515 réponses à ce sujet

[RangerSG]

krylo wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

So do you think that Anora just wanted Howe dead, yet to remain in power?  Then why have Cauthrien there at all?  Why have the warden captured only to get to Eamon's estate and try to help get the warden out?  It's just hard to believe Anora was behind Cauthrien being there because of her actions afterwards.  Erlina, maybe, but what would her motives be?

Careful ejoslin, the intellectual bullys will gang up on if you fail to agree that Anora is an evil and incompetant ruler with no redeemable qualities.  This argument has deteriorated beyond any rational middle ground.

What kind of ruler I think Anora would make is actually irrelevant (I'm not a fan of hers), but the whole "she set the warden up" just doesn't make sense given her actions afterwards.  I could understand her wanting Howe dead, and that may have been the reason she had the warden rescue her, but then why have her (or them) arrested only to escape to Eamon and tell him where she was taken if she were behind Cauthrien being there?

Erlina was from Orlais -- is it possible she was actually working for someone other than Anora?  Thatseems likely to me but there's nothing in the game that actually indicates that (other than quite a lot is made of Orlisian spies).

Yeah, I'm not sure the whole "She set us up to be arrested by Cauthrien" thing has much to stand on.

On the one hand it's very very odd that Cauthrien shows up when she does, on the other it doesn't make much sense for her to do so and then run to Eamon.  I'm also not sure how doing so strengthens her position in any way, and carries considerable risk of weakening her position.

The whole "Anora plot thing" is ludicrous. It assumes a game-designed pathfinding decision is somehow Anora's "plan" to double-cross everyone. Never mind she says "Do not disclose me to anyone!" So when you tell Cauthrien, of course Anora squeals to save her hide. That's what a pragmatist does...stay alive.

Second, even if we take Loghain's dialogue at face value, Loghain has had Howe go "over the top" on him before. The Cousland Massacre was not ordered by Loghain, but Howe did it. Howe is a total opportunist who sees the war as a chance to advance himself through chaos...what better way than to kill Anora and say, "The Wardens and Eamon murdered her, Loghain!" Even if you believe Loghain, do you really believe Howe is incapable of that? So if you want to say "Anora was in no danger," I'm throwing the flag on that.

Third, the Alienage riot being dumped on Anora is absurd. Simply put, the riot should've been kept from happening in the first place by the LOCAL ARL. That is not Anora's duty. Nor is it her duty to upset the entire social order to appease your elven PC. Nor does it disprove her ability as a good ruler if she had to step in when the LOCAL ARL failed to rule his territory and put down a riot.

Finally, the bottom line is the vast majority of Anora-hate comes from people who are upset because their female elf/mage PC had to step aside for the good of Ferelden. Is it a bummer decision? Sure it is. It's why my female mage went full-sacrifice mode and threw herself into the arms Zev for consolation. But the bottom line is, it was a necessary choice. And no one was going to accept a female elf/mage queen any more than they'd accept a male elf/mage king. Cultural reality exists. Hating Anora after is understandable, but not rational.

Modifié par RangerSG, 26 février 2010 - 12:45 .

[Helios969]

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
He who wishes to be obeyed must know how to command and it is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.  Niccolo Machiavelli

Go back to your history classes.

Most history students/professors in the modern day see The Prince as a piece of satire, comedy shared amongst his friends.  They suggest this is why he never published it himself and it was only published after his death.  It is far and away different from the views on leadership he espoused when he was alive.

I suggest reading Discori, for instance.

Indeed, IF The Prince was actually meant as an instruction manual for maintaining power one need only look at the fact that the methods contained therein would only work--or at least work best--were they NEVER made publically available.  Antonio Gramsci even goes so far as to suggest that The Prince was written for the public and not for the princes.  An idea supported by the fact that it was written in Italian and not Latin--the language of the ruling elite.  It was made accessible.

Further, Machievelli was assumed to be a realist, while the characters and actions in The Prince are very much not so.  He was also a republican and believed in elected representatives all through life.

