146 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

Keep cover. I like this combat system. Nothing wrong with it. It's also much more realistic than standing in the open asking to be shot. Shepard isn't Master Chief.

[Shotokanguy]

I dislike how much of an emphasis there is on it. I'd like to be able to move around a bit more when there are multiple enemies still out and have a chance to do something before I need to get back into cover.

[Joseph_Shepard]

Ditching the cover based combat would be the dumbest thing Bioware could do. I love how combat in ME in general is realistic, at least compared to games like Halo where you can eat rocket launchers and take on twenty men armed with assault rifles with your bare hands... I like having a shooter that takes skill.

[eisc0rn]

To clear up all the false knowledge about cover:

"Diagram A through C show different proximities to cover. The area indicated in red shows the area of vision obscured by cover.

Diagram
A Shows the operator leaning on cover to shoot around it. Such close
proximity to cover severely limits vision around cover, reducing the
area the operator can dominate with his firepower. The proximity to
cover not only decreases the operators situational awareness but
reduces the space where the user can manipulate his weapon and also
does not adequately conceal the position of the operator. In this
position the operator's weapon and muzzle flash present visual target
indicators. If the operator is leaning against the wall his posture is
less fluid and mobile, inhibiting his ability to move in an emergency.

Diagram
B Shows the operator further back from cover, this is the preferred
distance from cover where the operator's whole body and weapon is
shielded by cover. The obscured area beyond cover is reduced allowing
the operator to dominate more area with his firepower. At this distance
muzzle flash will not be visible beyond the wall. The sound of the
weapon fired will also be reflected off cover reducing the enemy's
ability to pinpoint the gunfire of the operator.

Diagram C shows
the operator pushing further off the wall to increase the area of
domination. All the benefits of position B still apply. As long as the
player keeps a fluid position the proximity of cover can be varied to
either maximize awareness or protection as necessary.

Diagram D
demonstrates how when cover is crowded, the operator cannot see the
enemy but the enemy can certainly see the operator! The exposed weapon
is a dead giveaway for the operators position, which an unseen enemy
can either fire upon or in this case flank around the operator.

Additional concerns on crowding cover;

- Cover isn't always an uncomplicated brick wall. Weapons and equipment can get hung up on cover.
-
Cover sometimes has apertures in it at varying heights. If you are
crowding cover this makes them difficult to shoot through and easy to
be shot through.
- Bullets ricocheting/tracking cover can reflect into an operator leaning on it.
- Explosive weapons can detonate on a piece of cover the operator is leaning on.
- Impacts on cover can generate secondary fragments that can distract/injure/kill the operator.
-
Weapon moving parts assemblies that make contact with cover can cause
the weapon to malfunction. (Handgun slide assemblies, charging handles,
etc.)
- Leaning on cover reduces the fluidity of the postures that
can be employed from behind cover. Whether they be leaning out or
shooting rolled out from prone.
- Consider if you will the
possibility that the thing you are using as cover may occasionally be
ON FIRE covered in SHARP STICKS or the EBOLA VIRUS.
- Leaning up on
cover, to shoot you need to turn the corner, raise the weapon, aquire
the target, aim and pull the trigger. When all you really need to do is
aim and pull the trigger.

In summary;

- Cover is cover as long as it stops bullets. You do not have to be touching it. You should NOT be touching it.
- The further away from cover, the larger the sector of domination.
- Crowding cover gives away your position and makes your life unnecessarily complicated and difficult.
- Extremely close proximities to cover are the exception, not the rule.
- Crowding cover has limited practical benefit.
- 'Cover systems' are retarded.
- Don't crowd cover!"

        ~Shakken

Modifié par eisc0rn, 24 février 2010 - 10:59 .

[Taritu]

I like organic cover. In ME1 I would dodge behind walls to let my shield recover, and so on. I actually spent very little time behind crates. I could move fluidly, taking advantage of cover without being "in" cover.



I'm not too concerned with how things work in real life when it comes to games (fun is king) but I'll add that as the poster above indicates, "crowding" cover really isn't how soldiers do it in real life. And movement and cover should be used together. ME1 had some systemtic problems (aka immunity) but it actually felt more real to me, especially since you just don't always have a lot of convenient cover around.

[TornadoADV]

Pretty much, the only saving grace is that ME is third person, not first person and allows you to "cheat" the system.

[Miths]

eisc0rn, even if it made sense to try to completely apply real world combat strategies to computer games, it would certainly never be relevant at all in games without a first person perspective.

Third person shooters allow you, the player, to look around and over corners and obstacles that your character can't.

[eisc0rn]

Miths wrote...

eisc0rn, even if it made sense to try to completely apply real world combat strategies to computer games, it would certainly never be relevant at all in games without a first person perspective.
Third person shooters allow you, the player, to look around and over corners and obstacles that your character can't.

that is true, just wanted to clear up that ME's cover system is NOT realistic which is pretty much the contrary to what most people here think

but I do think ME's cover system needs to be overhauled, it's simply weird that your character is 100% safe from any damage just by pushing himself against a little crate, even though many body parts are exposed. Not to mention rockets

It's simply the fact that you need to use crowding cover to survive, which annoys me. Not using crowding cover in ME1 often helped, but it simply isn't possible anymore. You can't even crouch

Modifié par eisc0rn, 24 février 2010 - 11:25 .

