331 réponses à ce sujet

[Herr Uhl]

ReubenLiew wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Well, when I think of soldiers, I think of traits like "bravery", "toughness" and "perseverance".  It NEVER occured to me to think of those traits as masculine...and it's pretty sexist and insulting to say that women don't "traditionally" possess those traits.

I think it's more towards the trait of the willingness to bash somebody's head in with his fist for the sake of a faraway figure that is more masculine than anything else.
We men are stupid that way.

Hush, you're being sexist, or at least you generalize. A woman has the same affinity to be stupid if she wants to.

[Jalem001]

ReubenLiew wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...

All of the female soldiers I've seen in real life have either been horny little teenage ****s or motherlike

There is no possible other option

Now wait...
Isn't this technically the same about the menfolk as well? Except exchange motherly with fatherly.

I wouldn't say fatherly, but certainly ****ty...

[Jalem001]

gdi Bioware Forums.

Modifié par Jalem001, 24 février 2010 - 01:53 .

[Schroing]

Jalem001 wrote...

Naturally and biologically, in this case, are synonymous.

A black person does not biologically lack a soul or the function to exist in modern society, as many slave owners once claimed. That is a racist statement.
A female does not lack an ability to hunt, think, or do anything that isn't sex or cooking, as historically many societies have also claimed. That is a sexist statement.

None of which is at all relevant to any point anyone has made. No one has said females can't be soldiers, or has even targeted the quality of female soldiers.

You see sexism where there is none.

It's relevant to the point that the person I was addressing said completely and utterly that racism and sexism do not exist. I was giving him examples.
If you want to argue about Shepard, go back a page or two and find one of the arguments that is relevant to that.

[wizardryforever]

The Angry One wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Well then, if she isn't manly, and she is "just acting like a soldier," then why can't she also be feminine?  Are "feminine" actions mutually exclusive from "soldier" actions?  If they are, then your whole argument falls apart.  If they aren't, then the OP was entirely justified in her disappointment.

You're making the fallacy that she must act "feminine" to compensate for her "soldier" stuff.
Why? She's her own person, and that person happens to be a soldier, dedicated to the mission.

I'm not saying she MUST act that way, I'm saying that there is no option for her to act that way.  Though it is true that Shepard has a defined personality already, so blame Bioware if there is any blame to be had for such a thing.  But to be honest, I think FemShep's personality fits her situation pretty well, I can just understand the OP's point of view.

[Schroing]

Sialater wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Well then, if she isn't manly, and she is "just acting like a soldier," then why can't she also be feminine?  Are "feminine" actions mutually exclusive from "soldier" actions?  If they are, then your whole argument falls apart.  If they aren't, then the OP was entirely justified in her disappointment.

If you want to get technical about it.  Assigning any traits a classification as feminine or masculine is the definition of sexism. 

Thank you.

If you really want to discuss this:  define Femininity.  Define Masculinity.

This.

[Sialater]

The Angry One wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...

All of the female soldiers I've seen in real life have either been horny little teenage ****s or motherlike

There is no possible other option

I advise you to broaden your research into female soldiers beyond Japanese anime.

LMAO. 

[The Angry One]

It occurs to me that ManShep doesn't act "masculine" enough.

I demand scenes where ManShep is drinking a keg of beer watching football with Jacob and scratching his crotch repeatedly.**



**Sarcasm on male stereotypes, not intended as The Angry One's personal views on males or masculinity which may vary.

[cutthecameras]

The Angry One wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...

All of the female soldiers I've seen in real life have either been horny little teenage ****s or motherlike

There is no possible other option

I advise you to broaden your research into female soldiers beyond Japanese anime.

I think I love you, Angry One

[RighteousRage]

The Angry One wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...

All of the female soldiers I've seen in real life have either been horny little teenage ****s or motherlike

There is no possible other option

I advise you to broaden your research into female soldiers beyond Japanese anime.

