117 réponses à ce sujet

[Katamariguy]

Doomhams wrote...

Incoming message to council "I saved your asses and all you could say was 'Ah, reapers...'" Enter giant shepherd reapers. "HERE'S YOUR REAPER! DO YOU BELIEVE ME NOW ****S!?"

Hopefully there'll be that option.

[MajesticJazz]

Sajuro wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

Not join. But I would prefer that depending on decisions you have made throughout the trilogy, there is an ending in which the Reapers actually win. Either this or some plot twist in which you discover something about the Reapers gives you the option of a "deal with the devil" thing.

Like if you made any paragon desicion at all throughout the entire trilogy.
Blew the base? Reapers win
Saved the Council? Reapers win
Freed the Queen? Reapers win
Boost Patriarch's self esteem instead of letting him die? Reapers win.

I do not know if that was a joke but I like that idea.

The reason why I like it is because it sort of goes along the idea that Bioware stated way before ME1 came out about how they wanted this trilogy to cover the idea that a good choice in the short term might actually have negative effects in the long term while bad/negative choices in the short term might actually have good/positive choices in the long run.

It would make ME become more grey instead of the black and white that it currently is. It would be interesting to see that letting the Rachni Queen live while a nice choice in ME1 was actually a bad decision in the long term.

[Sajuro]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

Not join. But I would prefer that depending on decisions you have made throughout the trilogy, there is an ending in which the Reapers actually win. Either this or some plot twist in which you discover something about the Reapers gives you the option of a "deal with the devil" thing.

Like if you made any paragon desicion at all throughout the entire trilogy.
Blew the base? Reapers win
Saved the Council? Reapers win
Freed the Queen? Reapers win
Boost Patriarch's self esteem instead of letting him die? Reapers win.

I do not know if that was a joke but I like that idea.

The reason why I like it is because it sort of goes along the idea that Bioware stated way before ME1 came out about how they wanted this trilogy to cover the idea that a good choice in the short term might actually have negative effects in the long term while bad/negative choices in the short term might actually have good/positive choices in the long run.

It would make ME become more grey instead of the black and white that it currently is. It would be interesting to see that letting the Rachni Queen live while a nice choice in ME1 was actually a bad decision in the long term.

to quote EDI: That was a joke.
Mainly an exaggeration of the call for Paragons to be punished in ME3 for anything they do.

[Nimrodell]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

Not join. But I would prefer that depending on decisions you have made throughout the trilogy, there is an ending in which the Reapers actually win. Either this or some plot twist in which you discover something about the Reapers gives you the option of a "deal with the devil" thing.

Like if you made any paragon desicion at all throughout the entire trilogy.
Blew the base? Reapers win
Saved the Council? Reapers win
Freed the Queen? Reapers win
Boost Patriarch's self esteem instead of letting him die? Reapers win.

I do not know if that was a joke but I like that idea.

The reason why I like it is because it sort of goes along the idea that Bioware stated way before ME1 came out about how they wanted this trilogy to cover the idea that a good choice in the short term might actually have negative effects in the long term while bad/negative choices in the short term might actually have good/positive choices in the long run.

It would make ME become more grey instead of the black and white that it currently is. It would be interesting to see that letting the Rachni Queen live while a nice choice in ME1 was actually a bad decision in the long term.

Rewarding only renegade choices would be truly bad because ME2 is marked with 12+ grade when it comes to kids. What kind of message they would be sending to all youngsters out there? Kids, don't even try to do something good, good is stupid and only brutes or immoral persons get the job done... When I think about it, it would be way more easy for me to act like renegade with my students, but somehow through so many years of work with young people, somehow the path of understanding and searching for better and not quickest solutions payed off. And since when being a jerk is the only realisitc and rewarding way? There are two sides of that coin and both sides can make the right and wrong decisions because that's in human nature.

I'm not 'false moral' person, but it doesn't work that way even in real life unless you're some kind of prophet and you know you need to do something really nasty or support something that is moraly truly ambiguous to achieve higher good... Many historical villains and ultimate loosers were actually renegades and look how it turned out for 'em all, and same goes for great heroes. There is no renegade or paragon recipe for successful end... sometimes tis only whim of destiny, chance. Renegade can keep the base and then actually get those flaming cybernetics failing because of some kind of neural overload... BOOM! Shepard dead, TIM going wild with experiments on living beings, STG forms a team to catch him and kill him... utter slaughter... Reapers come and kill 'em all. And same can be made for paragons. Heh, following that line of thinking, Oppenheimer could be considered as scientist renegade who tought he's doing his job on nuclear bomb for  the greater good even though he knew what it'll do to those targeted by it, and look what happened... Was that greater good in the end? Did he perceive it like that after he saw what happened, especially because the war was ended anyway.

