515 réponses à ce sujet

[Elfseeker]

First of all, one thing ought to appear evident; Their time is not our time. A LOT of things goes into that idea.
'concubines' is all but expected, rulers had much less privacy and personal influence on their people and thus needed much better control of themselves, and a few other things I can't think of right now. Essentially it's ludicrous to judge them by our standards.

Secondly, I suspect many of you ignore the 'request/instruction' to go talk to her in her room after rescue. HIGHLY recommended. There, as everywhere else, she speaks plainly and straightforwardly. No lies, No backstabbing, no betrayals. Every time it appears as if she undercuts you, -you- have done it to -her-. Either by a wrong word or action, or by not following the railroad tracks(talk to her after rescue). Listen to what she tells you(pre-rescue as well), and take a moment to consider it. Then realize that the final battle at Howe's is by all accounts -supposed- to be unwinnable. You either fight and she gets away in the chaos, or the gang takes you away, and she slips away -outfitted as a guard-. Just as we don't play through sleeping and 'bush-visits', that we recognize her, don't mean the chars in the game does.

Thirdly, getting rather tired of reading how she is a 'cold fish', 'ice queen' and otherwise insulting and highly unsuitable things. I wonder if anyone here has any notion what a 'cold' person is really like...?
Anora ain't it.
She is efficient, straightforward, and in control of herself. Keeping her poise. If she didn't, if she carried her heart on her sleeve, as it were, i think history would prove her chances of effective rule near nil. You don't let the troops see you worry. Same goes for the 'civil' side of things. How can you expect the country you lead to be at peace if you are not?

Finally, she's -been- ruling the country for the better part of five years. She's not -taking- anything at all.
Consider; you've ruled a country for five years, then you end up kicked off your throne and tucked away in a cell, prospects less than good for your continued survival, and the country heading for certain ruin. Would you let the throne sail on without you, or would you try to get it back?
As she apparently did a good job in those five years, I would guess her motivations at least partially involved concern for the her people(and as rightly pointed out elsewhere, her people = the humans. She needs Alistair's balancing hand to not go overboard with the elves).

Conclusion, she is a woman in command of herself, who cares about her country and has a tendency to *gasp* put all the cards on the table.

As for the 'Ice queen' thing....observe her when her father is killed at landsmeet...nuff said.
(nevermind that she has heat aplenty at other times. No ice there)

[Maria Caliban]

I think she suffers as much from positioning as anything else. She's an obstacle and she can marry Alistair, which makes her a rival for some people. Unlike her father, Anora doesn’t get a large backstory, and you never get to recruit her and try to know her as a person.

[Herr Uhl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think she suffers as much from positioning as anything else. She's an obstacle and she can marry Alistair, which makes her a rival for some people. Unlike her father, Anora doesn’t get a large backstory, and you never get to recruit her and try to know her as a person.

This. And her reluctance to throw herself over Alastair/HNM PC in wuw apparently makes her an ice queen.

[IanPolaris]

Sorry, but I'm not buying it (and I always speak to Anora before going into the Alienage).



First of all, it's incredibly clear to me (and it's confirmed later by Logain if you have him in your group....and Logain at that point has no point in lying to you) that Anora wasn't actually in danger at any time at least from Logain. Logain himself calls Anora what she is; a master manipulator. For that matter so does Howe and so does Arl Eamon himself. Thus it's quite clear to me that Anora is manipulating you (the Grey Warden) into rescuing her because she sees it as a win-win situation for herself. If her father prevails, she obviously stays on the throne. However, if she gets "rescued" by the Grey Warden, then she at least has a solid fall-back plan that's also likely to keep her on the throne.



Also that last battle is with Logain's troops led by Ser Cauthrien. Cauthrien might back up Logain to the hilt, but there is NO WAY she would out and out murder Anora. All Anora has to do is back up the PC and Ser Cauthrien would be honor bound to let her go especially since her orders didn't cover the queen. Instead the queen takes the first opportunity to stab you in the back. Again Logain confirms later several times that his daughter was never in danger from him at any time.



Also there is the fact that Anora is probably barren. That factors into Anora's behavior. The PCs won't know that unless they do RtO but that affects things as well.



