515 réponses à ce sujet

[Alandros]

Drasanil wrote...



First of all since you ignored all the major points I made, I guessing you didn't really have an answer to them...

Right... since I answered your own statement of "In short" instead of your long explanation. I guess I actually assumed your "In short" was a short representation of your entire view.



1) She ruled despite her husband having the "pedigree." It is made apparent she kept the Banns and other rulers in check while being respected. Apparently the majority of the people that mattered viewed her as being just fine despite not having an impecible pedigree. You can argue this all you want but the game states otherwise so fight it's codex entry and what people in the game say and not me. Call them liars and false entries, but it's that and not me that make such claims. It's made obvious that as long as those are semi-accurate she is viewed as a respected ruler by many whether or not her husband has the real pedigree or not. In the end I'll believe the game and it's codex entry over you



2) You state she is weak, the codex entry states she isn't and others in the game support that. Again I'll believe them over you. The King died and yes she is only Queen because she married the King, that's an obvious. No matter how strong of a Queen she is civil war would ensue when people are trying to take power. No single person has an exclusive claim to the throne, hence civil war. People want to take power so they will fight. Such a thing is common and is due to the death of Cailan not to a lacking of her. If she was a weak Queen she wouldn't even have a shot for the throne, on the other hand only her and Alistair have a shot and despite Alistair actually having the bloodline she can be made Queen and accepted just fine. This suggests your statements of her are simply wrong. Again I'll believe the game over you.



3) Right Eamon is obviously a traditionalist who wants the Therin bloodline to continue. This is made obvious in the RtO letters and Loghain himself says this if you keep him alive. Eamon isn't the only voice I'm affraid and quite honestly Eamon is fairly manipulative in his own way.



" putting Anora on the throne alone (or with the HMN) should really cause more problems than putting Alistair alone"



A valid opinion but an opinion, I simply disagree. She's known to rule for five years to me that expresses a level of comfort. A new and unknown King taking the throne on the other hand seems very awkward and it also very much looks like a power play to Eamon which would put the other nobles on edge, while Anora has been ruling as Queen and people know she can do it.



" I get the impression that solo Anora getting a "good" ending, as opposed to political chaos and all the fun of having a largely illegitimate peasant on the throne, was simply done to avoid pissing off those that chose her or those that chose to usurp Alistair."



Again opinion and you can have that opinion... I completely and utterly disagree. Everything in the game suggests she has been a good ruler for the last five years and the epilogue slides suggest she continues on being a good ruler. Why is it so hard for you to believe the game? I mean you don't have to but again your fighting the codex entry, what some say, and the epilogue slides themselves. It seems painfully obvious that Anora is good at governing if very cold, but a strong ruler. The fact that she does what she needs to remain in power suggests that strength. No one is perfect of course and you see the negative side of her. Just like the two Dwarven Kings, one turns out to be a good ruler but goes for total power, while the other keeps tradition but does nothing significant.



4) Yes she backstabs you. She has a dark side, just like everyone else in this game. Duncan is willing to watch people die with an ultimatum to recruit them. The Warden PC can do some pretty horrible things beyond that backstab even. This is a Dark Fantasy, people do what they do to keep and/or gain power, this doesn't mean they're a bad ruler, just have some character flaws. This is realistic, everyone has character flaws, hers are just fairly apparent.



5) Again complete opinion and one I completely disagree with. Everything suggests she keeps the Banns under her control and influence quite well and makes decisions that causes her nation to prosper. Again I'll side with the game's content on this.

What the codex says and what actually is aren't nessessarily the exact same things, you kind of have to read between the lines, Anora was a "strong" leader because Cailan was backing her and giving her an air of legitimacy, if it weren't for that she wouldn't have been able to rule or do much of anything, it was Cailan's strength more than anything else that made her effective, she just knew how to use it/take advantage of him.

Ummm... yes she wouldn't have legitimacy if she didn't marry the King. That's pretty obvious. She's Queen because she married the King, obviously. Cailan's strength didn't make her effective, marrying him put her as Queen. I will believe the codex entry over you when it says that it's common knowledge that she was the one that ruled and that Cailan wasn't the one keeping Ferelden running... I'll quote the codex here:

It is common knowledge that in the five years Anora and Cailan held the throne together, she was the one wielding the power. She is held in much higher esteem than her husband by the people of Ferelden, nobility and commoners alike, and commands the respect even of foreign nations, having once inspired Empress Celene of Orlais to declare, "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles

So either I go with your gut feeling or I go with this Codex. I'll go with the codex. It makes it very apparent she was a respected ruler.

Secondly while Loghain says he didn't "plan" to supplant her, he effectively did so any ways ence the civil war, which is why she is a weak Queen otherwise she would have been able to maintain her authority and there wouldn't have been a civil war in the middle of a massive darkspawn invasion/blight.