I think many people need to step back and realize that they're playing a fantasy role playing game.  Some seem to have immersed themselves a bit to far.  It's not real, and some of the inconsistencies may have more to do with writing oversight than any real intention(s).  Personally, I'm a moderate, which is why I always go for the Anora-Alistair pairing.  Some just take it all too serious.  I'm my game, my choice works out great.  In yours, I'm sure your choice works out great.  There is no right or wrong.  People that think otherwise need to unplug from the game for a while.  Basically that's all I'm arguing.  And maybe antagonizing some that decide to take people disagreeing with their position personally and blathering on about how much more educated and superior their thought process is.  Talk to me rationally and reasonably with a modicum of respect and you shall receive the same.  Speak like a petulant child and expect to be treated like one.  Pretty easy, huh?  Too bad some just won't get it.

[IanPolaris]

Yeah, I'm not sure the whole "She set us up to be arrested by Cauthrien" thing has much to stand on.

On the one hand it's very very odd that Cauthrien shows up when she does, on the other it doesn't make much sense for her to do so and then run to Eamon.  I'm also not sure how doing so strengthens her position in any way, and carries considerable risk of weakening her position.

I believe (but can not prove absolutely) that Anora did in fact set up the Wardens.  Anora needed to have a fall-back plan just in case her father was deposed AND she wanted to insure that the most dangerous competition (and potential competition) would be removed in one fell swoop.  I think it's a very well played out double-game, and if the Warden (as my Arcane Blood Warrior did) uses brute force and not only kills Howe but also massacres Cauthrien, Anora is very, very upset with you (which bothers me not at all). 

Anyone that thinks that Ser Cauthrien just happened to show up just after Howe died with orders to arrest the Warden isn't thinking this through.  The entire thing screams set-up and Anora is exactly the scheming female dog that would do this.  She sees it as a win-win situation.  The dead giveaway is when Ser Cauthrien states that her orders only cover the wardens (really?  No concern about the Queen, in the hands of dangerous 'lunatic murders', really?)  My only regret is I can't execute Anona along with her daddy.  IMHO she deserves it even more than he does.  At least Logain kept to his principles as warped and twisted as they become.  I don't think Anora would understand a principle if it bit her in the posterior.

-Polaris

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

So do you think that Anora just wanted Howe dead, yet to remain in power?  Then why have Cauthrien there at all?  Why have the warden captured only to get to Eamon's estate and try to help get the warden out?  It's just hard to believe Anora was behind Cauthrien being there because of her actions afterwards.  Erlina, maybe, but what would her motives be?

Careful ejoslin, the intellectual bullys will gang up on if you fail to agree that Anora is an evil and incompetant ruler with no redeemable qualities.  This argument has deteriorated beyond any rational middle ground.

What kind of ruler I think Anora would make is actually irrelevant (I'm not a fan of hers), but the whole "she set the warden up" just doesn't make sense given her actions afterwards.  I could understand her wanting Howe dead, and that may have been the reason she had the warden rescue her, but then why have her (or them) arrested only to escape to Eamon and tell him where she was taken if she were behind Cauthrien being there?

Erlina was from Orlais -- is it possible she was actually working for someone other than Anora?  Thatseems likely to me but there's nothing in the game that actually indicates that (other than quite a lot is made of Orlisian spies).

Knowing that there was so much hate for Anora on the board, I actually did think I was set up when I wound in Fort Drakon.  Then I went to Eammon's and found her there and changed my mind and decided to support her--and if you do that, she's very helpful.  I actually vacillated in the Landsmeet itself and almost "double-crossed" Alistair and made him marry her, but then I asked them both about how they would rule and it was like...I can't justify putting (soft) Alistair on the throne.  I love the guy...hell, I used a mod so I could romance him as an HNM...but I just didn't have much faith in him as a king.

When I first thought about the situation, I also thought that because Anora's status is the only thing that gives a patina of legality to Loghain's seizure of power, that she would have more power over him.  I've reconsidered that position, however.  If Anora were really weak, there would be no need to declare himself regent, he'd simply call her Queen and make her do whatever he wanted.  From a public relations standpoint, it would look much better, and he could always say that she's acting as interim ruler (Queen regent not Queen regnant) while we have a blight to fight,. After that, the Landsmeet can pick a successor to Callen, since he has (inexplicably) died without an heir apparent.  In the meantime, he'd do whatever he wanted, shielded by the appearance of her legitimate regency.