Also if you read the epilog, Anona as ruling queen doesn't do a very good job. Of the four options (Anora alone, Alistair alone, Anora+Alistair, Alistair+Female PC), Anora alone is by far the worst for Fereldan (Anora alone and Anora+Male PC are pretty much the same and both bad for Fereldan).



In short, Anora *does* have a reputation of being an ice-queen and it's perfectly well deserved.



-Polaris

[Kryyptehk]

I always talk to her and I still think that she is kind of a witch. That's not necessarily a bad thing. My character is a lot like her.

However, compared to Maric as a brave ruler who would fight for her kingdom...well she isn't that. I don't think she actually cares about Ferelden, just her position. She allows her father to ravage the country she is supposed to be ruling and says nothing against him until, ta-da!, your character comes along. Do I think she would eventually go against her father to save her country, absolutely not. She ran to Arl Howe to get his help when he is pretty much fueling the fire of the civil war.

She may be a good leader, but she is a coward and not a very good replacement to the Theirin line. And she's kind of dumb.

Modifié par Kryyptehk, 24 février 2010 - 06:21 .

[Kryyptehk]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sorry, but I'm not buying it (and I always speak to Anora before going into the Alienage).

First of all, it's incredibly clear to me (and it's confirmed later by Logain if you have him in your group....and Logain at that point has no point in lying to you) that Anora wasn't actually in danger at any time at least from Logain. Logain himself calls Anora what she is; a master manipulator. For that matter so does Howe and so does Arl Eamon himself. Thus it's quite clear to me that Anora is manipulating you (the Grey Warden) into rescuing her because she sees it as a win-win situation for herself. If her father prevails, she obviously stays on the throne. However, if she gets "rescued" by the Grey Warden, then she at least has a solid fall-back plan that's also likely to keep her on the throne.

Also that last battle is with Logain's troops led by Ser Cauthrien. Cauthrien might back up Logain to the hilt, but there is NO WAY she would out and out murder Anora. All Anora has to do is back up the PC and Ser Cauthrien would be honor bound to let her go especially since her orders didn't cover the queen. Instead the queen takes the first opportunity to stab you in the back. Again Logain confirms later several times that his daughter was never in danger from him at any time.

Also there is the fact that Anora is probably barren. That factors into Anora's behavior. The PCs won't know that unless they do RtO but that affects things as well.

Also if you read the epilog, Anona as ruling queen doesn't do a very good job. Of the four options (Anora alone, Alistair alone, Anora+Alistair, Alistair+Female PC), Anora alone is by far the worst for Fereldan (Anora alone and Anora+Male PC are pretty much the same and both bad for Fereldan).

In short, Anora *does* have a reputation of being an ice-queen and it's perfectly well deserved.

-Polaris

Perfectly said and I agree 100%.

+10

[ReubenLiew]

*sighs*

She rats you out because you ratted her out. She doesn't know Cauthrien's orders, and it could very likely involve taking the Queen back to Loghain for all she knows.

Revealing her at that point only proclaims the fact to Anora that the PC is a massive idiot, and backing him/her up was probably a stupid choice.

[Elfseeker]

She does not -let- him do anything, the way I see it. He -takes- control.

As for her not being a leader of men...of course not. Civil and Military command has ever been two different things. That's what she had Cailan for(or rather, ruling the country in general is what Cailan had her for. ).



As I pointed out, you need her with Alistair for a properly rounded out ruling style. She knows how to handle a country, he knows how to handle people...or at least seems to learn very fast.



And i again point out that anyone who claims her to be 'cold', has never encountered any such person.

For one, a completely cold and calculating person would not care that the one man that would serve the 'people-person' part of ruling the country had just killed her father. She'd still 'hook up' with him for the benefits alone. She has no such intention. Stubborn? absolutely. Efficient? certainly. Cold? Not at all. I would ask people to pay attention to the cutscenes. At no point does she 'allow' her father to do anything. As for why she refrains from having him punished as befits a throne-stealer, well...she, as opposed to him at that point, can see clearly enough to recognize that blood is thicker than water. She is later not at all certain he has the same clarity of vision.

