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[ejoslin]

I guess my problem is, my mind doesn't just twist and turn in those ways. I cannot reconcile Anora's behavior after the warden is arrested with her being the one who set the warden up. I know she wants Alistair out of the picture, but she wants the warden safe. Plus, if you don't take Alistair with you, then if she really was plotting, it was rendered completely moot.

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

To expand further on that. Let's suppose that Laoghain tells his right hand girl, Ser Cauthrien to keep an eye on Anora. He loves his daughter, but she's a drama queen. Howe is his right hand man, but he is shifty and a sociopath.

We know that Loghain likes keeping tabs on folks (Berwick at Redcliffe). The agent mingles in with the angry tradesmen, sees you come up and slips off to report to his boss, Ser Cauthrien. She grabs some troops and heads to Howe's place. One possible thing she could be worried about is that you're there to kill Anora. When she gets there, she sees Anora (they know each other, after all) and sees you're covered in blood, puts two and two together and arrests you for killing Howe.

I'm not saying that's what happened. I am saying that's what could have happened. What we don't have is a enough facts for conclusive proof as to what happened. It's part of what makes this a great game.

I don't buy this for a nano-second.  If Ser Cauthrien were keeping tabs on the Queen, then the moment Howe locked her up, she would have been rescued and/or Howe would have released her on pain of Logain's severe displeasure. 

Howe himself gives the game away when you confront him in his dungeon and claim you're there to rescue the queen.  Howe quite bluntly tells you that she is playing you for a fool and he is right.  In this one case you should take Howe's word at face value since as far as he's concerned you're going to die anyway so he has no reason not to tell you the truth.  In fact he laughs in your face scornfully about how badly Anora is using you.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

My own personal opinion is that Anora is both a drama queen and an opportunist. She wants to be able to talk about being rescued from the clutches of the evil Arl Howe (I think she thought it was time to throw him under the bus. Does anyone really buy that she didn't know what was going on in the Alienage? Erlina could have found out in two seconds). As for being an opportunist, she takes her chances when she sees them.

[mousestalker]

IanPolaris wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

To expand further on that. Let's suppose that Laoghain tells his right hand girl, Ser Cauthrien to keep an eye on Anora. He loves his daughter, but she's a drama queen. Howe is his right hand man, but he is shifty and a sociopath.

We know that Loghain likes keeping tabs on folks (Berwick at Redcliffe). The agent mingles in with the angry tradesmen, sees you come up and slips off to report to his boss, Ser Cauthrien. She grabs some troops and heads to Howe's place. One possible thing she could be worried about is that you're there to kill Anora. When she gets there, she sees Anora (they know each other, after all) and sees you're covered in blood, puts two and two together and arrests you for killing Howe.

I'm not saying that's what happened. I am saying that's what could have happened. What we don't have is a enough facts for conclusive proof as to what happened. It's part of what makes this a great game.

I don't buy this for a nano-second.  If Ser Cauthrien were keeping tabs on the Queen, then the moment Howe locked her up, she would have been rescued and/or Howe would have released her on pain of Logain's severe displeasure. 

Howe himself gives the game away when you confront him in his dungeon and claim you're there to rescue the queen.  Howe quite bluntly tells you that she is playing you for a fool and he is right.  In this one case you should take Howe's word at face value since as far as he's concerned you're going to die anyway so he has no reason not to tell you the truth.  In fact he laughs in your face scornfully about how badly Anora is using you.

-Polaris

Loghain tells you in camp that Anora was never in danger. Believe whom you will. I think they were both right. Loghain wanted his daughter on ice so she couldn't stage some sort of flashy amateur theatrics at the Landsmeet. You as the Warden make that fantasy of his a non-reality.

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
He who wishes to be obeyed must know how to command and it is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.  Niccolo Machiavelli

Go back to your history classes.

Most history students/professors in the modern day see The Prince as a piece of satire, comedy shared amongst his friends.  They suggest this is why he never published it himself and it was only published after his death.  It is far and away different from the views on leadership he espoused when he was alive.

