146 réponses à ce sujet

[Frotality]

OP, your concerns seem to center around far more than the cover system. while it certainly is a factor of the predictable level design, its still not even directly related, and i really dont think we should be encouraging bioware's new love for the "if it doesnt work perfectly scrap it" development process.

tactically, we shouldnt have to rely on just cover to get through a fight (depending on class), but that is a matter of adding new options, not taking one away. lazily designed level structure isnt a product of cover system, but of lazy designers. there are plenty of ways to streamline cover into a believable level design without making 3/4 of the game take place in a waist high box factory, they just need to implement more believable objects to use for cover, and put them in spots that make sense for the enviroment and not just the combat scenario. the linear combat focused mission structure of ME2 is the real problem here OP.

[Selvec_Darkon]

Dumping a core component of a game series gameplay, at the end of that particular series, would have to be the stupidest idea I have ever heard.

Modifié par Selvec_Darkon, 24 février 2010 - 06:51 .

[Omega-202]

HarnessedYeti wrote...


That's the complete 180 degree opposite of what I want.  I would almost take turn based combat over
the cover system. 

HarnessedYeti wrote...

Every mission :
Ok, this guys wounded, maybe I should talk to him
Now, everybody take cover and do this about 500 times till
the next dude we talk to.
Whats this...a named NPC thats stronger than the others at the end of this crate factory? Take him down.
Lets go flip those three switches that do.....something....and while were at it
take cover again because everytime I flip a switch, it seems to be the signal to release another
swarm of (put generic bad guy group name here).
You wanted to run back to a room you were in and look at something? Sorry, every so often a door slams shut behind you to ensure you'll continue to ....(go back to the top of this post)
That in a nut shell is Biowares level design.

Everything but the excised part perfectly describes BioWare's turn based games.  

Honestly, take out that small part and you described every "dungeon" area in KotOR, Dragon Age and Jade Empire.  Hell, its the same as ME 1.  

Talk to someone, enter an obvious "combat area", wipe out next wave, complete objective, get ambushed, talk to someone, fight boss who is nothing but souped up minion.  

Your problem doesn't seem to lie with the formula or BioWare's design.  It seems to be an adversion to Third Person Shooters and a desire to have a Turn Based game instead.  The only valid response: too bad.  

BioWare has turn based games out.  They took a crack at something different.  A lot of people like it.  You don't.  Its not a failing of the game, its your dislike of the combat system.  

[HeavyTankZA]

turn based in my mass effectz? nevar!



seriously though, to switch to turn based now will be in a word, stupid.



they already built the game on decently paced gun play. changing it out now will be a very bad design descision

[Qwepir]

HeavyTankZA wrote...

turn based in my mass effectz? nevar!

seriously though, to switch to turn based now will be in a word, stupid.

they already built the game on decently paced gun play. changing it out now will be a very bad design descision

While I have to admit I don't like cover "systems," (in that you snap to cover and can look around without exposing yourself) changing it now would be a bad idea. And it's not like the cover game-breaking or anything. If it was, they would have probably already switched.

[MajorStranger]

Yes! Bioware should ditch the cover based combat! They should also stop doing video game, become a cookie factory and give their cookies for free in exchange of a stupid question like "Should Bioware ditch the cover based combat?"

[TornadoADV]

ivan.inverse wrote...

HarnessedYeti wrote...

I for one think so. It's trite, tired and cliched. For all
ME's strengths, this just about breaks the game for me. It
would probably make the level design feel more natural since
they wouldn't constantly be having to make sure that you've got a
crate or desk to duck behind every ten feet.

Was this some higher ups bright idea that this go in and stay in for all
three games or something?

It just does not go with the rest of the game. Period.

...

All you members of the community in the military? ANY military.

Are you trained to fire at enemies from cover, or while circle-strafing out in the open?

It sure would of been nice to have plenty of indestructible waist high crates in the combat zone when I was in the service. Mass Effect combat lacks dynamics, it's either A.) Shoot part of body sticking out from cover. B.) Focus fire on foes programmed to charge you out in the open. C.) Pop enemy out of cover with ability.

That's it, I've described 90% of all combat in Mass Effect. At least in ME1 we had the Mako.

