36 réponses à ce sujet

[Mordigan]

It seems to be a consensus on these forums that Vanguards should take Champion over Destroyer.....

I must be the only one to contradict this, because I haven't seen anyone else that recommends/plays the Destroyer Vanguard.

But is Champion really that much better than Destroyer?  Lets look at the numbers:


[*]Destroyer Your weapon inflicts even more damage, and you receive a damage bonus to biotic powers.

• Health: +15.00%
• Weapon Damage: +15.00%
• Power Recharge: -9.00%
• Paragon/Renegade: +70.00%
• Power Damage: +15.00%

[*]Champion Your staying power lets you survive marathons of combat. Power-recharging time and Paragon/Renegade scores are improved still further, and you receive a bonus to biotic power duration.

• Health: +20.00%
• Weapon Damage: +9.00%
• Power Recharge: -15.00%
• Paragon/Renegade: +100.00%
• Power Duration: +15.00%

It seems that most people recommend Champion based on it's power recharge advantage, but looking at the numbers, Champion gives you a paltry 6% reduction over Destroyer, which hardly seems worth it if you ask me..

By the time you get the 20% cooldown bonus upgrade, your recharge times (especially for Charge) will be well below 4 seconds with either Destroyer or Champion.

Indeed, the biggest difference between Destroyer and Champion, is that the former gives you 15% power damage boost whilst the latter gives you 15% in power duration.

Which one is more useful though, duration or damage? 

Personally I lean more towards increased damage, but if someone wants to make a good case for duration, I'm all ears..

[VirtualAlex]

Champion gives you more survivability with a bonus to HP and theoretical bonus to shields (allowing you to recharge more frequently.) So you are less likely to die.



Also as far as power damage goes, Vanguards don't use many powers. The charge does negligible damage on it's own. I am not sure how duration works. Does it keep your post-charge shields up longer? Does it increase the time dilation after a charge? Anyway I don't think this aspect is as important as the HP+Shield boost.

[VirtualAlex]

Also the paragon boost shouldn't be overlooked if you are looking at the game overall and not just maxing combat.

[Mordigan]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Champion gives you more survivability with a bonus to HP and theoretical bonus to shields (allowing you to recharge more frequently.) So you are less likely to die.

Yeah, but the HP bonus is only 5% more than you get with Destroyer, which seems negligible to me.  The same thing with the recharge bonus.  By the time you get the 20% cooldown upgrade, your recharge time for charge will be well below 4 seconds, regardless of which specialization you choose..

Getting champion will reduce time even more yes, but we're talking about tenths of a second here..

Also as far as power damage goes, Vanguards don't use many powers

Hmm, maybe you don't.  But Vanguards that play on normal and veteran can make good use of Shockwave..  And what if you choose reave or slam for a bonus power?  

The charge does negligible damage on it's own. I am not sure how duration works. Does it keep your post-charge shields up longer? Does it increase the time dilation after a charge? Anyway I don't think this aspect is as important as the HP+Shield boost.

Charge only does negligible damage if you play on hardcore or above.  On normal and veteran, you can one shot (or severely decimate their HP) a number of enemies like droids, husks and other unarmored or unshieled foes.

I'm also interested to know if the duration increase would make your enhanced shields stay up longer as well.  If thats true, then thats definitely a boon for Champion Vanguards.

[DirewolfX]

Pull and Charge don't really do damage. I don't think Shockwave even does damage directly (rather as a result of the throw-damage mechanics), but I could be wrong. Unless you use a bonus power, all it really does is boost the damage of your Inferno Ammo. Honestly, not a big deal to me. Extra health, cooldown and negotiation skill is a no-brainer to me.

[VirtualAlex]

I play on Insanity so to me Pull, Wave and Charge are not damage abilities. Obviously if you take Reave or Slam then the damage bonus is good. But I don't really count bonus skills when considering a class build.



I know you say we are talking about tenths of a second, but with cooldown bonus you can charge 6% faster. It's hard to translate this into real use but lets just say you get 5% more HP and 6% more shields. I think that is better than making these non-damaging powers do more damage. You can do all the damage with your shotgun while charge 6% more often don't you think?

[nofanboy]

You're wrong on your recharge numbers. Neither will achieve a charge cool down of under 4 secs. The best cool down a destroyer can achieve on charge is 4.37 secs. With a champion it's 4.08. If a third of a second doesn't seem like much then go with destroyer. I agree that the duration bonus isn't great or better than the damage bonus but I use charge and other power as often as I can so anything that quickens my ability to do this is preferable to me. And the extra health, however meager it may be certainly doesn't hurt, especially on a class that will be taking a lot of enemy fire due to its in your face nature.



Also if you're playing on normal or veteran why would you even want the 6% additional damage bonus destroyer provides. You kill things fast enough on those difficulty settings as it is.