I suspect the reason he didn't do so is that he didn't think she would do everything he wanted her to do.  Could she take a firmer stand against him?  Maybe...but it would be very dangerous.  Legal challenges don't mean much if you don't have an army to back you up and the army is...despite everything...pretty loyal to Loghain to the end.  Loghain seems to view everyone who opposes him as a traitor to Ferelden.  He could easily arrange for her to become "ill" like Eammon.  He might even have Howe assassinate her and try to frame Riordan for it.  It might hurt his credibility, but really by the end I think hardly anybody believes him, they're just loyal to him because he's the hero of Ferelden.  The idea that the Grey Wardens turned traitor is viewed skeptically by a lot of people from the very beginning and I don't think any of the nobles believed that the Couslands were traitors to the King.  Let's be honest--he's in power because he has an army at his back, not because of Anora or anything in Ferelden law.  Imprisoning (or even killing) Anora wouldn't change that unless the army rebells against him.

[IanPolaris]

RangerSG wrote...


The whole "Anora plot thing" is ludicrous. It assumes a game-designed pathfinding decision is somehow Anora's "plan" to double-cross everyone. Never mind she says "Do not disclose me to anyone!" So when you tell Cauthrien, of course Anora squeals to save her hide. That's what a pragmatist does...stay alive.

That is bull.  This point has been raised and settled.  Logain himself (when he has no further reason to lie) confirms that Anora was never in any danger from him or his forces.  I agree that Howe may have been another story, but do you honestly except me to believe that Cauthrien comes in just as the Warden is ready to walk out the front door and just happens to know that Howe is already dead (it couldn't have happened more than a handful of minutes prior) and just call it coincidence.  REALLY?!?

Anona had the motive, methode, and opportunity to pull this double-cross.  What is so difficult to believe that she didn't?

Second, even if we take Loghain's dialogue at face value, Loghain has had Howe go "over the top" on him before. The Cousland Massacre was not ordered by Loghain, but Howe did it. Howe is a total opportunist who sees the war as a chance to advance himself through chaos...what better way than to kill Anora and say, "The Wardens and Eamon murdered her, Loghain!" Even if you believe Loghain, do you really believe Howe is incapable of that? So if you want to say "Anora was in no danger," I'm throwing the flag on that.

Logain's entire claim to the regency depends on Anora not to mention that he clearlyl has a soft spot (which is understandable) for his own daughter.  I think even Howe (who is not a stupid man regardless of how vile he is otherwise) knows that there are some lines with Logain you do not cross.

Third, the Alienage riot being dumped on Anora is absurd. Simply put, the riot should've been kept from happening in the first place by the LOCAL ARL. That is not Anora's duty. Nor is it her duty to upset the entire social order to appease your elven PC. Nor does it disprove her ability as a good ruler if she had to step in when the LOCAL ARL failed to rule his territory and put down a riot.

Nonesense.  That is more BS.  There is no Arl of Denerim by the Landsmeet.  This Arling is a Crown possession which means that as ruling Queen Anora takes direct responsibility for what happened.  Also where there is smoke, there is fire.  Notice that only in the "Anora is ruling queen" endings is there any sign of civil unrest.

That says volumes about how she does as queen.

Finally, the bottom line is the vast majority of Anora-hate comes from people who are upset because their female elf/mage PC had to step aside for the good of Ferelden. Is it a bummer decision? Sure it is. It's why my female mage went full-sacrifice mode and threw herself into the arms Zev for consolation. But the bottom line is, it was a necessary choice. And no one was going to accept a female elf/mage queen any more than they'd accept a male elf/mage king. Cultural reality exists. Hating Anora after is understandable, but not rational.