[Petsura]

NO!



It's the first different thing I noticed about ME2 in comparison to its prequel.

Would you rather go back to running around through an open field while shooting everything that runs towards you without any problems?(which is rather funny, since you had to depend on cover in ME1 as well)



Go back to Halo if this is what you want but don't bother the Mass Effect devs about it.

[DarthCaine]

Sten: No

[eisc0rn]

Petsura wrote...

NO!

It's the first different thing I noticed about ME2 in comparison to its prequel.
Would you rather go back to running around through an open field while shooting everything that runs towards you without any problems?(which is rather funny, since you had to depend on cover in ME1 as well)

Go back to Halo if this is what you want but don't bother the Mass Effect devs about it.

did you even read my post? My intention was to inform about cover, I didn't say I wanted 100% realistic cover ingame. I just said the current system needs some improvements, like cover getting blown up by rockets. Just because you're pushing yourself against some thin piece of metal doesn't mean you're safe.

Also, halo sucks

Modifié par eisc0rn, 24 février 2010 - 11:40 .

[Qwepir]

Qwepir wrote...
Back in my day, cover was going behind a burned out tank and crouching. We had to actually expose ourselves to see if we were in danger.

Qwepir wrote...
I'm not saying that we should be some hybrid of man and refrigerator, but the whole snap-to-cover system is just pretty lame, because you run behind  a box, wait for the enemy to stop firing, then pop up and start shooting back. It's almost like you're taking turns.

Just in case nobody apart from Tornado saw my post.

[eisc0rn]

Qwepir wrote...

Qwepir wrote...
Back in my day, cover was going behind a burned out tank and crouching. We had to actually expose ourselves to see if we were in danger.

Qwepir wrote...
I'm not saying that we should be some hybrid of man and refrigerator, but the whole snap-to-cover system is just pretty lame, because you run behind  a box, wait for the enemy to stop firing, then pop up and start shooting back. It's almost like you're taking turns.

Just in case nobody apart from Tornado saw my post.

exactly

Modifié par eisc0rn, 24 février 2010 - 11:53 .

[Jackal904]

No.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

Come on the answer is obvious....





NO!



It's part of the reason I hated playing 3rd person shooters on the previous gen consoles. (That and lousy/non-existent camera angle control) Mass Effect and GTA 4 are the first 3rd person shooters I enjoyed because there was a cover system. It wasn't perfect, but it did it's job well enough to keep you alive. ME2 improved on the cover system even more, but unfortunately abandoned crouching which was a surprise to me. My hope was that BW would have introduced a prone position so that on certain occasions where there is minimal cover you can lay prone to minimize yourself as a target. As an added plus you can use prone to steady sniper rifles and machine guns for more consistent firing.



The only problem with incorporating prone into the current ME-ME2 combat system is that combat generally in the game is too confined, more so in ME2. You'd be an easy target for charging Krogans. If there is any change That I would like to see in ME3 it would to have battlegrounds that are less obvious and confining.

[TheShogunOfHarlem]

eisc0rn wrote...

Miths wrote...

eisc0rn, even if it made sense to try to completely apply real world combat strategies to computer games, it would certainly never be relevant at all in games without a first person perspective.
Third person shooters allow you, the player, to look around and over corners and obstacles that your character can't.

that is true, just wanted to clear up that ME's cover system is NOT realistic which is pretty much the contrary to what most people here think

but I do think ME's cover system needs to be overhauled, it's simply weird that your character is 100% safe from any damage just by pushing himself against a little crate, even though many body parts are exposed. Not to mention rockets

It's simply the fact that you need to use crowding cover to survive, which annoys me. Not using crowding cover in ME1 often helped, but it simply isn't possible anymore. You can't even crouch

So you would prefer destructible cover? I would too. I do agree that having a rocket explode so close to you without having any adverse effects is odd.  It's very common in the popular shooters. It bugs me a bit but I just assume that either game developers aren't interested in that level of realism or they are unable to because of technology constraints. I do think more practicality in cover systems and damage is still something that might be further away in the future since too few games are employing destructible environments. 

[phordicus]

they just need better level design. crate layouts and rock walls so ridiculously telegraphing the upcoming battle was laughable. the worse problem was seeing these attacker-friendly objects 10' away from the hapless defenders who would never leave those things standing outside their base/lair/hangout.

[podmark]

I like the cover. It wouldn't be the same game without it.

[vhatever]

I think they should just mix it up a little more. Like, for insance, Grunt's loyalty quest is always one of my favorites because it gets you out the "cover, cover, move, cover" etc. mentality. So maybe 1/3 of the game maybe make the enemies/environment more like his loyalty quest-- maybe fighting in the wide open outside environment for them.

[Trauma3x]

9999999!!!!

[Laterali]

They just need to have better level design. The obvious battle scenes with boxes and waist high walls were bad enough, but on Purgatory when waist high walls actually sprung up form the ground I shook my head in disbelief.



If BioWare wants to take a good look at an amazing cover-combat game, they need to go pick up a PS3, and play Uncharted 2. That game has THE best cover-combat system ever made. And all of the cover is natural looking and blends in with the environment. There are only a handful of times where it seems like boxes were placed there just for cover. If they can tweak their cover system to match Uncharted's, I'd be happy.