[Mordigan]

@nofanboy, yeah you're right about charge. I thought the base cooldown for charge was 4 seconds, when in reality it's 6 seconds.

Also if you're playing on normal or veteran why would you even want the 6% additional damage bonus destroyer provides. You kill things fast enough on those difficulty settings as it is.

I'm playing on insanity right now.. I was only telling VirtualAlex that biotic powers like shockwave would have benefit from increased damage when played on normal and veteran.

[RighteousRage]

DirewolfX wrote...

Pull and Charge don't really do damage. I don't think Shockwave even does damage directly (rather as a result of the throw-damage mechanics), but I could be wrong. Unless you use a bonus power, all it really does is boost the damage of your Inferno Ammo. Honestly, not a big deal to me. Extra health, cooldown and negotiation skill is a no-brainer to me.

this

[Chimpeau]

 Look at your arguments. 

I mean, Destroyer is only a 6% damage increase. If you are supposed to be one-shotting enemies anyway, whats the point of sacrificing health bonuses for something that does not even enhance killspeed? 

[Mordigan]

Chimpeau wrote...

 Look at your arguments. 

I mean, Destroyer is only a 6% damage increase. If you are supposed to be one-shotting enemies anyway, whats the point of sacrificing health bonuses for something that does not even enhance killspeed? 

Power damage is 15%, not 6%.

The arguement is over whether damage or duration is more important, because thats where the majority of the benefits lie for each specialization.

The rest if trivial. 

[Mordigan]

I think I'm going to try champion though.. Since I've been playing Destroyer for so long, I should be extra sensitive to any changes that switching to champion would bring.

[bbslayer_07]

I think the argrument should be do you want more health or damage. It seems to me if you choose destroyer you'll be getting a stronger damage bonus than health bonus from champion.

Also I saw one of the devs post something the other day, that said that items or skills that increase power damage affect ammo powers, in other words Power Damage 15% = Inferno,Ap, etc. Ammo does 15% more damage or something like that, I don't know the exact math for it.

So the destroyer would be doing an estimated 21% more damage if your using ammo powers.

Modifié par bbslayer_07, 24 février 2010 - 04:36 .

[Mordigan]

Yeah, but thats only if the power damage is general. If it's exclusive to biotics (like it is for destroyer), then it won't affect the ammo powers.

[Tryst]

Power damage bonus also affects ammo abilities. That said, I prefer champion simply because 1/2 shotting most mobs on insanity means that the extra damage simply isn't going to change much, if anything, but that extra 0.3 seconds when your shields are getting pounded could be a lifesaver. Of course, if you spend more time using the smg/pistol, then the extra damage could add up to time reduced and ammo saved. I'm just not sure a 21% damage boost is enough to change many fights, outside of things like scions, ymirs, or the colossus.

[bbslayer_07]

Mordigan wrote...

Yeah, but thats only if the power damage is general. If it's exclusive to biotics (like it is for destroyer), then it won't affect the ammo powers.

Are you sure about that? Where does it say that the destroyer Power damage bonus is exclusive to biotics?

[Mordigan]

It says in the specialization descriptor:



"Your weapon inflicts even more damage, and you receive a damage bonus to biotic powers."

[Ackillez]

The power damage bonus is not supposed to be exclusive to biotics. I've seen it stated by Christina that ammo powers ARE affected by power damage bonuses. I haven't seen it stated that they are affected by duration bonuses as well, but logically it seems to follow. This being the case, the damage/duration difference is trivial, because inferno is also affected by duration (being a DOT type effect), so increased duration and damage is virtually identical (remember that DOT damage is instant when applied to armour, so the only difference would be that destroyers inflict their bonus damage faster against health).



With this in mind the real choice is actually 5% health and -6% recharge or +6% weapon damage. Champion easily wins, it would have won even without the negotiation and health boost. Power recharge is super critical for charging vanguards!

[Mordigan]

This is what Eric said regarding ammo powers:

Ammo powers benefit from + Power Damage bonuses, such as the +15% power damage from the Blood Dragon armor. However, they do not get benefits from + Biotic or Tech damage bonuses or any other bonuses specific to certain types of powers.

So you see, if it's damage specific, then ammo powers don't benefit.

[_Dannok1234]

Mordigan, the point of using Champion over destroyer is simple. You will never ever notice a 6% damage bonus. In fact unless you look very closely you will not notice the 70% health damage boost using AP ammo. (It's no more then 1 melee hit against a geth hunter vs no ammo when using the Eviscerator) +15% power damage is also fairly pointless, at least I as a vanguard do not do that much damage with my biotic powers. I do it by charging and blowing peoples heads off.



Now if you pick Champion you will notice the difference in cool down times on charge, it's something you can see and feel. I don't know where you and the others in this thread are getting their numbers, but they have been wrong so far.