I suggest reading Discori, for instance.

Indeed, IF The Prince was actually meant as an instruction manual for maintaining power one need only look at the fact that the methods contained therein would only work--or at least work best--were they NEVER made publically available.  Antonio Gramsci even goes so far as to suggest that The Prince was written for the public and not for the princes.  An idea supported by the fact that it was written in Italian and not Latin--the language of the ruling elite.  It was made accessible.

Further, Machievelli was assumed to be a realist, while the characters and actions in The Prince are very much not so.  He was also a republican and believed in elected representatives all through life.

I think many people need to step back and realize that they're playing a fantasy role playing game.  Some seem to have immersed themselves a bit to far.  It's not real, and some of the inconsistencies may have more to do with writing oversight than any real intention(s).  Personally, I'm a moderate, which is why I always go for the Anora-Alistair pairing.  Some just take it all too serious.  I'm my game, my choice works out great.  In yours, I'm sure your choice works out great.  There is no right or wrong.  People that think otherwise need to unplug from the game for a while.  Basically that's all I'm arguing.  And maybe antagonizing some that decide to take people disagreeing with their position personally and blathering on about how much more educated and superior their thought process is.  Talk to me rationally and reasonably with a modicum of respect and you shall receive the same.  Speak like a petulant child and expect to be treated like one.  Pretty easy, huh?  Too bad some just won't get it.

Kinda goes both ways.

But, if you've paid attention you might notice that I'm a moderate as well.  Perhaps more moderate than even you because I understand that ALL choices are valid and have made all three choices regarding who rules in three different games.  However, the idea that the 'Anora-Hate' has no basis is far more ridiculous than the idea that Anora is a terrible person.  Particularily in that the former, the idea that people who hate her are merely misinformed, is presenting an opinion as an absolute.  I suppose the other side is just as guilty of this, but my most recent game was attempting to do an HFN queen, and my character was above lying so I got backstabbed pretty hard.  Therefore I'm probably a bit biased in that I notice the arrogance and inconsistencies in one argument much more readily than I notice them in the other.

But I've been trying to distance myself from the actual Anora argument after getting frustrated with each of my posts being taken as an island by a few people, rather than as part of an overarching argument, so I wasn't even arguing about Anora at that/this point.  I was merely educating you/others on the meaning of The Prince.  People really shouldn't ever quote The Prince when suggesting valid ways to rule. It was never intended as such, and rulers that come closest to Machiavellian ruling have a tendency to be overthrown.

For the record, Anora isn't Machiavellian by any stretch of the imagination.

Edit: Someday I will find out who is responsible for the sometimes random and ridiculous formatting that takes place on the forums sometimes, and I will kick them straight in the crotch.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

I guess my problem is, my mind doesn't just twist and turn in those ways. I cannot reconcile Anora's behavior after the warden is arrested with her being the one who set the warden up. I know she wants Alistair out of the picture, but she wants the warden safe. Plus, if you don't take Alistair with you, then if she really was plotting, it was rendered completely moot.

Anora is nobody's dummy.  Her father wants all the Grey Wardens killed, but Anora herself most likely has severe misgivings since it's well known in Thedas that only Grey Wardens can ultimately defeat the blight.  I also wouldn't put it past her to recognized that you've put together an army that probably could conquer Fereldan outright (yes it's only for the blight but I'm looking at it from her eyes) not to mention the fact that the last thing Fereldan needs is to irritate it's neighbors (who hold the GWs in high regard esp Orlais) just when there is a blight to be dealt with.

Given all of that of course Anora wants the Grey Warden (at least the PC GW) to be safe.  However, if she can get the PC GW's backing with that massive army, then she finally has a counterweight to her father.

Doesn't make me like her any more, but her genuine relief that you are OK and her orders to arrest you (and keep you alive) to Ser Cauthrien are not inconsistant.  In a way, Anora probably feels like she's saving Fereldan's foreign policy from her father's paranoia (and indeed she says as much later).

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 février 2010 - 02:02 .