Loghain had control of the military, it's not uncommon for a military leader to be able to take control even over a powerful ruler, on top of her husband dying. The King dying and the darskpawn invading created chaos and Loghain took what control he could. Despite her being the actual ruler for the last five years Cailan was in fact the King, him dying does in fact create issues and Loghain brandishing his military power enhances this. She also obviously has a soft spot for her father, I'm sure many of us can sympathize with that.

He also identifies how well respected and effective a ruler she has been and how the Banns and such know this. So she is identified as a strong candidate since she has been ruling successfully.

She "ruled" a country during peacetime with a King who's was widly viewed in a positive light and gave her legitimacy while her daddy did all the work keep things safe, she'd have to suck pretty bad to mess it up.

Lol, agian your opinion. I'll yet again rely on the codex entry rather than your claims. Make them all you want, fair enough, but I prefer to rely on what the game gives me.

[Reaverwind]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 Perhaps you're wishing for an option to put Howe in charge?

I have a vision: Endless discussions on the forums about how Howe is misunderstood and only did what he thought was the right thing ... for himself, of course - but honestly can you blame him? He's really frustrated.

He'd be less frustrated if he changed his attitude. Can't blame women for not wanting to tango with him even if he were the last male in Thedas.

[Realmzmaster]

One poster stated that their was only one logical choice, because being an effective ruler takes more than a big heart. This depends on which origin you start with. If you are a city or dalish elf putting Anora on the throne is not necessarily in your people's best interest. This has zero to do with foresight and everything to do with past treatment.



As far as the game mechanics, Alistair being a bastard is a non-issue. He is the only remaining person from Calenhad's bloodline. The bloodline appears to be very important to Feledens because it was the uniting force of the country.

Anora's nobility ended with the death of her father in disgrace. If the PC allows him to become a Grey Warden he relinguishes all claim to land and title which means it reverts to the state. Anora is no longer nobility. Also during the coronation the PC can ask for a boon. The PC can ask for lands and riches. The king will grant him the teryn of Gwaren. Where does that leave Anora?



The aspect that makes Anora appear power hungry is that she fails to swear fealty to the new king and defies the Landsmeet by continuing her claim to the throne.

Alistair shows wisdom by not executing her, but allowing her to live in case he falls in battle. Ferelden would not be plunge into futher turmoil because it would still have an effective ruler.

[ArcanistLibram]

When it comes down to it, whoever the bannorn swears fealty to gets to be King or Queen. The actual claim is pretty much secondary to whether or not the nobility will do what you tell them to do. However, I do want to look at the claims.

Alistair
- Blood: Alistair's best claim to the throne is that he's Maric's bastard son.
- Military: Presumably, he has access to the soldiers of Arl Eamon and his allies.
- Divine Right: If he kills Loghain in the duel.

Anora
- Marriage: The details of Ferelden's inheritance laws aside, this is what her major claim is.
- Respect: Her secondary claim. She has a lot of pull with the bannorn and the lords know that she's competent.
- Title: As a teyrn's daughter, she is, technically, a member of the upper nobility and could be next in line for the throne if the Theirins die out.

Cousland PC
- Military: The PC has an army to deal with the Blight.
- Title: Like Anora, s/he would be in line for the throne if anything happened to the Theirins.
- Respect: If you play it right, you can have several banns indebted to you and both Eamon and Anora will openly support you.
- Divine Right: If he kills Loghain in the duel.

Loghain
- Military: The bulk of Denerim's military force, including all the military support Anora might have, is under his control. Killing Howe, all of his guards, all of the guards in Fort Drakon and Ser Cauthrien essentially cripples his immediate military support.
- Respect: He was a well-respected hero before he started pissing people off.
- Title: As teyrn and King Maric's right-hand man, he would likely be his most likely successor if anything happened to the Theirin bloodline.
- Divine Right: If he wins the duel in the Landsmeet.

Going into Denerim after the army is gathered, the best claim is Amora's. She's already there, she can do the job, people like her well enough and she has military support from her father. She just doesn't trust her father and doesn't want to depend on him for support. A Cousland PC with his/her own army presents her with an opportunity.

She gets herself captured by Howe. This forces the PC to kill Howe and all his forces, weakening Loghain's support in the process. If things go wrong, she can just frame the PC. After that, she's in a plausible position to propose an alliance to the PC. She'll offer support for the PC in exchange for the PC's backing when the Landsmeet decides who to put on the throne after Loghain is dealt with. With the slavery documents, Loghain's loses both his military power and the respect of the bannorn. Loghain's last claim is his title, but it won't hold up against a Cousland, so he has to resort to trial by combat to invoke Divine Right.

