515 réponses à ce sujet

[Alandros]

klarabella wrote...

And she does so even though she by then had plenty of time to realize that there is a damn Blight rolling over Ferelden and that maybe toying with the lives of the last two Grey Wardens in Ferelden for could be possibly a stupid idea? She has still no clue what the wardens did over the past year and why? A capable ruler then, yes?

About grief: Anora doesn't get a grip on herself for a whole year?

She was locked into her room by Howe's mage.  I'm assuming by that end of the year she's already gotten a grip and realized her father's plans which is probably why she's already completely locked away at that point.  Obviously she's at a very big disadvantage and needs external help to get out of the situation, which coincidentally is what happens.

[Thor Rand Al]

Alandros wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

Anora doesn't lie to you at all?  She comes right out lies to you when you first encounter her, if you don't go by her plans n keep her on the throne. 

PC: This sounds like a trap.
Erlina: Please, Warden, I beg you: Do not leave my queen here.
Anora: Free me, and I promise you my aid in the Landsmeet.


That's lie #1 out of her mouth.
Lie #2 is when your walking out of Howe's after rescuing the Queen, she betrays you there by saying you kidnapped her.
Lie #3 is at the Landsmeet itself n if you tell Anora when your having your conversation with her after she gets out of Howes that your gonna support Alistair she comes into the Landsmeet and decry's the Warden's are slanderers and regicides.  So much for her promise when you first talk to her at Howe's.  That's a rightout lie, doesn't matter who's on the throne, she says if you free her she will support you in the landsmeet.

Maybe I'm missing something, but since you didn't reference who you were responding to, who said Anora doesn't lie to you?

I'm sorry I didn't make this more clear

Elfseeker wrote...
Secondly, I suspect many of you ignore the 'request/instruction' to go talk to her in her room after rescue. HIGHLY recommended. There, as everywhere else, she speaks plainly and straightforwardly. No lies, No backstabbing, no betrayals. Every time it appears as if she undercuts you, -you- have done it to -her-. Either by a wrong word or action, or by not following the railroad tracks(talk to her after rescue). Listen to what she tells you(pre-rescue as well), and take a moment to consider it. Then realize that the final battle at Howe's is by all accounts -supposed- to be unwinnable. You either fight and she gets away in the chaos, or the gang takes you away, and she slips away -outfitted as a guard-. Just as we don't play through sleeping and 'bush-visits', that we recognize her, don't mean the chars in the game does.

[Addai]

Malanek999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Here I have to disagree.  A truly strong ruler would not have allowed Loghain to undercut her reign, beloved father or no.  That is the argument for Anora's weakness post-Ostagar.

She did not sit back and allow Loghain to undercut her reign. After making a decision she took action and gathered support to get rid of Loghain. This works in every single game and also has a good chance of restoring her political strength.

If she was queen by right and queen regnant, then she did not need a regent at all.  Tell daddy when he shows up after Ostagar "thank you but no thank you, go back to your military barracks and await my marching orders"- or perhaps even more appropriate, "you are relieved of command after this disastrous defeat," and take the nobles in hand herself.  What about the Anora you see in the Teagan-Loghain confrontation suggests a strong ruler?

[spottyblanket]

As a character I do find her impressive and cunning in her tatics and she is smart, however I would like her a LOT more if she wasn't so selfish and power hungry and clearly out for her own wants and needs rather than that of the Kingdom. I don't find many of the female characters sympathic in the game, even the ones who SHOULD be--like Isode. There has only been one intelligant, kind and impressive female character in the game as far as I'm concerned.

[Helios969]

spottyblanket wrote...

As a character I do find her impressive and cunning in her tatics and she is smart, however I would like her a LOT more if she wasn't so selfish and power hungry and clearly out for her own wants and needs rather than that of the Kingdom. I don't find many of the female characters sympathic in the game, even the ones who SHOULD be--like Isode. There has only been one intelligant, kind and impressive female character in the game as far as I'm concerned.

Isolde was meant to be sympathetic?  I must have totally missed that.  I read her as one of the most selfish NPC's in the game, right up there with Zathrian.

[CalJones]

Addai67 wrote...
If she was queen by right and queen regnant, then she did not need a regent at all.  Tell daddy when he shows up after Ostagar "thank you but no thank you, go back to your military barracks and await my marching orders"- or perhaps even more appropriate, "you are relieved of command after this disastrous defeat," and take the nobles in hand herself.  What about the Anora you see in the Teagan-Loghain confrontation suggests a strong ruler?