Nice way to present an ad-hominem attack and paint all the Anora hate with one broad brush.  The fact remains (unless you are done demeaning those that disagree with you), that there are very valid reasons not to like or trust Anora.  Hardened Alistair states those reasons better than almost anyone.

-Polaris

[Addai]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And would he have any of that if Anora stood up to him and told him his place was as military leader and not regent?  You're suggesting he could have deposed Anora and still retained his power.

Loghain would have had little trouble proverbially sending Anora to her room for her own good, making some excuse for her absence and ruling the kingdom. He had an army. Whatever army Anora might have had for her own protection died at Ostagar. Even if she had relieved Loghain of his military position, she would have had no way of actually enforcing her edict.

Loghain even with Anora's support could not rule the country.  Loghain without her could?  Color me skeptical.

[maxernst]

@IanPolaris, do you really believe Howe got his mage to cast that spell imprisoning Anora? Is Howe that much of a fool that he'd risk luring the Grey Warden into his home to kill him himself? I just can't imagine he'd put himself at risk that way. I also find it difficult to believe Ser Cauthrien would be involved in a scheme like this. I would have liked an option to ask Anora how she wound up at Eammon's, but the fact that she "gives you up" does play to your advantage since she's able to tell the others what's happened to you. I've no idea why Ser Cauthrien doesn't imprison the rest of your companions, only Alistair, though.



I wondered about the absurdly fast arrival of Ser Cauthrien as well, but it may just be a plot hole. I suppose it's possible someone might have seen you approaching Howe's estate (you don't put on the disguises until you get there) and well--it's not thard to figure out why the Grey Warden might be paying Howe a visit, at least if he's playing the human noble origin.

[SurelyForth]

Finally, the bottom line is the vast majority of Anora-hate comes from people who are upset because their female elf/mage PC had to step aside for the good of Ferelden. Is it a bummer decision? Sure it is. It's why my female mage went full-sacrifice mode and threw herself into the arms Zev for consolation. But the bottom line is, it was a necessary choice. And no one was going to accept a female elf/mage queen any more than they'd accept a male elf/mage king. Cultural reality exists. Hating Anora after is understandable, but not rational.

The thing is this (and how I loathe the "just jealous" argument when there are several other valid ones, especially when it is applied to women and other women, fictional or not) Anora doesn't have to figure into Alistair's ending at all. The two of them getting married is a decision that is entirely up to the player. If a player is the sort to get all hot because their fictional character's fictional boyfriend can't marry them, chances are good that they're also not going to marry him off either.

I am an unabashed Alistair fangirl, and I do not hate Anora.. It's just that there are legitimate reasons to dislike her (and a few to really like her- I bet she swears like a sailor) and I imagine that she was designed to be divisive/"two-faced". Resorting to the "women be possessive" argument when there are other, better, ones to be made is just...lazy, really.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 février 2010 - 01:11 .

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And would he have any of that if Anora stood up to him and told him his place was as military leader and not regent?  You're suggesting he could have deposed Anora and still retained his power.

Loghain would have had little trouble proverbially sending Anora to her room for her own good, making some excuse for her absence and ruling the kingdom. He had an army. Whatever army Anora might have had for her own protection died at Ostagar. Even if she had relieved Loghain of his military position, she would have had no way of actually enforcing her edict.

Loghain even with Anora's support could not rule the country.  Loghain without her could?  Color me skeptical.

He can and did.  Only the actions of the PC topple him--and even then, the Landsmeet is close if Anora supports him, is it not?  Without Eammon, without any of he additional dirt you dig up on him, you really think he's going to get toppled?

Ferelden's nobles are a bunch of scared ****** and Loghain's a war hero, and there's a war going on.

Modifié par maxernst, 26 février 2010 - 01:13 .

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

He can and did.  Only the actions of the PC topple him--and even then, the Landsmeet is close if Anora supports him, is it not?  Without Eammon, without any of he additional dirt you dig up on him, you really think he's going to get toppled?

You contradict yourself in your own statements.  Look at what happens to Loghain's support if Anora speaks out against him at the Landsmeet.  If she had done that first thing, would Bann Teagan have been the lone voice at that council saying what he said?