After Loghain is defeated, the Landsmeet is left with two options:
1- Anora, who's claim is that she's already there.
2- Alistair, who's claim is that he crawled out of his mother's womb 9 months after Maric knocked her up. He may or may not have the trial by combat backing him as well.

The interesting part here is that the PC essentially has all of the power. Anora gives him/her her support and Alistair openly acknowledges the PC as his leader. Anora is just betting that the PC will recognize that Alistair isn't kingly material.

So yeah, Anora wants the throne, but damn if she isn't willing to work for it. Too many characters just wait for the plot to just hand them everything they need to succeed (See: Harry Potter). Anora systematically destroyed her father's support and propped up the PC while keeping her options open to screw the PC over if things didn't go her way, all for the 1% chance that it would get her on the throne.

I respect that. I respect that a lot.

[maxernst]

Realmzmaster wrote...
As far as the game mechanics, Alistair being a bastard is a non-issue. He is the only remaining person from Calenhad's bloodline. The bloodline appears to be very important to Feledens because it was the uniting force of the country.
Anora's nobility ended with the death of her father in disgrace. If the PC allows him to become a Grey Warden he relinguishes all claim to land and title which means it reverts to the state. Anora is no longer nobility. Also during the coronation the PC can ask for a boon. The PC can ask for lands and riches. The king will grant him the teryn of Gwaren. Where does that leave Anora?

The aspect that makes Anora appear power hungry is that she fails to swear fealty to the new king and defies the Landsmeet by continuing her claim to the throne.
Alistair shows wisdom by not executing her, but allowing her to live in case he falls in battle. Ferelden would not be plunge into futher turmoil because it would still have an effective ruler.

As far as the game mechanics, Anora's claim to the throne is not in question either.  Nobody screams in anguish at Landsmeet when Alistair renounces his claim.  Eammon is disappointed, but there's no sign that it divides the country.  The bloodline is very important to Eammon, but if it were SO important to everybody else, the Landsmeet would address him as King when he walked in the door.  Even Eammon knows Alistair can only be King IF the Landsmeet choose to recognize him as a legitimate heir.  I don't recall him addressing Alistair as Your Highness.  I guarantee you that when Maric died, Callen was immediately addressed that way and referred to as King, even before his coronation. 

If Anora's nobility ends with Loghain becoming a Grey Warden (which it doesn't--she's still the widow of the former King), then neither the PC nor Alistair are noble.  In fact, as a bastard, Alistair has never been a noble. 

I don't think Alistair shows wisdom at all there.  If he trusts her enough to lead the country in the event of his death, he should recognize her as Teyrna of Gwaren.  Personally I'd advise him to "encourage" her to go home to her holdings, but further antagonizing her is a bad idea if you want her as a .  Keeping her imprisoned but recognizing her as a potential heir practically invites an "accident".   Anora's choice to force Alistair to renounce his claim seems a heck of a lot wiser to me. 

[Helios969]

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
One can learn the latter, but I don't see how anyone can be forced to want to rule.  It seems to me that if one is lacking desire, this is almost certain to breed apathy.  It's hard to imagine how an apathetic ruler can be effective.

So the most grasping and power-hungry makes the best ruler?

Yep.

A fine appreciation for tyranny, have you?  This may work in a country full of serfs, but a country full of proud nobles needs an Arthur, not a czar.

I was a history major, too.

P.S. And if you mean to suggest that what Ferelden needs is a Machiavellan ruler, that is obviously not Anora, either.  Ms. "my father is doing what is best" hasn't exactly shown well for herself as her country descends into civil war.  Perhaps you're wishing for an option to put Howe in charge?

A childish response begets a childish response.

I changed my major from History to the hard sciences when I realized too many people operated on weak supposition.  It's remarkable how many people are willing to argue 1+1=3.
I also realized History fixes you to basically two career paths: writing history books () and teaching (*shotgun blast to the temple*)

[Vicious]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

When it comes down to it, whoever the bannorn swears fealty to gets to be King or Queen. The actual claim is pretty much secondary to whether or not the nobility will do what you tell them to do. However, I do want to look at the claims.

Alistair
- Blood: Alistair's best claim to the throne is that he's Maric's bastard son.
- Military: Presumably, he has access to the soldiers of Arl Eamon and his allies.
- Divine Right: If he kills Loghain in the duel.

Anora
- Marriage: The details of Ferelden's inheritance laws aside, this is what her major claim is.
- Respect: Her secondary claim. She has a lot of pull with the bannorn and the lords know that she's competent.
- Title: As a teyrn's daughter, she is, technically, a member of the upper nobility and could be next in line for the throne if the Theirins die out.