I advise you to get a sense of humor or friends that have just been stop-lossed and sent back to Iraq beyond their original enlistment

I mean, "your mother is a female soldier"

[ReubenLiew]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Hush, you're being sexist, or at least you generalize. A woman has the same affinity to be stupid if she wants to.

Maybe, but for the most part it is generally a testesterone induced stupidity that normally occurs when a someone starts flinging fists when someone hits on his/her partner, which I think we can all agree happens far more often with males than females.

[The Angry One]

wizardryforever wrote...

I'm not saying she MUST act that way, I'm saying that there is no option for her to act that way.  Though it is true that Shepard has a defined personality already, so blame Bioware if there is any blame to be had for such a thing.  But to be honest, I think FemShep's personality fits her situation pretty well, I can just understand the OP's point of view.

I can understand that everyone may not like it, but just because Shep doesn't act as what some might expect a typical female lead to act, it doesn't make her masculine.
Everyone has their opinion, but I feel she is completely fitting as a soldier who just happens to be female.

[Jalem001]

Schroing wrote...

Jalem001 wrote...

Naturally and biologically, in this case, are synonymous.

A black person does not biologically lack a soul or the function to exist in modern society, as many slave owners once claimed. That is a racist statement.
A female does not lack an ability to hunt, think, or do anything that isn't sex or cooking, as historically many societies have also claimed. That is a sexist statement.

None of which is at all relevant to any point anyone has made. No one has said females can't be soldiers, or has even targeted the quality of female soldiers.

You see sexism where there is none.

It's relevant to the point that the person I was addressing said completely and utterly that racism and sexism do not exist. I was giving him examples.
If you want to argue about Shepard, go back a page or two and find one of the arguments that is relevant to that.

He didn't say they didn't exist, he just said he finds the accusations of sexism and racism petty, and he's not focused on either enough to really care all that much.

I understand his point.  Both are used far too often in situations where they shouldn't be.  It devalues both words.

Modifié par Jalem001, 24 février 2010 - 01:56 .

[RighteousRage]

I'm afraid testosterone actually doesn't have anything to do with violence

[The Angry One]

RighteousRage wrote...

I advise you to get a sense of humor or friends that have just been stop-lossed and sent back to Iraq beyond their original enlistment

I mean, "your mother is a female soldier"

You talk of humour and you can't see levity kicking in you in the shins.

[syllogi]

Terraneaux wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Well, when I think of soldiers, I think of traits like "bravery", "toughness" and "perseverance".  It NEVER occured to me to think of those traits as masculine...and it's pretty sexist and insulting to say that women don't "traditionally" possess those traits.

What I'm saying is that the traditional Western ideal of 'what a woman should be' doesn't place an emphasis on traits like those you mentioned.  I'm not saying that women don't possess those traits, reading comprehension might help.

Ha, you accuse me of lacking reading comprehension because I don't completely agree with you, so you cut out the quote I was referring to.  Is that a "masculine" or "feminine" trait??? 

My point was that while YOU (and wizardryforever) may think that society puts emphasis on those traits, I wasn't raised to believe that.  And the logical conclusion of both your posts is that you're saying that society sees those traits as masculine. 

Personally, when I look at Shepard, I don't see masculinity.  If someone else does, it's quite possible that they are a man...or have been socialized to believe that supposedly "masculine" traits are badass or cool.

EDIT:  changed a word because I am a dainty and delicate woman.  Tee hee!!! 

Modifié par TeenZombie, 24 février 2010 - 02:03 .

[Herr Uhl]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Hush, you're being sexist, or at least you generalize. A woman has the same affinity to be stupid if she wants to.

Maybe, but for the most part it is generally a testesterone induced stupidity that normally occurs when a someone starts flinging fists when someone hits on his/her partner, which I think we can all agree happens far more often with males than females.

Yup, testosterone makes one more aggressive, that is truth. Compare a dog pre and post neutering for specific proof.

[RighteousRage]

The Angry One wrote...

RighteousRage wrote...

I advise you to get a sense of humor or friends that have just been stop-lossed and sent back to Iraq beyond their original enlistment

I mean, "your mother is a female soldier"

You talk of humour and you can't see levity kicking in you in the shins.