[maxernst]

When would she have an opportunity to say that? The nobles haven't gathered yet and as soon as she turns on him, she'd never be seen in public again.

[Addai]

Helios969 wrote...

Careful ejoslin, the intellectual bullys will gang up on if you fail to agree that Anora is an evil and incompetant ruler with no redeemable qualities.  This argument has deteriorated beyond any rational middle ground.

Such comments are unhelpful, not to mention mistaken- it's been a good discussion.  If you can't maintain the same tone, I suggest you bow out.

[IanPolaris]

maxernst wrote...

@IanPolaris, do you really believe Howe got his mage to cast that spell imprisoning Anora? Is Howe that much of a fool that he'd risk luring the Grey Warden into his home to kill him himself? I just can't imagine he'd put himself at risk that way. I also find it difficult to believe Ser Cauthrien would be involved in a scheme like this. I would have liked an option to ask Anora how she wound up at Eammon's, but the fact that she "gives you up" does play to your advantage since she's able to tell the others what's happened to you. I've no idea why Ser Cauthrien doesn't imprison the rest of your companions, only Alistair, though.

Arl Howe is an arrogant bastard who probably feels that he can get away with everyone just short of killing Anora especially if Logain told him that it would be best if Anora were "unavailable" for a time.  He probably feels that if Logain got upset, he could weasel his way out of it (it worked for the Terynian of Highever after all!)

As for Ser Cauthrien, she is a soldier first and formost.  If Queen Anora said she needed rescuing at a moment's notice, then Cauthrien would say "Yes Ma'am" unless Logain himself said differently.  I don't think that Ser Cauthrien would consider any political consequences past that.  Furthermore if Queen Anora (and Logain esp Logain) were to say that only the Wardens matter, Cauthrien would not question it.  Ser Cauthrien is very good at saluting and turning off her brain.

So yes, I believe it.  So should you.

I wondered about the absurdly fast arrival of Ser Cauthrien as well, but it may just be a plot hole. I suppose it's possible someone might have seen you approaching Howe's estate (you don't put on the disguises until you get there) and well--it's not thard to figure out why the Grey Warden might be paying Howe a visit, at least if he's playing the human noble origin.

I am not going to invoke plot-hole unless I must.  There is a perfectly good explaination for Ser Cauthrian showing up when she does with the orders she has.  It's called set-up by Anora probably done with her maidservent Erlina tipping off Ser Cauthrien at the correct time.

-Polaris

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...

When would she have an opportunity to say that? The nobles haven't gathered yet and as soon as she turns on him, she'd never be seen in public again.

Such as when the nobles were assembled after Ostagar?

And you really believe Loghain would gain the throne if he had Anora murdered soon after Ostagar?  Is this meant to be an argument in favor of what a strong queen Anora is?  Because you seem to be undermining the very point you're trying to make, if it is.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 février 2010 - 01:18 .

[maxernst]

Whether Loghain would fall if Anora turned on him or not is irrelevant. All that matters is whether Loghain would step down peacefully and step down peacefully if she did. I don't believe he would. I tmight be the rational thing to do but Loghain isn't rational. Anora's not prepared to be a martyr, which I don't find difficult to understand.

[IanPolaris]

maxernst wrote...

He can and did.  Only the actions of the PC topple him--and even then, the Landsmeet is close if Anora supports him, is it not?  Without Eammon, without any of he additional dirt you dig up on him, you really think he's going to get toppled?

Ferelden's nobles are a bunch of scared ****** and Loghain's a war hero, and there's a war going on.

Actually no he didn't.  If you listen to the rumors and the gossipers. there was a full blown civil war in the Bannorn for most of the year that you are adventuring.  The only way that Logain comes out on top is a series of military victories followed by a Reign of Terror that would make Bloody Mary envious and makes Logain hated by much of the country.  Fact is, however, that many nobles are too scared to oppose Logain after what's he's done (stringing up Banns and their families like common criminals for example) until there looks to be a reasonable chance and excuse to do otherwise.  Then most can't wait to oppose him.  It's shocking how much support Logain loses in the landsmeet in less than a week when you (the Grey Warden) give the nobles a REAL alternative.