Cousland PC
- Military: The PC has an army to deal with the Blight.
- Title: Like Anora, s/he would be in line for the throne if anything happened to the Theirins.
- Respect: If you play it right, you can have several banns indebted to you and both Eamon and Anora will openly support you.
- Divine Right: If he kills Loghain in the duel.

Loghain
- Military: The bulk of Denerim's military force, including all the military support Anora might have, is under his control. Killing Howe, all of his guards, all of the guards in Fort Drakon and Ser Cauthrien essentially cripples his immediate military support.
- Respect: He was a well-respected hero before he started pissing people off.
- Title: As teyrn and King Maric's right-hand man, he would likely be his most likely successor if anything happened to the Theirin bloodline.
- Divine Right: If he wins the duel in the Landsmeet.

Going into Denerim after the army is gathered, the best claim is Amora's. She's already there, she can do the job, people like her well enough and she has military support from her father. She just doesn't trust her father and doesn't want to depend on him for support. A Cousland PC with his/her own army presents her with an opportunity.

She gets herself captured by Howe. This forces the PC to kill Howe and all his forces, weakening Loghain's support in the process. If things go wrong, she can just frame the PC. After that, she's in a plausible position to propose an alliance to the PC. She'll offer support for the PC in exchange for the PC's backing when the Landsmeet decides who to put on the throne after Loghain is dealt with. With the slavery documents, Loghain's loses both his military power and the respect of the bannorn. Loghain's last claim is his title, but it won't hold up against a Cousland, so he has to resort to trial by combat to invoke Divine Right.

After Loghain is defeated, the Landsmeet is left with two options:
1- Anora, who's claim is that she's already there.
2- Alistair, who's claim is that he crawled out of his mother's womb 9 months after Maric knocked her up. He may or may not have the trial by combat backing him as well.

The interesting part here is that the PC essentially has all of the power. Anora gives him/her her support and Alistair openly acknowledges the PC as his leader. Anora is just betting that the PC will recognize that Alistair isn't kingly material.

So yeah, Anora wants the throne, but damn if she isn't willing to work for it. Too many characters just wait for the plot to just hand them everything they need to succeed (See: Harry Potter). Anora systematically destroyed her father's support and propped up the PC while keeping her options open to screw the PC over if things didn't go her way, all for the 1% chance that it would get her on the throne.

I respect that. I respect that a lot.

WELL SAID

[Addai]

Alandros wrote...


1) She ruled despite her husband having the "pedigree." It is made apparent she kept the Banns and other rulers in check while being respected. Apparently the majority of the people that mattered viewed her as being just fine despite not having an impecible pedigree. You can argue this all you want but the game states otherwise so fight it's codex entry and what people in the game say and not me.

Even though Anora gets nowhere near the throne in my games unless a hardened Alistair is there to rein her in, I agree with you here.  Noble and common alike grumble about Eamon's actions.  Examples:

Bann Alfstanna can be overheard saying "Does Eamon mean to convince us that Anora is unfit to rule?"

Gossip says things like "this bastard of Maric's from Redcliffe... are we supposed to be impressed?" and (same guy) "why is Arl Eamon trying to complicate things?"

Bann Ceorlic says "the line should pass to the Mac Tirs," but given events surrounding his father from The Calling, he doesn't really count.

Hence why my HNF realizes Alistair's bid is not strong enough to win without her.

2) You state she is weak, the codex entry states she isn't and others in the game support that. Again I'll believe them over you. The King died and yes she is only Queen because she married the King, that's an obvious. No matter how strong of a Queen she is civil war would ensue when people are trying to take power.

Here I have to disagree.  A truly strong ruler would not have allowed Loghain to undercut her reign, beloved father or no.  That is the argument for Anora's weakness post-Ostagar.

A valid opinion but an opinion, I simply disagree. She's known to rule for five years to me that expresses a level of comfort. A new and unknown King taking the throne on the other hand seems very awkward and it also very much looks like a power play to Eamon which would put the other nobles on edge, while Anora has been ruling as Queen and people know she can do it.

This discussion is largely moot as neither Alistair nor Anora would have a secure rule without a military victory in the Blight, and after said military victory, whichever one is put forward as the first candidate is assured of their throne.  Furthermore, both Anora and Alistair will, under varying circumstances, put that military victory in jeopardy.  The discussion really centers around who has the greater right to the throne and who is more qualified.

Again opinion and you can have that opinion... I completely and utterly disagree. Everything in the game suggests she has been a good ruler for the last five years and the epilogue slides suggest she continues on being a good ruler.