I'll be kicking in you in the shins in a moment

[Schroing]

Jalem001 wrote...

Schroing wrote...

Jalem001 wrote...

Naturally and biologically, in this case, are synonymous.

A black person does not biologically lack a soul or the function to exist in modern society, as many slave owners once claimed. That is a racist statement.
A female does not lack an ability to hunt, think, or do anything that isn't sex or cooking, as historically many societies have also claimed. That is a sexist statement.

None of which is at all relevant to any point anyone has made. No one has said females can't be soldiers, or has even targeted the quality of female soldiers.

You see sexism where there is none.

It's relevant to the point that the person I was addressing said completely and utterly that racism and sexism do not exist. I was giving him examples.
If you want to argue about Shepard, go back a page or two and find one of the arguments that is relevant to that.

He didn't say they didn't exist, he just said he finds the accusations of sexism and racism petty, and he's not focused on either enough to really care all that much.

I understand his point.  Both are used far too often in situations where they shouldn't be.  It devalues both words.

If you're not going to take his words at face value, don't do so to mine.
He didn't say he found them petty when used in situations that didn't warrant the claim. He stated he found them petty. He stated he found the idea of racism and sexism petty.

Regardless, your point is hardly valid here. The attribution of things like posture, the claim that 'cultural differences' between genders are somehow valid are both sexist claims by definition.

I'm getting sick of spelling this out. Go get a goddamned dictionary.

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Hush, you're being sexist, or at least you generalize. A woman has the same affinity to be stupid if she wants to.

Maybe, but for the most part it is generally a testesterone induced stupidity that normally occurs when a someone starts flinging fists when someone hits on his/her partner, which I think we can all agree happens far more often with males than females.

Yup, testosterone makes one more aggressive, that is truth. Compare a dog pre and post neutering for specific proof.

Nah, that's just laziness.

[Sharn01]

There are lot's of things I want my Shep to do differently. I want my Shep to not work for Cerberus, and ignore TIM and head straight to the citidel, have the entire crew arrested and then start my investigation on my own term's. I want to tell my ME1 LI that I have feeling's for them.



That is a reduculous argument, if we are going to start complaining about the lack of option's for the dialog of Shep being too masculine should be the very least of your concern's.

[The Angry One]

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
Hush, you're being sexist, or at least you generalize. A woman has the same affinity to be stupid if she wants to.

Maybe, but for the most part it is generally a testesterone induced stupidity that normally occurs when a someone starts flinging fists when someone hits on his/her partner, which I think we can all agree happens far more often with males than females.

Yup, testosterone makes one more aggressive, that is truth. Compare a dog pre and post neutering for specific proof.

Nah, that's just laziness.

Heh, my male cat became far more aggressive after neutering.
And don't even get me started on my old sadly deceased female cat, she'd start some epic fights.

[DaeJi]

Women and men both have masculine and feminine traits; they are not exclusive. Nor are they bad. Shepard tends to have more masculine traits than the average female, true. A lot of it comes from her profession and position; the qualities often displayed in military leadership are culturally considered masculine traits. She (and he) also displays many feminine traits though, especially when playing as a paragon among her crew. She can be soft, caring, compassionate, seductive, etc. Personality wise she's fine.



Now, BioWare could improve her animations.

[The Angry One]

Luc0s wrote...

I made a thread about this a few days/weeks ago with exactly the same statement and opinion as you. The topic became a flame-war because a lot of angry femShep-mancers jumped on my back and attacked me for my opinion. I see the same is happening all over again in this thread.

Seriously dude, femShep is holy on this forum. It's better not to question her or else all femShep players will be upset, and believe me, A LOT of posters on this forum are femShep players.

Yes clearly because people don't agree with you we all worship the altar of FemShep.
Let me tell you something, were FemShep a bad or unrealistic character I'd be the first one blasting her. She isn't, and if people yelled at you it was because you were using flimsy arguments to back up your opinion.