And as I said so many times, there are two types of renegade pathways in ME (not talking about paragade or renegon). Following the predictable stupid brute path you'll get somewhat flawed character - if Shepard is mean and aggressive with no good reason, selfish arse, why would s/he go for saving the universe and on suicide mission in the first place... Hell, take the Normandy and go for piracy and think about evading the Reapers when they actually come if they come at all.
Second type of renegade is true outlaw but not without a sense of honour or duty, it just depends on motives why s/he became an renegade in the first place... this renegade won't be mean mofo with his fellows in arms and combat. S/he will tho what needs to be done but not just for the sake of doing it.

[LURadio]

Rekkampum wrote...

I think this theory only makes sense if the technology used to revive Shepard was based on Reaper tech.

Not just based, it is Reaper tech my friend

[Schneidend]

Sajuro wrote...
to quote EDI: That was a joke.
Mainly an exaggeration of the call for Paragons to be punished in ME3 for anything they do.

Personally, I'd like to see both alignments have some things turn out that make the players go "oh no...what have I done?!"

Example:
Keep collector base = indoctrinated Illusive Man boss fight
Destroy collector base = fight a reaper at a space station somewhere after it annihilates an under-prepared 5th Fleet

Or something like that.

As to the topic at hand, yes, Shepard is having a lot of parallels drawn between himself and Saren, but it's purely literary. You're not going to be forced to help the reapers. That would be stupid.

[Rekkampum]

LURadio wrote...

Rekkampum wrote...

I think this theory only makes sense if the technology used to revive Shepard was based on Reaper tech.

Not just based, it is Reaper tech my friend

Until any information is released, all we know about the Lazarus Project and the origin of the technology used by Cerberus is pure speculation and hand-waving. Otherwise, please cite your evidence supporting your claim.

[LURadio]

It wouldn't be really stupid, I think it's kind of an interesting idea.

[rma2110]

ME2 has already forced us to work with Cerberus, so the last thing I want to be forced to work for the reapers in ME3. Seeing Shepard struggle with the possibility of indoctrination an thinking fearing the possibility of turning into another Saren would be interesting.



On the other hand maybe working for the reapers and pressing a giant reset button on the ME universe is the right thing to do. What if they really are our salvation?

[Bourne Endeavor]

Nimrodell wrote...

Rewarding only renegade choices would be truly bad because ME2 is marked with 12+ grade when it comes to kids. What kind of message they would be sending to all youngsters out there? Kids, don't even try to do something good, good is stupid and only brutes or immoral persons get the job done... When I think about it, it would be way more easy for me to act like renegade with my students, but somehow through so many years of work with young people, somehow the path of understanding and searching for better and not quickest solutions payed off. And since when being a jerk is the only realisitc and rewarding way? There are two sides of that coin and both sides can make the right and wrong decisions because that's in human nature.

What in the world are you talking about? Message? Since when have video games as a whole, let alone Mass Effect ever derived some perplexing side agenda to teach teenagers about morality? The game is about one thing, entertainment. There is no masquerading lesson to be learned nor does Bioware care. If the story were to be thoroughly enjoyable to reveal Shepard as being indoctrinated and therefore a "good ending" in the general sense is no longer feasible. It is what will happen.

I cannot even begin to fathom how you came to this wild conclusion that a game akin to Mass Effect should be "teaching our children" primarily because seventeen and up are not children. Just... I do not even know...

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 07 décembre 2010 - 05:28 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

ME has asari strippers, consorts who rape you, stacks of burnin' corpses, and all sorts of stuff like that. Damn the children!

[Nimrodell]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Rewarding only renegade choices would be truly bad because ME2 is marked with 12+ grade when it comes to kids. What kind of message they would be sending to all youngsters out there? Kids, don't even try to do something good, good is stupid and only brutes or immoral persons get the job done... When I think about it, it would be way more easy for me to act like renegade with my students, but somehow through so many years of work with young people, somehow the path of understanding and searching for better and not quickest solutions payed off. And since when being a jerk is the only realisitc and rewarding way? There are two sides of that coin and both sides can make the right and wrong decisions because that's in human nature.

What in the world are you talking about? Message? Since when have video games as a whole, let alone Mass Effect ever derived some perplexing side agenda to teach teenagers about morality? The game is about one thing, entertainment. There is no masquerading lesson to be learned nor does Bioware care. If the story were to be thoroughly enjoyable to reveal Shepard as being indoctrinated and therefore a "good ending" in the general sense is no longer feasible. It is what will happen.

I cannot even begin to fathom how you came to this wild conclusion that a game akin to Mass Effect should be "teaching our children" primarily because seventeen and up are not children. Just... I do not even know...