Not everything.  Just ask my elven characters, who see in Alistair an opportunity for a new day, something which is in fact borne out in the epilogue.  Hence also why even though Alistair is a Theirin, he is not a "traditional" choice.  In many ways Anora is the voice of the status quo.  It depends on who you are whether you think the status quo is good, especially since Anora's five years of reign include the post-Ostagar chaos for which her father is largely responsible.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 février 2010 - 06:51 .

[Alandros]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

When it comes down to it, whoever the bannorn swears fealty to gets to be King or Queen. The actual claim is pretty much secondary to whether or not the nobility will do what you tell them to do. However, I do want to look at the claims.

Alistair
- Blood: Alistair's best claim to the throne is that he's Maric's bastard son.
- Military: Presumably, he has access to the soldiers of Arl Eamon and his allies.
- Divine Right: If he kills Loghain in the duel.

Anora
- Marriage: The details of Ferelden's inheritance laws aside, this is what her major claim is.
- Respect: Her secondary claim. She has a lot of pull with the bannorn and the lords know that she's competent.
- Title: As a teyrn's daughter, she is, technically, a member of the upper nobility and could be next in line for the throne if the Theirins die out.

Cousland PC
- Military: The PC has an army to deal with the Blight.
- Title: Like Anora, s/he would be in line for the throne if anything happened to the Theirins.
- Respect: If you play it right, you can have several banns indebted to you and both Eamon and Anora will openly support you.
- Divine Right: If he kills Loghain in the duel.

Loghain
- Military: The bulk of Denerim's military force, including all the military support Anora might have, is under his control. Killing Howe, all of his guards, all of the guards in Fort Drakon and Ser Cauthrien essentially cripples his immediate military support.
- Respect: He was a well-respected hero before he started pissing people off.
- Title: As teyrn and King Maric's right-hand man, he would likely be his most likely successor if anything happened to the Theirin bloodline.
- Divine Right: If he wins the duel in the Landsmeet.

Going into Denerim after the army is gathered, the best claim is Amora's. She's already there, she can do the job, people like her well enough and she has military support from her father. She just doesn't trust her father and doesn't want to depend on him for support. A Cousland PC with his/her own army presents her with an opportunity.

She gets herself captured by Howe. This forces the PC to kill Howe and all his forces, weakening Loghain's support in the process. If things go wrong, she can just frame the PC. After that, she's in a plausible position to propose an alliance to the PC. She'll offer support for the PC in exchange for the PC's backing when the Landsmeet decides who to put on the throne after Loghain is dealt with. With the slavery documents, Loghain's loses both his military power and the respect of the bannorn. Loghain's last claim is his title, but it won't hold up against a Cousland, so he has to resort to trial by combat to invoke Divine Right.

After Loghain is defeated, the Landsmeet is left with two options:
1- Anora, who's claim is that she's already there.
2- Alistair, who's claim is that he crawled out of his mother's womb 9 months after Maric knocked her up. He may or may not have the trial by combat backing him as well.

The interesting part here is that the PC essentially has all of the power. Anora gives him/her her support and Alistair openly acknowledges the PC as his leader. Anora is just betting that the PC will recognize that Alistair isn't kingly material.

So yeah, Anora wants the throne, but damn if she isn't willing to work for it. Too many characters just wait for the plot to just hand them everything they need to succeed (See: Harry Potter). Anora systematically destroyed her father's support and propped up the PC while keeping her options open to screw the PC over if things didn't go her way, all for the 1% chance that it would get her on the throne.

I respect that. I respect that a lot.

Agreed and well said.

[Alandros]

Addai67 wrote...

2) You state she is weak, the codex entry states she isn't and others in the game support that. Again I'll believe them over you. The King died and yes she is only Queen because she married the King, that's an obvious. No matter how strong of a Queen she is civil war would ensue when people are trying to take power.

Here I have to disagree.  A truly strong ruler would not have allowed Loghain to undercut her reign, beloved father or no.  That is the argument for Anora's weakness post-Ostagar.

A fair statement, though for me I see this in it's very specific context.  She is weak in regards to her father.  She seems strong in regards to everyone else, keep in mind even though she is weak to her father she manipulates the PC to kill Howe and get her out and implicates that her father would have killed her, which is identified as being a bit of an exageration later.  So though she doesn't show enough back-bone to her father early on she does indeed come around a bit.  Either way Loghain being dead or being a powerless Warden solves this problem to me, no other father will come out and overpower her.  Everyone has weaknesses and flaws (Alistair definitely has his failing, such as not representing much leadership and an avoidance of it even) and they are fair but to me this is a fairly minor one in context to the future, but we all have our opinions.

A valid opinion but an opinion, I simply disagree. She's known to rule for five years to me that expresses a level of comfort. A new and unknown King taking the throne on the other hand seems very awkward and it also very much looks like a power play to Eamon which would put the other nobles on edge, while Anora has been ruling as Queen and people know she can do it.