[MajorStranger]

" did he just talk about the mako in a good way? clearly this guy's position doesn't worth a thing. What's next?



Get the fraking inventory of hell back?

[Marta Rio]

Frotality wrote...

OP, your concerns seem to center around far more than the cover system. while it certainly is a factor of the predictable level design, its still not even directly related, and i really dont think we should be encouraging bioware's new love for the "if it doesnt work perfectly scrap it" development process.

tactically, we shouldnt have to rely on just cover to get through a fight (depending on class), but that is a matter of adding new options, not taking one away. lazily designed level structure isnt a product of cover system, but of lazy designers. there are plenty of ways to streamline cover into a believable level design without making 3/4 of the game take place in a waist high box factory, they just need to implement more believable objects to use for cover, and put them in spots that make sense for the enviroment and not just the combat scenario. the linear combat focused mission structure of ME2 is the real problem here OP.

completely agree with this

[itsdynamitebaby]

I love the cover system, but it is a bit too awkward sometimes. For instance using the sprint button to try and retreat or charge usally makes you dive into cover that is nearby or that you barely bump into. I find myself in cover facing the enemy leaving me vulnerable (not so bad in normal mode, devastating in Insanity mode). And try and detach from cover in a hurry. See how that works when an YMIR mech has strutted up to your hiding spot.



Anyone find it weird that when you are squatting against a waist-high container that your head is still exposed and none of the enemy are shooting at it? I know I've taken advantage of some stupid enemies doing the exact same thing my Shepard seems to be doing.



Lastly, and this goes back to some earlier points about combat, aren't soldiers taught to avoid exposing themselves to fire? I hate having to pop up from behind my waist-high cover in order to shoot. Or step completely out from behind a pillar to aim down a room. For now I just tell myself that soldiers of the future rely too much on armor and kinetic barriers and have forgotten how to protect themselves.



Mild rant aside, I like this cover style but it could definitely use a bit of tweaking. Even if they keep it exactly the same for ME3, I imagine I'd still get the game, play, and enjoy.

[Acero Azul]

 To be honest it make the game better, i do miss crouch, but who can run around taking bullets all day and not die? cover is a good addition and should be kept.

[Kekse2k]

Now that I think of it, the cover system in ME2 greatly resembles the cover system in Matt Hazard: Eat Lead (amazingly hilarious game) with the exception that, in Eat Lead, you could designate a waypoint that would make your character run to it. It was a lot more flexible than ME2's current system, where you (on the XBOX) hold down A, go in a general direction, and hope that you will get what you are aiming for.

Anyways, I think it would be more helpful if the conveniently-placed cover walls/blocks/etc. were destructible, but not as flimsy as those fragile crates (iirc, this was done in Eat Lead as well, and Matt Hazard had to continuously move from cover to cover). That would be excellent (please note that I am not saying ME2 should be more like Eat Lead, I just liked that cover system -- the endless horde minions that need to be killed until a certain waypoint was reached is tedious, both in Eat Lead and ME2).

Perhaps a way to get around the conveniently-placed cover would be that...uhm...you can...carry...something with you...like a shield...okay that's getting into the Gears of War shield...erm...well...uh...I think I've run out of crap to say.

[Kalfear]

HarnessedYeti wrote...

I for one think so. It's trite, tired and cliched. For all
ME's strengths, this just about breaks the game for me. It
would probably make the level design feel more natural since
they wouldn't constantly be having to make sure that you've got a
crate or desk to duck behind every ten feet.

Was this some higher ups bright idea that this go in and stay in for all
three games or something?

It just does not go with the rest of the game. Period.

nope, im no shooter fan but I didnt really mind the combat!

Didnt see this magical betterment over ME1 that the shooter crowsa all aflutter about but what ever.

Cover based combat was fine, I want Bioware to focus on the RPG side of things for ME3.
Mass Effect is never going to sell like a pure shooter cause its got to much story so best Bioware cuts its losses and tries for the 3.5 million DA:O fans rather then the 2.1 million ME2 fans and deliver on the RPG aspect of game.

The combat is good and passes, no need to waste yet more time and resources on it.

[TornadoADV]

MajorStranger wrote...