[DalishRanger]

I'm one of the few people that seems to be completely neutral on her. I do think she's rather manipulative, but I have to agree with Reuben - she doesn't backstab you unless you prove yourself to be a gigantic idiot - or if you make it clear you intend to replace her/threaten her position. I can't blame her for planning to betray the Warden if it comes to that. Politics are a dirty business, and Anora knows that well. Whether this is an admirable character trait or not is debatable/opinion, but I'd hardly call all of her actions unreasonable.

[Elfseeker]

Precisely. She informs you that she must -not- be revealed to either party. Doing so, then, is a betrayal of -her- trust, not the other way around.

As for 'no threat of being taken by Loghain's soldiers'...those are what you encounter in trying to leave. that's supposedly Loghain's 'honor guard' right there. Once she's out of there and safely tucked away among 'friends'...of course she's safe. it's the time between leaving her cell and closing the door behind her in the new location that's the danger.

[Kryyptehk]

Elfseeker wrote...

She does not -let- him do anything, the way I see it. He -takes- control.
As for her not being a leader of men...of course not. Civil and Military command has ever been two different things. That's what she had Cailan for(or rather, ruling the country in general is what Cailan had her for. ).

As I pointed out, you need her with Alistair for a properly rounded out ruling style. She knows how to handle a country, he knows how to handle people...or at least seems to learn very fast.

And i again point out that anyone who claims her to be 'cold', has never encountered any such person.
For one, a completely cold and calculating person would not care that the one man that would serve the 'people-person' part of ruling the country had just killed her father. She'd still 'hook up' with him for the benefits alone. She has no such intention. Stubborn? absolutely. Efficient? certainly. Cold? Not at all. I would ask people to pay attention to the cutscenes. At no point does she 'allow' her father to do anything. As for why she refrains from having him punished as befits a throne-stealer, well...she, as opposed to him at that point, can see clearly enough to recognize that blood is thicker than water. She is later not at all certain he has the same clarity of vision.

Jeez, let go of the cold thing. Sure, she sucks as a leader, she's a manipulative witch who sacrifices her entire kingdom so not to anger daddy. But she's not cold so ppl plz STFU about mi luva kthnxbi

[ReubenLiew]

And also, apparently some of us read the epilogue different because as far as I can tell the only bad thing about Anora's rule was the elves get slammed for RIOTING, which even in this age is a severe crime.

Her solo rule brings Fereldan to a new economic golden age. The only few notable things Alistair does as king is be well liked by his people, and made an elf a councillor, which did not result in an elf riot for some reason or another, apparently they forgot there was a draught that caused famine. He does not even bother to rule the country, he steps aside for Eamon to do his thing.

Alistair and Anora was a perfect combination of a well-liked king and a powerful rise for the county.

[Xandurpein]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think she suffers as much from positioning as anything else. She's an obstacle and she can marry Alistair, which makes her a rival for some people. Unlike her father, Anora doesn’t get a large backstory, and you never get to recruit her and try to know her as a person.

That is so true. There is also a lot made of the fact that in the end title there are these riots in the alienage if Anora rules alone, but not if Alistair rules alone, which many people like to twist out of all proportions. The way some people claim it proves she is an oppressive tyrant, I could argue that Alistair wants to force the country into an ignorant backwater, because he won't build the university - either proposal is a gross overstatement.

She also suffers from the connection to her father in that Loghain is the best source of background information about her. So you need to pardon Loghain and take the time to talk to him too, to even hear the stories of Anora as a child, which most people who like Alistair never do.

Elfseeker wrote...

Thirdly, getting rather tired of reading how she is a 'cold fish', 'ice
queen' and otherwise insulting and highly unsuitable things. I wonder
if anyone here has any notion what a 'cold' person is really like...?
Anora ain't it.
She
is efficient, straightforward, and in control of herself. Keeping her
poise. If she didn't, if she carried her heart on her sleeve, as it
were, i think history would prove her chances of effective rule near
nil. You don't let the troops see you worry. Same goes for the 'civil'
side of things. How can you expect the country you lead to be at peace
if you are not?

I do agree fully. You may disagree with her policies, but she is not a 'cold fish' by any stretch on imagination. She is 'regal' to be sure, but she has lots of feelings. She will show you examples of being witty, funny, grieving and shy all in a the few lines you can get out of her in the game, if you just bother to look for it.