When you talk to her at Arl Eamon's estate she intimates that she still trusted him at that point - she only realised that he had gone over the edge later. This is also apparent from the later cut scene where she asks Loghain if he killed Cailan. Don't forget that she does love Cailan and after Ostagar she will be vulnerable from shock and grief.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

When you talk to her at Arl Eamon's estate she intimates that she still trusted him at that point - she only realised that he had gone over the edge later. This is also apparent from the later cut scene where she asks Loghain if he killed Cailan. Don't forget that she does love Cailan and after Ostagar she will be vulnerable from shock and grief.

All of which is understandable, but a strong leader is just that.  I could also offer any number of reasons why Alistair has the strengths and weaknesses he has, but I suspect I would be told those are just excuses and are irrelevant.  Furthermore, Anora's "epiphany" about her father lasts only so long as she believes Loghain's enemies are better for her chances of retaining power than he is.  If you don't promise to support her, she suddenly re-thinks that.  She also allows this weakness of hers to prevent her from re-marrying.  In this she is no different than an unhardened Alistair who never gets over his insecurities.

Personally I think those who are characterizing Anora as a strong leader are overstating the matter.  What is said of her in the game is that she is a) capable, and popular.  Neither of those things mean that she is a strong leader.  Edit to add:  The only one who calls Anora a strong queen is herself.  Just as you can't, IMO, take Alistair's words about himself at face value, neither can you take Anora's.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 février 2010 - 10:11 .

[Realmzmaster]

A strong ruler deals with the grief and shock. The strong ruler has a country to run. There is no such thing as a timeout. The strong leader is not afforded that luxury.



The other problem Anora has is she is not a people person which is why Loghain is able to declare himself regent. Loghain has most of the common people's support because he is the Hero of River Dane. He drove out Orlais.

Loghain is not a strong ruler. He may be a great military leader (debatable), but in regards to politics he relies on Howe. Howe is disliked by about everyone.

Loghain sees his become regent as neccessary because poor Anora has never dealt with a war. Anora has her own insecurity in this regard (my opinion).



Anora should have seen that her father becoming regent was a train wreck waiting to happen. She had dealings with the various nobles and should have been able to guage their reaction.

Loghain should have keep to being military leader and helped Anora in the background.

Cailan had enough sense to let Anora rule under his auspice.



Also note than Loghain states that the army assembled would be under his banner and not the queen's. If she did not pick up on this fact I have problems with her leadership. Also it is evident she did not have much contact with her father's army if they follow Loghain instead of her. She should have stood up to her father and put him in his place in front of all the nobles.



Cailan appeared to have the admiration of his troops. Even Ser Cauthrien is surprised when Loghain quits the field, but shows her loyalty to Loghain not the king. Ser Cauthrien completely neglects her duty. Cailan obviously believed his father-in-law would be there to support him and not abandon him. Unfortunately that was his doom. Loghain left Cailan and his troops to be slaughtered. (my opinion).

[Malanek]

Addai67 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Here I have to disagree.  A truly strong ruler would not have allowed Loghain to undercut her reign, beloved father or no.  That is the argument for Anora's weakness post-Ostagar.

She did not sit back and allow Loghain to undercut her reign. After making a decision she took action and gathered support to get rid of Loghain. This works in every single game and also has a good chance of restoring her political strength.

If she was queen by right and queen regnant, then she did not need a regent at all.  Tell daddy when he shows up after Ostagar "thank you but no thank you, go back to your military barracks and await my marching orders"- or perhaps even more appropriate, "you are relieved of command after this disastrous defeat," and take the nobles in hand herself.  What about the Anora you see in the Teagan-Loghain confrontation suggests a strong ruler?

And what would Loghain have done then?. He had almost all the political power. Strength is not stupidity. She would have got locked up earlier. She was careful, patient and waited until an opportunity presented itself. Yes, she was lucky but not stupid nor weak.

Modifié par Malanek999, 25 février 2010 - 10:45 .

[nos_astra]

Yes, rolling over and playing dead for a year is certainly a smart move and a clear sign for a strong, capable, beloved queen.

[Reaverwind]

Malanek999 wrote...