-_-" did he just talk about the mako in a good way? clearly this guy's position doesn't worth a thing. What's next?

Get the fraking inventory of hell back?

Not my fault you have the hand-eye coordination of a orangutan, don't blame the Mako for your ineptness. I could vault mountains and climb nigh vertical surfaces in that baby. Plus getting to play Mario Bros. with a 30 ton armored vehicle never get's old.

Same thing for the inventory. Can't find anything wrong with it at all besides the scrolling within a type of item was a bit slow.

Modifié par TornadoADV, 24 février 2010 - 08:19 .

[Massadonious1]

Sure, why not. I'm sure a lot of you long for the days where all you needed to do was spam immunity while spamming your unable to overheat Spectre weapons.

[TornadoADV]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Sure, why not. I'm sure a lot of you long for the days where all you needed to do was spam immunity while spamming your unable to overheat Spectre weapons.

Because it's not like we all don't spam Revenant, Claymore and Widow right? Just Spectre class with different names, get over it.

[Massadonious1]

But at least these weapons have a penatly mechanic that you can't trivialize, and actually forces you to use cover.



God forbid you can't eat a few clips of weapons fire before you have to even worry about getting out of the way.

[smudgedhorizon]

Oh please god YES!



I honestly don't see what is so fun about walking into an area full of convenient waist high walls, ducking behind the nearest one then playing 'pop-up-shoot-enemy-duck-down-regen-shield' ad infinitum.



For me, while ME1 wasn't up to generic shooter combat standards, it was pure, unashamed fun. Combat in ME2 left me feeling bored and more than a couple of times frustrated.

[TornadoADV]

Massadonious1 wrote...

But at least these weapons have a penatly mechanic that you can't trivialize, and actually forces you to use cover.

God forbid you can't eat a few clips of weapons fire before you have to even worry about getting out of the way.

If you don't have solid shields boosted with mods or electronics, they vanished in ME1 Insanity. Just play through it without using Immunity for once. It's not like they were firing pea shooters at you in ME1.

Also, I don't "need" to use cover after I get the two upgrades to Medi-Gel. I can simply charge into the fight, apply medi-gel for full health/shields and repeat.

[Neuzhelin]

HarnessedYeti wrote...

I for one think so. It's trite, tired and cliched. For all
ME's strengths, this just about breaks the game for me. It
would probably make the level design feel more natural since
they wouldn't constantly be having to make sure that you've got a
crate or desk to duck behind every ten feet.

Was this some higher ups bright idea that this go in and stay in for all
three games or something?

It just does not go with the rest of the game. Period.

You can try vanguard class. I took little to no cover in most battles while chain charging. (insanity)

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 24 février 2010 - 08:35 .

[ProjectEclipse]

Yes, they should abandon it because it's you know.... In a shoot out, it's smarter to stand in the open and get shot...... Like way back when. Bioware should give us space muzzle loaders and Shepard and his/her squad mates can stand in formation while taking shots at the guys who are also standing in formation!



Taking out a core element of the combat would be a very dumb thing to do. Gold I say! Why not just make the Reapers nanomachines for ME3?

[mnrqz]

HarnessedYeti wrote...

I for one think so. It's trite, tired and cliched. For all
ME's strengths, this just about breaks the game for me. It
would probably make the level design feel more natural since
they wouldn't constantly be having to make sure that you've got a
crate or desk to duck behind every ten feet.

Was this some higher ups bright idea that this go in and stay in for all
three games or something?

It just does not go with the rest of the game. Period.

I'd argue (along with pretty much everyone else) that the cover design is part of the best gameplay features. I'm not sure how it would "break" the game, these are SOLDIERS and they aren't immortal.

But.. I will agree with the obvious cover designs, My first play through I pretty  much knew a fight was coming if i saw oddly placed pieces of wall in the middle of a walkway.

But that's pretty much it.

[Seraphael]

HarnessedYeti wrote...

I for one think so. It's trite, tired and cliched. For all ME's strengths, this just about breaks the game for me.

Doesn't sound like you have any clue whatsoever about real combat. Cover is a huge improvement both in terms of realism and gameplay. Running and gunning without pause, now THAT is trite, tired and cliched.

Modifié par Seraphael, 24 février 2010 - 08:48 .