This discussion is largely moot as neither Alistair nor Anora would have a secure rule without a military victory in the Blight, and after said military victory, whichever one is put forward as the first candidate is assured of their throne.  Furthermore, both Anora and Alistair will, under varying circumstances, put that military victory in jeopardy.  The discussion really centers around who has the greater right to the throne and who is more qualified.

Agreed and that is where the opinions vary widely.  

Again opinion and you can have that opinion... I completely and utterly disagree. Everything in the game suggests she has been a good ruler for the last five years and the epilogue slides suggest she continues on being a good ruler.

Not everything.  Just ask my elven characters, who see in Alistair an opportunity for a new day, something which is in fact borne out in the epilogue.  Hence also why even though Alistair is a Theirin, he is not a "traditional" choice.  In many ways Anora is the voice of the status quo.  It depends on who you are whether you think the status quo is good, especially since Anora's five years of reign include the post-Ostagar chaos for which her father is largely responsible.

Very true, the one fault attributed to Anora in the epilogue is the failings she had with the Elves.  It then comes down to opinion whether you think that one failing outweighs the prosperity she ushers in as said in the rest of it or not.  No one's perfect though, I like to think that marrying Anora to someone is the best option.  That Alistair and Anora alone are not ideal (though I feel Anora alone is a better option than Alistair alone).  I see Anora + Alistair being a good balance of governing and compassion.  I also see Anora + Male Noble as a chance for my PC to balance her out as well.

[Addai]

Alandros wrote...
Very true, the one fault attributed to Anora in the epilogue is the failings she had with the Elves.  It then comes down to opinion whether you think that one failing outweighs the prosperity she ushers in as said in the rest of it or not.  No one's perfect though, I like to think that marrying Anora to someone is the best option.  That Alistair and Anora alone are not ideal (though I feel Anora alone is a better option than Alistair alone).  I see Anora + Alistair being a good balance of governing and compassion.  I also see Anora + Male Noble as a chance for my PC to balance her out as well.

Refresh my memory where Anora ruling alone "ushers new prosperity" and hardened Alistair ruling alone doesn't?  I only did the Anora ending on my 1st character so I don't recall the ending slides.

As for making a political match, consider the down side of such matches in recent Fereldan history.  There might not be a succession problem if either Maric or Cailan had been allowed to marry for love.

[nos_astra]

Alandros wrote...
Very true, the one fault attributed to Anora in the epilogue is the failings she had with the Elves.  It then comes down to opinion whether you think that one failing outweighs the prosperity she ushers in as said in the rest of it or not.  No one's perfect though, I like to think that marrying Anora to someone is the best option.  That Alistair and Anora alone are not ideal (though I feel Anora alone is a better option than Alistair alone).  I see Anora + Alistair being a good balance of governing and compassion.  I also see Anora + Male Noble as a chance for my PC to balance her out as well.

Interpreting the epilogue slides may be giving too much credit for something that wasn't even done purposefully but anyway:

The slide about Anora ruling alone shows the exact reason why (hardened) Alistair would say she is not an option.
Whatever prosperity she ushers is to be paid by those she cares about the least - elves.

Alistair wouldn't do that. He'd rather balance things if possible than let a minority pay for the benefits of a majority.

Comparing these two outcomes it's a question whose approach you find more appealing. I'm clearly for the second. Good will have to suffice for all.
Interesting thing though if you marry them they seem to find a way they can have the cake and eat it too.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
As for making a political match, consider the down side of such matches in recent Fereldan history.  There might not be a succession problem if either Maric or Cailan had been allowed to marry for love.

It's a sad thing the only obvious political match that can marry for love will have no heir.

But succession may be very well a problem for all possible outcomes.

Modifié par klarabella, 25 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[Alandros]

Addai67 wrote...

Refresh my memory where Anora ruling alone "ushers new prosperity" and hardened Alistair ruling alone doesn't?  I only did the Anora ending on my 1st character so I don't recall the ending slides.

Well I never said "new" prosperity, the slide suggests Anora rules well alone (minus a possible failing with the Alienage of course).  I don't have a direct quote for it now, the dragon age wiki doesn't seem to have all of the ending slide texts just summaries, in which they summarize Anora ruling alone, I believe the "skilled governor" part is represented in a bit more detail:

Anora weds no one and rules alone; becoming a skilled governor but she never remarries due to the exceptional standard she sets for a potential groom.