And what would Loghain have done then?. He had almost all the political power.

Exactly. We now all know Anora was in no danger from him - she could have asserted her authority. The whole "help the queen escape" deal screamed setup from the get-go - but the final nail in that coffin was Cauthrien's unbelievable timing. I'll give Anora this - she did a good job of manipulating the warden.

[ejoslin]

Reaverwind wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

And what would Loghain have done then?. He had almost all the political power.

Exactly. We now all know Anora was in no danger from him - she could have asserted her authority. The whole "help the queen escape" deal screamed setup from the get-go - but the final nail in that coffin was Cauthrien's unbelievable timing. I'll give Anora this - she did a good job of manipulating the warden.

So do you think that Anora just wanted Howe dead, yet to remain in power?  Then why have Cauthrien there at all?  Why have the warden captured only to get to Eamon's estate and try to help get the warden out?  It's just hard to believe Anora was behind Cauthrien being there because of her actions afterwards.  Erlina, maybe, but what would her motives be?

[Realmzmaster]

I found it odd that I was unable to take Anora back out the way I came in. Why does she not follow me? If you try to go the other way she will not follow. Most people do not try to escape out the front door! It appears she knew all along Ser Cauthrien would appear.



Also notice that Ser Cauthrien does not care about anyone but the wardens. If she was so concerned about the murders everyone would be arrested. Anora simply wanted the wardens put on ice.

Anora would not outright kill the wardens because she did not know if the legends about killing the ArchDemon were true or not.

Her father did not believe it was a Blight. so he had no problem eliminating the wardens. Ser Cauthrien would not have them killed if there is information to be gained.

Do I smell setup?

[Addai]

Malanek999 wrote...
And what would Loghain have done then?. He had almost all the political power.

On what basis do you make this statement?  He had no political power without her, as the Landsmeet makes abundantly clear.

[Malanek]

Addai67 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
And what would Loghain have done then?. He had almost all the political power.

On what basis do you make this statement?  He had no political power without her, as the Landsmeet makes abundantly clear.

A big effen army, his oratory skills and the reputation of being a legend. At Landsmeet some nobels are still supporting him despite the country being ravaged by darkspawn, evidence of slavery, opposition of Eamon, plus your own attempts to coerce nobles. And remember, the conclusion of Ostagar was well before that with none of those factors taking place. I just can't see where you are coming from with that statement.

Modifié par Malanek999, 25 février 2010 - 11:35 .

[Malanek]

Maria Caliban posted this in another thread. They are designer character notes from the ttolset but I think they are also appropriate in this discussion.

ANORA

Description:
Anora is the daughter of Teyrn Loghain -- one of the most respected generals in the nation, and a hero of the old wars -- and the wife of King Cailan, recently killed in battle. In truth, she is her father's daughter. She is shrewdly intelligent and capable and has been more or less running the nation behind the scenes for years as it was. Cailan was an easygoing man who cared little for politics and was more than happy to leave much of the business of governing to his wife. So when he died, Anora was not eager to turn over the regency to her father. She realized that a crisis was at hand, however, and truly believed that her father was doing what was best -- at first.

By the time the player encounters her, Anora has grown suspicious that her father may have let her husband die for his own ends, and she begins enacting a plan that will see her father removed from the regency and her put on the throne as the sole, ruling Queen. She is capable of such intrigue, and like her father she is not above setting morals aside in order to achieve the ends she desires.

Purpose:
She tries to side with the player to discredit her father (Loghain) in the Landsmeet plot. She wishes to remain queen, so the player is left to make some difficult choices regarding her, Alistair, and Arl Eamon.

Speech Patterns:
Anora is capable and quick-witted, which she can use to be charming or to cut someone up verbally -- which she will not hesitate to do, if the situation calls for it. It is to Anora's eternal irritation that, had she been born a man, it would have been much easier for her to achieve power in the world. She is easily bored by those of lesser intelligence and often assumes a somewhat imperious manner. She has become accustomed, after all, to being served -- though this should never go over the top, as she was not born into luxury. Her father is of common birth and thus she has no noble blood, herself, and so she is no stranger to work. Ultimately Anora is a pragmatist and when she speaks she should always strain to make it plainly obvious that what she is saying is the clearest, most intelligent path to take.

Modifié par Malanek999, 25 février 2010 - 11:39 .

[JosieJ]

spottyblanket wrote...