-Polaris

[RangerSG]

IanPolaris,



There's a long battle going on the dungeon of the Arl. You don't think SOMEONE might have noticed large amounts of magic and swordplay coming from downstairs and MAYBE informed Loghain? And who would Loghain send if not Cauthrein. Sorry, the whole "Anora set it all up" thing is about as believable to me as "the moon landing was faked" and "The Queen of England runs a worldwide drug cartel" category. It's perfectly rational that Loghain would send his best soldiers if someone reported the Warden was attacking the Arl's Castle.



And Anora realistically has no way to be sure Cauthrein won't kill everyone on general principle. It's not like she's the most discerning pit bull one could have.



And you also managed to misread the entire thread about the discussion of the Elven Riot. The riot in question is from the EPILOGUE. It's an event that people use to "prove" Anora's solo rule wasn't effective. An epilogue card shows up saying Anora is forced to put down an alienage riot. I hope you're not trying to tell us all that there was never, even an Arl of Denerim again.



Seeing as you could thoroughly misread the entire thread and land on a wrong statement for that, it does nothing to convince me of the validity of your conspiracy theory.

[maxernst]

Yes, you're a real alternative because you have an ARMY.

[Reaverwind]

RangerSG wrote...

IanPolaris,

There's a long battle going on the dungeon of the Arl. You don't think SOMEONE might have noticed large amounts of magic and swordplay coming from downstairs and MAYBE informed Loghain? And who would Loghain send if not Cauthrein. Sorry, the whole "Anora set it all up" thing is about as believable to me as "the moon landing was faked" and "The Queen of England runs a worldwide drug cartel" category. It's perfectly rational that Loghain would send his best soldiers if someone reported the Warden was attacking the Arl's Castle.

That only holds water if the warden enters openly, and fights his/her way through the entire estate. Now try explaining how anyone would realise who was responsible for the commotion in dungeon, let alone even care there was a commotion in the dungeon given what Howe was into, and have there be time for Cauthrien to assemble her troops to respond, IF the warden chooses to sneak in?

Modifié par Reaverwind, 26 février 2010 - 01:32 .

[IanPolaris]

RangerSG wrote...

IanPolaris,

There's a long battle going on the dungeon of the Arl. You don't think SOMEONE might have noticed large amounts of magic and swordplay coming from downstairs and MAYBE informed Loghain? And who would Loghain send if not Cauthrein. Sorry, the whole "Anora set it all up" thing is about as believable to me as "the moon landing was faked" and "The Queen of England runs a worldwide drug cartel" category. It's perfectly rational that Loghain would send his best soldiers if someone reported the Warden was attacking the Arl's Castle.

I've clocked the battles that go on in the dungeon.  It takes less than an hour and honestly that would be about right.  Furthermore there is no sign that the alarm as been raised at all or else you should have been mobbed by Arl Howe's guards when you go back up to the upper floor.

No.  You aren't paying attention and insults aside, you IMHO are being willfully blind.  The fact is that Ser Cautherian has information that NO ONE else has (not even the Arl's own men).  Who could give her that information?  Only Queen Anora.  It's not a stretch and it's not a conspiracy theory.  It's a levelheaded assessment of the situation.

And Anora realistically has no way to be sure Cauthrein won't kill everyone on general principle. It's not like she's the most discerning pit bull one could have.

Bull.  Ser Cauthien is an expert soldier and fanatically loyal to both Logain and his daughter.  If the Qeen did not want the Wardens to die, then Ser Cauthrien would bend over backwards to insure that they didn't.  That's not to say that accidents don't happen in war, but to call Cauthrein a "Pit Bull" does the character an injustice and makes me wonder if you've actually played the same game.

And you also managed to misread the entire thread about the discussion of the Elven Riot. The riot in question is from the EPILOGUE. It's an event that people use to "prove" Anora's solo rule wasn't effective. An epilogue card shows up saying Anora is forced to put down an alienage riot. I hope you're not trying to tell us all that there was never, even an Arl of Denerim again.