And to those who think Anora alone, is the worst possible outcome - let's just say that it is a highly debatable subject. Personally I think Alistair ruling alone is a lot worse for Fereldan than Anora alone, but I think the real truth is that it will depend a lot on circumstances. Alistair and Anora both have faults that, under the right set of circumstances, can lead to disaster, unless someone can mitigate these faults, but both of them have it in them to be truly great monarchs, again under the right set of circumstances.

[Elfseeker]

Might be a difference of opinion that cannot be resolved, but I see those scenes as Loghain assuming command without even bothering to glance Anora's way. And by the time she realizes he's gone off the deep end, it's much too late.

Meek and submissive she is not...for anyone. I figure he'd have words for her if she had been, even towards him. He appreciates being straightforward and efficient. Probably has left such things as 'love' on a shelf somewhere until the 'war' is over.



Small side-note; 'not believing there to be a blight'. Seems nonsense to me, as everything I read in-game would seem to claim that short of an archdemon arising(aka -blight- conditions) there's no darkspawn on the surface. So many enough of them to overwhelm a medium-sized army of wardens and assorted military personnel of the age? Would scream BLIGHT to me....

That it's been a good long while since they were last seen don't exactly help. But nevermind that.

[Kryyptehk]

ReubenLiew wrote...

And also, apparently some of us read the epilogue different because as far as I can tell the only bad thing about Anora's rule was the elves get slammed for RIOTING, which even in this age is a severe crime.
Her solo rule brings Fereldan to a new economic golden age. The only few notable things Alistair does as king is be well liked by his people, and made an elf a councillor, which did not result in an elf riot for some reason or another, apparently they forgot there was a draught that caused famine. He does not even bother to rule the country, he steps aside for Eamon to do his thing.
Alistair and Anora was a perfect combination of a well-liked king and a powerful rise for the county.

Yeah, but the elves riot because there is a shortage of food. You don't hear about the humans rioting, just the elves. So you have to assume that amongst the humans, yeah everything is swell but she just makes things worst for the elves.

You don't choose who you rule over, she can't just choose to rule over the humans and makes elves give up things for them.

And if you harden Alistair, he is a good leader. I don't know why you would put him on the throne un-hardened because he practically begs you not to.

[Kryyptehk]

Elfseeker wrote...

Might be a difference of opinion that cannot be resolved, but I see those scenes as Loghain assuming command without even bothering to glance Anora's way. And by the time she realizes he's gone off the deep end, it's much too late.
Meek and submissive she is not...for anyone. I figure he'd have words for her if she had been, even towards him. He appreciates being straightforward and efficient. Probably has left such things as 'love' on a shelf somewhere until the 'war' is over.

Small side-note; 'not believing there to be a blight'. Seems nonsense to me, as everything I read in-game would seem to claim that short of an archdemon arising(aka -blight- conditions) there's no darkspawn on the surface. So many enough of them to overwhelm a medium-sized army of wardens and assorted military personnel of the age? Would scream BLIGHT to me....
That it's been a good long while since they were last seen don't exactly help. But nevermind that.

I'm sorry, but jeez, she's the Queen of freaking Ferelden. She could tell her dad to get the frick out and he'd have to. She just doesn't do anything about it. She has an entire armies at her disposal, she can tell some of them to get him out of her castle.

And she does realize that he is destroying her nation. She even confront him about it. And why would she just let him take over anyway? Does she need someone else to help her rule? Arguably, she proves that she can rule by herself. I cannot fathom why she would just step aside to let him rule when she has more claim to the throne than he does.

But yeah, you're probably right about the "unwinnable argument" thing. I'll never think she was worth anything as a ruler and you'll never believe she was that bad. Not necessarily a bad thing.

[Elfseeker]

Alienage=slum. I don't think there is any real argument against this. There will always be worse conditions there than elsewhere in the city, simply because elves are 'second-class citizens'. Even if she should not hold this view herself, her people does...which makes it kind of tricky to improve their lot on the human's 'expense'.



Also, one might argue that she is simply maintaining the 'status quo'. (possibly with a few improvements, generally speaking)

[Kryyptehk]

Elfseeker wrote...