Champion is 0.360 faster then the destroyer when it comes to cool down times, thats something you can easily notice. Charge for a Champion 6 seconds -(20%+15%) which means 6*0,65=3,9. With the destroyer it's 6-(20%+9%) which is 6*0,71=4,26. So it's a choice between less then 4 seconds and more then 4 seconds.



To sum up, a bonus you feel over one you do not. Thats why I always pick Champion.

[DragoonKain3]

Champion every time for difficulties that matter.



This is because there are TONS of +damage from powers/abilities/armor pieces/upgrades, but only one upgrade increases cooldown. All of this is additive as well.



This means that a measly 6% increase in weapon damage plus a 15% increase in ammo damage (which is at best 10.5% increase with Tungsten rounds), or a grand total of at best +16.5% increase in damage, isn't all that much when you're already counting +50% base damage and ammo/armor and whatever other bonus damage into account. Destroyer would be barely felt at all.



And considering how much damage the enemy does in Insanity, you want to be able to charge as often as you can to recharge your shields. Champion does this better; the increased health and persuasion scores are just gravy.



This does not only apply to Shepard, but to your squadmates as well, particularly Jack and especially Samara. If you have a choice between CD reduction and weapon damage, the former should almost always take a priority.

[Ackillez]

Mordigan wrote...

This is what Eric said regarding ammo powers:

Ammo powers benefit from + Power Damage bonuses, such as the +15% power damage from the Blood Dragon armor. However, they do not get benefits from + Biotic or Tech damage bonuses or any other bonuses specific to certain types of powers.

So you see, if it's damage specific, then ammo powers don't benefit.

I do believe the destroyer bonus affects ammo powers, but the wording is somewhat ambiguous. The description states that "you receive a bonus to biotic power duration", but in the bonus list it says "power damage", without any biotics limitations. Not sure which is right, but I'm inclined to believe the listed bonuses over the description text.

[nofanboy]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Mordigan, the point of using Champion over destroyer is simple. You will never ever notice a 6% damage bonus. In fact unless you look very closely you will not notice the 70% health damage boost using AP ammo. (It's no more then 1 melee hit against a geth hunter vs no ammo when using the Eviscerator) +15% power damage is also fairly pointless, at least I as a vanguard do not do that much damage with my biotic powers. I do it by charging and blowing peoples heads off.

Now if you pick Champion you will notice the difference in cool down times on charge, it's something you can see and feel. I don't know where you and the others in this thread are getting their numbers, but they have been wrong so far.
Champion is 0.360 faster then the destroyer when it comes to cool down times, thats something you can easily notice. Charge for a Champion 6 seconds -(20%+15%) which means 6*0,65=3,9. With the destroyer it's 6-(20%+9%) which is 6*0,71=4,26. So it's a choice between less then 4 seconds and more then 4 seconds.

To sum up, a bonus you feel over one you do not. Thats why I always pick Champion.

I'm pretty sure this is slightly incorrect.  While damage bonuses are additive, cool down bonuses are multiplicative (just like in ME1).  So Champion would be 6 secs*(.8)*(85)=4.08 and destroyer is 6 secs*(.8)*(.91)=4.37.  Like I said, not much of a difference but still a bit slower than you said.

[_Dannok1234]

You are probably right about that, my mistake!

Second edit I tried again with Tech armor, seems I manage to consistently time that to 6,80 seconds, which kinda suggests I was indeed wrong. I must be anticipating the end of the cool down rather then reacting to it, no way I have a 100ms reaction time, but on the other hand, there's no way in hell I have a 830ms reaction time either. Since Tech armor is 12 sec reduced by 20% and 30%, multiplicative thats 6,72 seconds (unless I fudged the math). Which now seems more plausible then 12*0.5=6 seconds.

Third edit: (shouldn't have deleted the first). Been trying destroyer and Champion, I'm pretty much convinced that the champion is noticeably faster. Also that experiment I did with throw, was pointing me in the direction of it being possible that it was additive. There does seem to be a slight delay from when you hit tech armor until it activates/cool down starts.

So I'll say that I was probably wrong by thinking it was additive, but I would very much like someone to confirm or not that it's multiplicative. Stupid things like this has a habit of nagging at me

Modifié par Dannok1234, 24 février 2010 - 02:00 .

[sonsonthebia07]

VirtualAlex wrote...

Champion gives you more survivability with a bonus to HP and theoretical bonus to shields (allowing you to recharge more frequently.) So you are less likely to die.

Also as far as power damage goes, Vanguards don't use many powers. The charge does negligible damage on it's own. I am not sure how duration works. Does it keep your post-charge shields up longer? Does it increase the time dilation after a charge? Anyway I don't think this aspect is as important as the HP+Shield boost.

Survivability....bah. Leave that to the friggen' sentinels. I hit up destroyer for the damage bonus on a vanguard.