soldier is seen as a masculine profession because most soldiers are men. If a female soldier acts like a male soldier, it implies that both act like soldiers, not that both act like men just because men happen to be soldiers more often.

Modifié par cruc1al, 24 février 2010 - 01:47 .

[ReubenLiew]

TeenZombie wrote...

Well, when I think of soldiers, I think of traits like "bravery", "toughness" and "perseverance".  It NEVER occured to me to think of those traits as masculine...and it's pretty sexist and insulting to say that women don't "traditionally" possess those traits.

I think it's more towards the trait of the willingness to bash somebody's head in with his fist for the sake of a faraway figure that is more masculine than anything else.
We men are stupid that way.

[wizardryforever]

Schroing wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

It seems that people want to justify FemShep's "manliness" by saying, "she's not manly, she's a soldier!"  It seems that people are holding soldiers to different standards of femininity than civilians.  Because you know that if FemShep was NOT a soldier, you would consider her to be a bit manly.  Not that there is anything wrong with that, just pointing out the double standard here.  If soldiers aren't a masculine profession, then why do you hold them to a different standard?

No. People are not suggesting that the manly traits can be justified by her being a soldier, they're saying that the manly traits are not manly traits at all - they're the traits of a soldier, something completely differentiated from matters of sex.

Regarding the armor, I agree that having cleavage is a bit of a structural weakness.  There should be a single plate to cover both breasts, with no indentation in between them.  That said, your squadmates frequently don't even wear what could be considered armor, so this argument seems silly.

In whatever context the argument started in I'm sure it was a perfectly logical and unsilly thing to state.

Well then, if she isn't manly, and she is "just acting like a soldier," then why can't she also be feminine?  Are "feminine" actions mutually exclusive from "soldier" actions?  If they are, then your whole argument falls apart.  If they aren't, then the OP was entirely justified in her disappointment.

[Terraneaux]

TeenZombie wrote...

Well, when I think of soldiers, I think of traits like "bravery", "toughness" and "perseverance".  It NEVER occured to me to think of those traits as masculine...and it's pretty sexist and insulting to say that women don't "traditionally" possess those traits.

What I'm saying is that the traditional Western ideal of 'what a woman should be' doesn't place an emphasis on traits like those you mentioned.  I'm not saying that women don't possess those traits, reading comprehension might help.

[Blind Lark]

What do you expect a leader leading her small band into a suicide mission to say?

[The Angry One]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well then, if she isn't manly, and she is "just acting like a soldier," then why can't she also be feminine?  Are "feminine" actions mutually exclusive from "soldier" actions?  If they are, then your whole argument falls apart.  If they aren't, then the OP was entirely justified in her disappointment.

You're making the fallacy that she must act "feminine" to compensate for her "soldier" stuff.
Why? She's her own person, and that person happens to be a soldier, dedicated to the mission.

[Jalem001]

Naturally and biologically, in this case, are synonymous.

A black person does not biologically lack a soul or the function to exist in modern society, as many slave owners once claimed. That is a racist statement.
A female does not lack an ability to hunt, think, or do anything that isn't sex or cooking, as historically many societies have also claimed. That is a sexist statement.

None of which is at all relevant to any point anyone has made. No one has said females can't be soldiers, or has even targeted the quality of female soldiers.

You see sexism where there is none.

Modifié par Jalem001, 24 février 2010 - 01:50 .

[Sharn01]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well then, if she isn't manly, and she is "just acting like a soldier," then why can't she also be feminine?  Are "feminine" actions mutually exclusive from "soldier" actions?  If they are, then your whole argument falls apart.  If they aren't, then the OP was entirely justified in her disappointment.

If you want to get technical about it.  Assigning any traits a classification as feminine or masculine is the definition of sexism. 

[JMKnave]

rolltide123 wrote...
I'm not being sexist I'm a girl.

Just because your female doesn't mean you can't be sexist. In fact, saying something like this makes you seem sexist.

And I happen to like Jennifer Hale's voice acting. Suits the character perfectly. She's an alliance soldier after all.

[RighteousRage]

All of the female soldiers I've seen in real life have either been horny little teenage ****s or motherlike



There is no possible other option

[ReubenLiew]

RighteousRage wrote...

All of the female soldiers I've seen in real life have either been horny little teenage ****s or motherlike

There is no possible other option

Now wait...
Isn't this technically the same about the menfolk as well? Except exchange motherly with fatherly.

[Sialater]

Sharn01 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Well then, if she isn't manly, and she is "just acting like a soldier," then why can't she also be feminine?  Are "feminine" actions mutually exclusive from "soldier" actions?  If they are, then your whole argument falls apart.  If they aren't, then the OP was entirely justified in her disappointment.

If you want to get technical about it.  Assigning any traits a classification as feminine or masculine is the definition of sexism. 

Thank you.

If you really want to discuss this:  define Femininity.  Define Masculinity.

[The Angry One]

RighteousRage wrote...

All of the female soldiers I've seen in real life have either been horny little teenage ****s or motherlike

There is no possible other option

I advise you to broaden your research into female soldiers beyond Japanese anime.