Then you misinterpreted me, ofcourse there's no 'teaching our children' goals in games like this one but also parents will see it like that. BioWare needs to sell this game, right? Just look what happened to the love scene from ME1 to ME2 with lowering age restriction... So I was speaking from purely practical and very real point of view not from some idealistic imaginary one that you somehow saw in my post.
Btw, I'm sorry but unfortunately every story has a message, it's not about 'teaching' and 'tutoring', it just has it. If games had true liberty in concept that is not restricted by some laws, there wouldn't be age restrictions and currently ME2 has low age restriction... if they wan't to keep it that way, they need to keep 'good' ending.
Games are for the sake of entertaiment and if you truly believe that then you should not be claiming that either ending is feasible, more realistic. For some people 'good' endings are entertaining and since they payed for it there's no room for bashing them only because they want to be entertained in escapistic way, for having 'not real' ending.
Bottomline is - I wasn't saying anything like you understood and interpreted... I was actually surprised with interpretation when I read your post, guess I wasn't clear enough and usually that's how it is when it comes to forum type of communication.

[Spectre_907]

MajesticJazz wrote...

I do not know if that was a joke but I like that idea.

The reason why I like it is because it sort of goes along the idea that Bioware stated way before ME1 came out about how they wanted this trilogy to cover the idea that a good choice in the short term might actually have negative effects in the long term while bad/negative choices in the short term might actually have good/positive choices in the long run.

It would make ME become more grey instead of the black and white that it currently is. It would be interesting to see that letting the Rachni Queen live while a nice choice in ME1 was actually a bad decision in the long term.

Aside from being susceptible to indoctrination and later succumbing to it again when the Reapers invade, I see no other cause for a negative outcome. However, Mordin and Rana's expertise in indoctrinatin progression might be instrumental in developing a counter to the effect. This might be of benefit to the rachni. If both did not survive, then the given outcome seems possible.

Sajuro wrote...

Like if you made any paragon desicion at all throughout the entire trilogy.
Blew the base? Reapers win
Saved the Council? Reapers win
Freed the Queen? Reapers win
Boost Patriarch's self esteem instead of letting him die? Reapers win.

I wasn't sure if that was a joke but then saw your other post

Modifié par Spectre_907, 08 décembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[klossen4]

ReconTeam wrote...

ME has asari strippers, consorts who rape you, stacks of burnin' corpses, and all sorts of stuff like that. Damn the children!

the consort never rapes me i give in.

[ViktorReznov]

Hejhej1234 wrote...

Shepard being sublty indoctrinated is very likely. Almost a crime of the writers not to include this twist. It's a brilliant execution, the player actively being indoctrinated through the series without even knowing it, but seeing the big picture in the third installment makes it obvious.

I doubt the series as a whole will have a dark ending though. More like an interesting plot-twist.
Multiple ending will be available no doubt.

Definitely a good idea. A nice part of the plot would be Shepard's fight against the Reaper indoctrination. And it's up to the player to decide whether he fights and defeats it, or whether he becomes like Saren.

[Terastar]

I don't even think indoctrination will play a part of Mass Effect 3.

Indoctrination was a tool to be used in order to insure that the way for the reapers return would succeed.

The reapers are on their way now although it was not done in the manner that they preferred because of Shepard's interference.

There is no need for anymore indoctrination's.

Now there is a need for thinking machines and living beings to learn to get along. (Geth and Quarian's) and the Geth need to learn their purpose in the universe. EDI already has excepted her place and made her choice.

[Wompoo]

After seeing that cloud of Reapers in dark space inbound at the end of ME2... I give the galaxy zero chance. The past 2 MEs have not built a force or possible allies strong enough to stand against that fleet. However, there is EDI and her Reeper tec..., other then that, I see a suicide run from galactic forces as they try buy Sheppard time (maybe a 50 million year old super computer, who's final instruction was create a Reeper virus /tongue in cheek on that one). Game out come (Reepers win or loose) based on the morality decisions of 2 games is not an option... I most certainly do not want to play through ME 1 and 2 again, there is just not enough re playability in the stories.

[Manic Sheep]

Terastar wrote...

I don't even think indoctrination will play a part of Mass Effect 3.
Indoctrination was a tool to be used in order to insure that the way for the reapers return would succeed.
The reapers are on their way now although it was not done in the manner that they preferred because of Shepard's interference.
There is no need for anymore indoctrination's.
Now there is a need for thinking machines and living beings to learn to get along. (Geth and Quarian's) and the Geth need to learn their purpose in the universe. EDI already has excepted her place and made her choice.

They didn't use indoctrination exclusively to return, they used the keepers for that until protheans killed that plan and it’s not about getting along. They used indoctrination to flush out survivors and infiltrate groups. Why wouldn't they use it now?

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 09 décembre 2010 - 05:11 .