I also never said a hardened Alistair wouldn't rule well.  The slides make that apparent.  Alistair non-hardened doesn't seem to rule well according to the slides (even if liked) and even if hardened I stated that my opinion (and I only stated it as my opinion) is that since he has displayed a lack of leadership through the entire game, just because he now takes things seriously doesn't redeem him as a good leader in my view (despite me putting him into power un-hardened in my first playthrough lol, but objectively I don't see him as a better solo leadership choice than Anora, again just my opinion, we all have our own).

As for making a political match, consider the down side of such matches in recent Fereldan history.  There might not be a succession problem if either Maric or Cailan had been allowed to marry for love.

I don't think the succession problem had anything to do with love.  It seems to stem from their being no real heir, no child from Cailan + Anora, which would've cleared things up.  It also seems to stem from Cailan being the weak ruler and Anora being the strong one despite Cailan being the bloodline.  Anora + Alistair I think would've made for a much stronger pairing (hardened or not) than Cailan + Anora.  I also think that Anora + Human Male Noble PC would be a strong coupling (Anora being a skilled governor and the PC being a skilled military leader).

[Malanek]

Addai67 wrote...
Here I have to disagree.  A truly strong ruler would not have allowed Loghain to undercut her reign, beloved father or no.  That is the argument for Anora's weakness post-Ostagar.

She did not sit back and allow Loghain to undercut her reign. After making a decision she took action and gathered support to get rid of Loghain. This works in every single game and also has a good chance of restoring her political strength.

[Alandros]

klarabella wrote...

Alandros wrote...
Very true, the one fault attributed to Anora in the epilogue is the failings she had with the Elves.  It then comes down to opinion whether you think that one failing outweighs the prosperity she ushers in as said in the rest of it or not.  No one's perfect though, I like to think that marrying Anora to someone is the best option.  That Alistair and Anora alone are not ideal (though I feel Anora alone is a better option than Alistair alone).  I see Anora + Alistair being a good balance of governing and compassion.  I also see Anora + Male Noble as a chance for my PC to balance her out as well.

Interpreting the epilogue slides may be giving too much credit for something that wasn't even done purposefully but anyway:

The slide about Anora ruling alone shows the exact reason why (hardened) Alistair would say she is not an option.
Whatever prosperity she ushers is to be paid by those she cares about the least - elves.

Alistair wouldn't do that. He'd rather balance things if possible than let a minority pay for the benefits of a majority.

Comparing these two outcomes it's a question whose approach you find more appealing. I'm clearly for the second. Good will have to suffice for all.
Interesting thing though if you marry them they seem to find a way they can have the cake and eat it too.

Right, I stated it purely as my opinion.  I only referenced the slides to mention Anora obvious isn't a complete failure and is mentioned as a skilled governor (I don't know why people suggest that isn't purposeful, she's been a skilled governor for 5 years).  Compassion is definitely a weakness for her, she is very cold.  My "opinion" (as I've stated it's purely opinion here, none of us know for sure) is Anora would be a better ruler overall than Alistair.  Alistair's non-hardened avoidance of ruling would suggest he wouldn't actually be ruling, he could be just fine as a Hero along-side the PC and influence things in that way rather than as King.  A hardened Alistair on the other hand is a strong competitor for Anora, though for me Alistairs lack of leadership throughout the game makes it a hard sell.  As I said I think Anora + Alistair is a stronger opition solo, just like I believe Anora + PC is a stronger option than Solo Anora or Alistair as well.

[nos_astra]

Malanek999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Here I have to disagree.  A truly strong ruler would not have allowed Loghain to undercut her reign, beloved father or no.  That is the argument for Anora's weakness post-Ostagar.

She did not sit back and allow Loghain to undercut her reign. After making a decision she took action and gathered support to get rid of Loghain. This works in every single game and also has a good chance of restoring her political strength.

Yes, only about one year after Ostagar. She had a hard time making her mind up then.

[Malanek]

klarabella wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Here I have to disagree.  A truly strong ruler would not have allowed Loghain to undercut her reign, beloved father or no.  That is the argument for Anora's weakness post-Ostagar.

She did not sit back and allow Loghain to undercut her reign. After making a decision she took action and gathered support to get rid of Loghain. This works in every single game and also has a good chance of restoring her political strength.

Yes, only about one year after Ostagar. She had a hard time making her mind up then.

Out of interest, if you were her, how and when would you have attempted to do something about your father? If you can't achieve something immediately sometimes you have to wait.

[maxernst]

Malanek999 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Here I have to disagree.  A truly strong ruler would not have allowed Loghain to undercut her reign, beloved father or no.  That is the argument for Anora's weakness post-Ostagar.

She did not sit back and allow Loghain to undercut her reign. After making a decision she took action and gathered support to get rid of Loghain. This works in every single game and also has a good chance of restoring her political strength.

Yes, only about one year after Ostagar. She had a hard time making her mind up then.