The Arl of Denerim exists solely on the discretion of the Crown.  That's especially true because the Arling of Denerim reverts to the crown by the Landsmeet.  To make matters worse, if you read the epilog and other notes carefully, if Anora is married to a Cousland, there are constant references to power struggles.  In addition it's worth noting that Anora as ruling queen is the ONLY epilog that has ANY civil unrest and usually where there is smoke there is fire.  Anora is not that good a ruler.  Face it.

Seeing as you could thoroughly misread the entire thread and land on a wrong statement for that, it does nothing to convince me of the validity of your conspiracy theory.

Resorting to ad hominem attacks to those that have the temerity to disagree with you does not impress me.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Reaverwind wrote...

That only holds water if the warden enters openly, and fights his/her way through the entire estate. Now try explaining how anyone would realise who was responsible for the commotion in dungeon, let alone even care there was a commotion in the dungeon given what Howe was into, and have there be time for Cauthrien to assemble her troops to respond, IF the warden chooses to sneak in?

Precisely.  If you sneak in using disquises, there is no evidence that the Arl's Forces even know he's dead until you run into them AFTER leaving the dungon.  Indeed if you take the route back through Howe's bedroom, the Arl's forces never know that Howe is dead until after Ser Cauthrien already tries to arrest you.

So how could Cauthrien know about a "crime" that even his own forces don't know happened yet?  Either Cauthrien is psychic or Queen Anora is a double-crossing rat.

Pick one.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

Or Loghain has spies keeping tabs on you.

That cook in Arl Eamon's Denerim estate has always seemed suspicious to me. She is too stereotypically a cook.

:happy:

Modifié par mousestalker, 26 février 2010 - 01:43 .

[ejoslin]

My money is still on Erlina being an Orlesian bard working for Loghain . . . She had a lot more freedom than Anora did during that time!

Edit: Only problem with that theory, I suppose, is Loghain is pretty paranoid about Orlesians at that point . . .

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 01:46 .

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

My money is still on Erlina being an Orlesian bard working for Loghain . . . She had a lot more freedom than Anora did during that time!

Edit: Only problem with that theory, I suppose, is Loghain is pretty paranoid about Orlesians at that point . . .

Erlina being an Orlesian bard is very  believable IMHO.  However, I think that her patron is not Teryn Logain, but Queen Anora herself.  Why?  Teryn Logain seems to be genuinely upset and genuinely not know where is daughter was during the landsmeet.  There is no way that he'd set himself up to be upstaged so badly by his own daughter if he had an Orlesian bard telling him where is daughter already was.  Not to mention the fact that Logain's anti-Orlesian paranoia is so severe that I don't think he's deal directly with an Orlesian...not even a bard.

Queen Anora OTOH is just the sort of person that would make good use of a Bard's services.  This you realize just supports my contention that Anora set this up as a double-cross from the word "go".  It's the sort of plan that a Bard on your staff would help you set up and execute.

-Polaris

Edit:  The same criticism also applies to the notion that Logain's spies told him you were coming.  If Logain did have spies in Eamon's household that could give him this sort of good information (not an impossible notion by any means), then he would NOT have stumbled so badly by demanding to know where the Queen was....he already would have known.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 février 2010 - 01:51 .

[mousestalker]

To expand further on that. Let's suppose that Laoghain tells his right hand girl, Ser Cauthrien to keep an eye on Anora. He loves his daughter, but she's a drama queen. Howe is his right hand man, but he is shifty and a sociopath.



We know that Loghain likes keeping tabs on folks (Berwick at Redcliffe). The agent mingles in with the angry tradesmen, sees you come up and slips off to report to his boss, Ser Cauthrien. She grabs some troops and heads to Howe's place. One possible thing she could be worried about is that you're there to kill Anora. When she gets there, she sees Anora (they know each other, after all) and sees you're covered in blood, puts two and two together and arrests you for killing Howe.



I'm not saying that's what happened. I am saying that's what could have happened. What we don't have is a enough facts for conclusive proof as to what happened. It's part of what makes this a great game.