As a character I do find her impressive and cunning in her tatics and she is smart, however I would like her a LOT more if she wasn't so selfish and power hungry and clearly out for her own wants and needs rather than that of the Kingdom.

Practically everyone in Ferelden is out for their own wants/needs rather than the good of the kingdom.  I thought that was a major theme of the game, how even with the darkspawn practically clawing at their heels, the majority of people can't see past their own noses.  Why should Anora be any different in this regard?

[Addai]

Malanek999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
And what would Loghain have done then?. He had almost all the political power.

On what basis do you make this statement?  He had no political power without her, as the Landsmeet makes abundantly clear.

A big effen army, his oratory skills and the reputation of being a legend. At Landsmeet some nobels are still supporting him despite the country being ravaged by darkspawn, evidence of slavery, opposition of Eamon, plus your own attempts to coerce nobles. And remember, the conclusion of Ostagar was well before that with none of those factors taking place. I just can't see where you are coming from with that statement.

And would he have any of that if Anora stood up to him and told him his place was as military leader and not regent?  You're suggesting he could have deposed Anora and still retained his power.

[Malanek]

Addai67 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
And what would Loghain have done then?. He had almost all the political power.

On what basis do you make this statement?  He had no political power without her, as the Landsmeet makes abundantly clear.

A big effen army, his oratory skills and the reputation of being a legend. At Landsmeet some nobels are still supporting him despite the country being ravaged by darkspawn, evidence of slavery, opposition of Eamon, plus your own attempts to coerce nobles. And remember, the conclusion of Ostagar was well before that with none of those factors taking place. I just can't see where you are coming from with that statement.

And would he have any of that if Anora stood up to him and told him his place was as military leader and not regent?  You're suggesting he could have deposed Anora and still retained his power.

Yes, I think he could have fairly easily. The country was in crisis and there was no one else to turn to.

[ArcanistLibram]

Addai67 wrote...

And would he have any of that if Anora stood up to him and told him his place was as military leader and not regent?  You're suggesting he could have deposed Anora and still retained his power.

Loghain would have had little trouble proverbially sending Anora to her room for her own good, making some excuse for her absence and ruling the kingdom. He had an army. Whatever army Anora might have had for her own protection died at Ostagar. Even if she had relieved Loghain of his military position, she would have had no way of actually enforcing her edict.

[Helios969]

ejoslin wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...

And what would Loghain have done then?. He had almost all the political power.

Exactly. We now all know Anora was in no danger from him - she could have asserted her authority. The whole "help the queen escape" deal screamed setup from the get-go - but the final nail in that coffin was Cauthrien's unbelievable timing. I'll give Anora this - she did a good job of manipulating the warden.

So do you think that Anora just wanted Howe dead, yet to remain in power?  Then why have Cauthrien there at all?  Why have the warden captured only to get to Eamon's estate and try to help get the warden out?  It's just hard to believe Anora was behind Cauthrien being there because of her actions afterwards.  Erlina, maybe, but what would her motives be?

Careful ejoslin, the intellectual bullys will gang up on if you fail to agree that Anora is an evil and incompetant ruler with no redeemable qualities.  This argument has deteriorated beyond any rational middle ground.

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...
He who wishes to be obeyed must know how to command and it is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.  Niccolo Machiavelli

Go back to your history classes.

Most history students/professors in the modern day see The Prince as a piece of satire, comedy shared amongst his friends.  They suggest this is why he never published it himself and it was only published after his death.  It is far and away different from the views on leadership he espoused when he was alive.

I suggest reading Discori, for instance.

Indeed, IF The Prince was actually meant as an instruction manual for maintaining power one need only look at the fact that the methods contained therein would only work--or at least work best--were they NEVER made publically available.  Antonio Gramsci even goes so far as to suggest that The Prince was written for the public and not for the princes.  An idea supported by the fact that it was written in Italian and not Latin--the language of the ruling elite.  It was made accessible.

Further, Machievelli was assumed to be a realist, while the characters and actions in The Prince are very much not so.  He was also a republican and believed in elected representatives all through life.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 12:21 .

[ejoslin]

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

So do you think that Anora just wanted Howe dead, yet to remain in power?  Then why have Cauthrien there at all?  Why have the warden captured only to get to Eamon's estate and try to help get the warden out?  It's just hard to believe Anora was behind Cauthrien being there because of her actions afterwards.  Erlina, maybe, but what would her motives be?