Alienage=slum. I don't think there is any real argument against this. There will always be worse conditions there than elsewhere in the city, simply because elves are 'second-class citizens'. Even if she should not hold this view herself, her people does...which makes it kind of tricky to improve their lot on the human's 'expense'.

Also, one might argue that she is simply maintaining the 'status quo'. (possibly with a few improvements, generally speaking)

I think we might get into real world politics on this thread, which is rarely good.

Without getting into a big debate, should we just let second class citizens die off and as long as the majority is happy, we shouldn't care? I'd hate for the elves to die off just to maintain "status quo".

[Elfseeker]

Correct me if I am wrong, please, but would Loghain not at this point be the ultimate authority over the army? She will at most have palace guards, and he likely got them in his pocket as well. And leading soldiers against the hero of Ferelden? won't -that- make her look good. Not to mention like as not create a third faction in the civil war.



Also, i seem to recall there being observations to the effect that 'military victory is pointless' in these matters. Why we go to landsmeet rather than storm denerim at once.



And yes, she realizes. When she no longer has any real power to speak of, and he rules all. The scene with her inquiring about his guilt regarding Cailian is probably shortly before she gets 'removed' to Howe's estate. On Loghain's orders? Who can say.

That Howe has got to die there can be little doubt about....or?(haven't read either book...yet)

[Cutlass Jack]

Personally I like Anora. Not the same as completely trusting her, but I usually get where's she's coming from. Also I find her hysterical at certain parts.



She scored points with me on two details my Human Male Noble found important. First she genuinely seemed to love Cailan in her way. Secondly as far as she was concerned my family lands should be restored without question.



Doesn't mean I always hand her the throne, but I do appreciate her.

[Elfseeker]

Ah, but a section of the populace dying off would -not- be status quo.

And as you may suspect, I believe she will be out to improve the lot of people in general. As she assumes command, things in the alienage is bad, but survivable(provided you've cleaned the place up a bit, naturally). She needs only maintain that. And as she probably looks at them as citizens of her country, she'll have little interest in them coming to (excessive) harm.

The thing to remember is that she has the whole country to consider. Alienages and the like is what she needs a Cailan for. A 'people person'. There were an arl of Denerim, after all...where the palace is. And he was apparently quite the rat. I'll try to avoid wonderin how he got to, and remained in, power under her rule...but suspect Cailan may carry the blame for that one.

[Kryyptehk]

Elfseeker wrote...

Correct me if I am wrong, please, but would Loghain not at this point be the ultimate authority over the army? She will at most have palace guards, and he likely got them in his pocket as well. And leading soldiers against the hero of Ferelden? won't -that- make her look good. Not to mention like as not create a third faction in the civil war.

Also, i seem to recall there being observations to the effect that 'military victory is pointless' in these matters. Why we go to landsmeet rather than storm denerim at once.

And yes, she realizes. When she no longer has any real power to speak of, and he rules all. The scene with her inquiring about his guilt regarding Cailian is probably shortly before she gets 'removed' to Howe's estate. On Loghain's orders? Who can say.
That Howe has got to die there can be little doubt about....or?(haven't read either book...yet)

As far as I know, Loghain was only in charge of the armies of Gwaren, his terynir. And you forget that Anora was beloved by her people. Perhaps there would have been some repercussion, but Loghain is not so crazy that he would go against the armies of Ferelden.

And she wasn't "removed" the Howe's estate. She went there (stupidly, I might add) to complain about her father to Howe, who poisoned her and locked her in her room.

[Yrkoon]

Elfseeker wrote...

First of all, one thing ought to appear evident; Their time is not our time. A LOT of things goes into that idea.
'concubines' is all but expected, rulers had much less privacy and personal influence on their people and thus needed much better control of themselves, and a few other things I can't think of right now. Essentially it's ludicrous to judge them by our standards.

Secondly, I suspect many of you ignore the 'request/instruction' to go talk to her in her room after rescue. HIGHLY recommended. There, as everywhere else, she speaks plainly and straightforwardly. No lies, No backstabbing, no betrayals. Every time it appears as if she undercuts you, -you- have done it to -her-. Either by a wrong word or action, or by not following the railroad tracks(talk to her after rescue). Listen to what she tells you(pre-rescue as well), and take a moment to consider it. Then realize that the final battle at Howe's is by all accounts -supposed- to be unwinnable. You either fight and she gets away in the chaos, or the gang takes you away, and she slips away -outfitted as a guard-. Just as we don't play through sleeping and 'bush-visits', that we recognize her, don't mean the chars in the game does.