Out of interest, if you were her, how and when would you have attempted to do something about your father? If you can't achieve something immediately sometimes you have to wait.

The reality is that Loghain staged a coup, made himself King.  The whole regent business is just a clumsy smokescreen.  She's not a child, nor are women forbidden from ruling in Ferelden, so there's no reason for a regent. 

Loghain controls the army.  As long as this is so, and Anora doesn't have the support of someone else with an army, he's in power.  It's not going to be easy to sway people like Ser Cauthrien to her side and nobody else has an army in Denerim.

[Alandros]

Keep in mind it would've taken quite a deal of time for Anora to come to the conclusion her father was in fact doing what he was doing. Remember Loghain didn't come back and openly detail everything he had planned and/or done, he came back with a semi-plausible story. It takes time to get the truth out of someone in that, that he Cailan to die. Also keep in mind Loghain was a respected war hero general and she was simply trusting his lead in a military situation. As time progressed she might have realized the political implications and that he wasn't going to stand down and was in fact holding onto power.



I do believe Loghain's dialogue where he said he never intended to be King, he didn't even consider that as a feasible possibility it seems. I think he simply thought he should take power in this military situation to fight off the Blight and then he would step down (not realizing that solving this issue is more complex and that this alone caused a civil war).

[mousestalker]

One point to be made is that if you think Anora is as competent as she thinks she is, her letting her father make a power grab makes sense only if she truly loved Cailan.



Grief can cripple even the toughest person. If she were really in mourning, then her turning to her father makes perfect sense.



On the other hand if she didn't love Cailan, then I'd have to conclude that she is a bit weaker than she claims.

[Thor Rand Al]

Anora doesn't lie to you at all?  She comes right out lies to you when you first encounter her, if you don't go by her plans n keep her on the throne. 

PC: This sounds like a trap.

Erlina: Please, Warden, I beg you: Do not leave my queen here.

Anora: Free me, and I promise you my aid in the Landsmeet.


That's lie #1 out of her mouth.
Lie #2 is when your walking out of Howe's after rescuing the Queen, she betrays you there by saying you kidnapped her.
Lie #3 is at the Landsmeet itself n if you tell Anora when your having your conversation with her after she gets out of Howes that your gonna support Alistair she comes into the Landsmeet and decry's the Warden's are slanderers and regicides.  So much for her promise when you first talk to her at Howe's.  That's a rightout lie, doesn't matter who's on the throne, she says if you free her she will support you in the landsmeet.



Edited for clarity:

Elfseeker wrote...
Secondly, I suspect many of you ignore the 'request/instruction' to go talk to her in her room after rescue. HIGHLY recommended. There, as everywhere else, she speaks plainly and straightforwardly. No lies, No backstabbing, no betrayals. Every time it appears as if she undercuts you, -you- have done it to -her-. Either by a wrong word or action, or by not following the railroad tracks(talk to her after rescue). Listen to what she tells you(pre-rescue as well), and take a moment to consider it. Then realize that the final battle at Howe's is by all accounts -supposed- to be unwinnable. You either fight and she gets away in the chaos, or the gang takes you away, and she slips away -outfitted as a guard-. Just as we don't play through sleeping and 'bush-visits', that we recognize her, don't mean the chars in the game does.

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 25 février 2010 - 09:12 .

[maxernst]

*shrug* My PC told more lies than that on the way out of Fort Drakon alone. Is it your contention that good rulers always tell the truth? I must disagree.

[Alandros]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Anora doesn't lie to you at all?  She comes right out lies to you when you first encounter her, if you don't go by her plans n keep her on the throne. 

PC: This sounds like a trap.
Erlina: Please, Warden, I beg you: Do not leave my queen here.
Anora: Free me, and I promise you my aid in the Landsmeet.


That's lie #1 out of her mouth.
Lie #2 is when your walking out of Howe's after rescuing the Queen, she betrays you there by saying you kidnapped her.
Lie #3 is at the Landsmeet itself n if you tell Anora when your having your conversation with her after she gets out of Howes that your gonna support Alistair she comes into the Landsmeet and decry's the Warden's are slanderers and regicides.  So much for her promise when you first talk to her at Howe's.  That's a rightout lie, doesn't matter who's on the throne, she says if you free her she will support you in the landsmeet.

Maybe I'm missing something, but since you didn't reference who you were responding to, who said Anora doesn't lie to you?

[nos_astra]

And she does so even though she by then had plenty of time to realize that there is a damn Blight rolling over Ferelden and that maybe toying with the lives of the last two Grey Wardens in Ferelden for could be possibly a stupid idea? She has still no clue what the wardens did over the past year and why? A capable ruler then, yes?



About grief: Anora doesn't get a grip on herself for a whole year?