Careful ejoslin, the intellectual bullys will gang up on if you fail to agree that Anora is an evil and incompetant ruler with no redeemable qualities.  This argument has deteriorated beyond any rational middle ground.

What kind of ruler I think Anora would make is actually irrelevant (I'm not a fan of hers), but the whole "she set the warden up" just doesn't make sense given her actions afterwards.  I could understand her wanting Howe dead, and that may have been the reason she had the warden rescue her, but then why have her (or them) arrested only to escape to Eamon and tell him where she was taken if she were behind Cauthrien being there?

Erlina was from Orlais -- is it possible she was actually working for someone other than Anora?  Thatseems likely to me but there's nothing in the game that actually indicates that (other than quite a lot is made of Orlisian spies).

[krylo]

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

So do you think that Anora just wanted Howe dead, yet to remain in power?  Then why have Cauthrien there at all?  Why have the warden captured only to get to Eamon's estate and try to help get the warden out?  It's just hard to believe Anora was behind Cauthrien being there because of her actions afterwards.  Erlina, maybe, but what would her motives be?

Careful ejoslin, the intellectual bullys will gang up on if you fail to agree that Anora is an evil and incompetant ruler with no redeemable qualities.  This argument has deteriorated beyond any rational middle ground.

What kind of ruler I think Anora would make is actually irrelevant (I'm not a fan of hers), but the whole "she set the warden up" just doesn't make sense given her actions afterwards.  I could understand her wanting Howe dead, and that may have been the reason she had the warden rescue her, but then why have her (or them) arrested only to escape to Eamon and tell him where she was taken if she were behind Cauthrien being there?

Erlina was from Orlais -- is it possible she was actually working for someone other than Anora?  Thatseems likely to me but there's nothing in the game that actually indicates that (other than quite a lot is made of Orlisian spies).

Yeah, I'm not sure the whole "She set us up to be arrested by Cauthrien" thing has much to stand on.

On the one hand it's very very odd that Cauthrien shows up when she does, on the other it doesn't make much sense for her to do so and then run to Eamon.  I'm also not sure how doing so strengthens her position in any way, and carries considerable risk of weakening her position.

[IanPolaris]

Everyone,

Again, some of you need to listen to how a hardened Alistair describes Anorna because he has per pegged to a tee.  She is her father's daughter.  She believes that she and only she can do the right thing for Fereldan and no one should have the temerity to disagree.  That makes her a terrible choice for a ruling queen as the epilog shows (with her and the Cousland husband there is clearly high-level political strife between the par and with her alone, there is clearly civil unrest).  Honestly, Alistair (if hardened) either alone or with a Cousland bride makes a far superior king (and a much more beloved one as well).  Being beloved MATTERS especially in a country as fragile and close to civil war as Fereldan.

Let's also not forget that being a bastard even under English inheritance law doesn't automatically disqualify one from a title although it usually does.  Not only did William the Conquerer claim the English throne by virtue of bastardy, but IIRC the first Tutor King of England (I want to say Henry the VII) also based his claim to the throne by virtue of being a Lancaster Bastard.  If some unimaginable catastrophe were to completely wipe out the English royal line for example (which would also wipe out most of the Noweigan Royal line as well), you can bet that Parliament would search high and low for anyone with a drop of royal blood no matter how distant bastard or no.  That precedence in extremis was set long ago.

By the same token, remember that for all her faults (and they are legion) the reason that Anora is acting like a backstabbing female dog is because her political life (and in her eyes her actual life) is on the line here.  If her father is disgraced and removed from the regency, not only could she lose the throne but she would no longer be considered a noble in any capacity.  Anora's sole claim to nobility is that she is Teryn Logain's daughter, but her status DEPENDS on his unless the landsmeet specifically says otherwise.  Not only that, but her only claim to the throne is that she is Cailan's widow, but that status as Queen Dowager depends on her being of noble blood which disapears once her father is either executed in disgrace or forfeits his lands and title.  Only the Landsmeet can supercede this.

Thus Anora is literally fightering for her political and possibley physical life here.  I have no doubt whatsosever (and my female grey wardens would encourage that either as Chancellor or Queen) that a Hardened Alistair would have Anora executed if he survives the Arch-demon.

-Polaris