Thirdly, getting rather tired of reading how she is a 'cold fish', 'ice queen' and otherwise insulting and highly unsuitable things. I wonder if anyone here has any notion what a 'cold' person is really like...?
Anora ain't it.

Two things, here.  First off,   The only rational thing that one can  conclude from reading her codex entry AND talking to her her in her room is that she's.... pragmatic.   By definition, that makes her neither cold, nor warm.  However, we do get hints in Return to Ostagar that She may not be the most... firtile of women...  So the claim that she's "frigid"  may be  medically true lol.


Second, I'm not sure  that   there's too many  players out there who don't go and talk to her in her room   when told to do so by the Arl.  It's not only the logical next step, storywise, but  there's a million reasons to do so  for anyone who likes to play this game by taking routes that are "off the tracks".  In my first playthrough, I went to visit her in the hopes that maybe the game would let you assassinate her....  Or sleep with her...  Or get some sort of monitary reward for her rescue, or convince her to marry Alistair or  whatever.  Either way, I can't imagine the casual player deciding not to  take the Arl's advice.  It's a  Quest that's given to you, after all.

She is efficient, straightforward, and in control of herself. Keeping her poise. If she didn't, if she carried her heart on her sleeve, as it were, i think history would prove her chances of effective rule near nil. You don't let the troops see you worry. Same goes for the 'civil' side of things. How can you expect the country you lead to be at peace if you are not?

Finally, she's -been- ruling the country for the better part of five years. She's not -taking- anything at all.
Consider; you've ruled a country for five years, then you end up kicked off your throne and tucked away in a cell, prospects less than good for your continued survival, and the country heading for certain ruin. Would you let the throne sail on without you, or would you try to get it back?
As she apparently did a good job in those five years, I would guess her motivations at least partially involved concern for the her people(and as rightly pointed out elsewhere, her people = the humans. She needs Alistair's balancing hand to not go overboard with the elves).

Conclusion, she is a woman in command of herself, who cares about her country and has a tendency to *gasp* put all the cards on the table.

As for the 'Ice queen' thing....observe her when her father is killed at landsmeet...nuff said.
(nevermind that she has heat aplenty at other times. No ice there)

Oh boy.  A person  in command of themselves.  A person  who cares  about their country and willing to  lay it all on the table, so long as she still has access to the throne.

In other words, She's just like her daddy.


Ok,  I don't neccessarily see that as bad or good.  I do see her as intelligent, since in my games, she takes my side over her father's.  Had she not, then I'd see her as really UNintelligent, and deserving of death...  Like Howe...

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 février 2010 - 07:16 .

[Xandurpein]

There really is some confusion over what formal power Loghain, as Regent, has and what power Anora, as Queen, has when Cailan is dead. At least I don't know exactly.



In practice Anora has virtually no forces loyal to her to command though. The royal army is crow's fodder at Ostagar, and Loghain controls his personal forces, which is by then the largest force in Fereldan. Remeber that Fereldan is a Feudal monarchy, that means that the King or Queen, only had limited armed forces they could control personally, the rest depended upon the loyalty of noblemen. But thanks to Loghain's actions a lot of those where in open rebellion.



The fact that Loghain rules in Anora's name, doesn't really change the fact that Anora seems to have very little force at her disposal. When she does fall out with her father, Howe imprisons her, not the other way around.

[Xandurpein]

There is also the interesting debate over who's fault it is that Anora has produced no heir, or why Cailan is sleeping around with other women. It's interesting to note how many people are willing to take the part of the cheating husband and claim it's all the wife's fault. If she had been more warm to him, he hadn't been forced to find it elsewhere... I don't buy that excuse for a second in real life, nor do I buy it in the game.

Anora even admits that she loved Cailan, even if she knew exactly who he was. She was willing to look the other way, for the sake of her duty, as women many times have been forced to do throughout history...



And it couldn't have been Cailan who was infertile? that 'stud'? no way....