[maxernst]

IanPolaris wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

That only holds water if the warden enters openly, and fights his/her way through the entire estate. Now try explaining how anyone would realise who was responsible for the commotion in dungeon, let alone even care there was a commotion in the dungeon given what Howe was into, and have there be time for Cauthrien to assemble her troops to respond, IF the warden chooses to sneak in?

Precisely.  If you sneak in using disquises, there is no evidence that the Arl's Forces even know he's dead until you run into them AFTER leaving the dungon.  Indeed if you take the route back through Howe's bedroom, the Arl's forces never know that Howe is dead until after Ser Cauthrien already tries to arrest you.

So how could Cauthrien know about a "crime" that even his own forces don't know happened yet?  Either Cauthrien is psychic or Queen Anora is a double-crossing rat.

Pick one.

-Polaris

But you don't put on the disguises until you reach the estate, so all it requires is somebody following through the streets of Denerim.  Anyway, if Anora can really orchestrate all that, then she's clearly the best suited to govern!

The way I see it, you have two choices--you can win the Landsmeet easily and put someone on the throne who is experienced, popular, and said to be competent in administration.  That's what your character knows about her..  She may not be perfect, but you'll have control of the army to fight the blight which should be your top priority.  Alternatively, you can have more of a struggle at the Landsmeet, putting Ferelden at greater risk, in the hopes of placing someone on the throne who may well be nicer and have good bloodlines, but has no governing experience whatsoever.  I just don't see the benefit to the Grey Wardens of not supporting Anora, especially given that with marriage, you can get Anora's help AND still have that more righteous and honest person on the throne beside her.

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

My own personal opinion is that Anora is both a drama queen and an opportunist. She wants to be able to talk about being rescued from the clutches of the evil Arl Howe (I think she thought it was time to throw him under the bus. Does anyone really buy that she didn't know what was going on in the Alienage? Erlina could have found out in two seconds). As for being an opportunist, she takes her chances when she sees them.

Of course she did, and Arl Eamon calls her out on it by stating (correctly) that she could have sent this Alienage information with her maid.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

maxernst wrote...

But you don't put on the disguises until you reach the estate, so all it requires is somebody following through the streets of Denerim.  Anyway, if Anora can really orchestrate all that, then she's clearly the best suited to govern!

Not at all.  Organizing a double-cross ==/== ability to govern.  Indeed if Erlina is an Orlesian bard (which seems more and more reasonable to me the more I consider it), Erlina might actually be the one that is doing the heavy lifting here.  As for the other point, just because the PCs are near Arl Howe's estate ==/== there is a rescue attempt underway.  Arl Howe is clearly acting as Logain's spymaster and thus such information would have been forwarded to Arl Howe first!  If what you suggest is true, then Arl Howe's men should have been ready for you from the start and they were not.

No, this thoery just doesn't hold under any kind of analysis.

The way I see it, you have two choices--you can win the Landsmeet easily and put someone on the throne who is experienced, popular, and said to be competent in administration.  That's what your character knows about her..  She may not be perfect, but you'll have control of the army to fight the blight which should be your top priority.  Alternatively, you can have more of a struggle at the Landsmeet, putting Ferelden at greater risk, in the hopes of placing someone on the throne who may well be nicer and have good bloodlines, but has no governing experience whatsoever.  I just don't see the benefit to the Grey Wardens of not supporting Anora, especially given that with marriage, you can get Anora's help AND still have that more righteous and honest person on the throne beside her.

You also know that she did nothing to aid you until the very last minute when she could have.  You also have had a year to see Alistair mature and grow and become (if hardened) actually quite kingly, and while Arl Eamon has his own agenda, he is basically right.  Having Therin blood is important for a ruling in Fereldan if one is to unite the country which is something that Anora without Cailan was unable to do (if you listen ot the gossips).

-Polaris

[krylo]

maxernst wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

That only holds water if the warden enters openly, and fights his/her way through the entire estate. Now try explaining how anyone would realise who was responsible for the commotion in dungeon, let alone even care there was a commotion in the dungeon given what Howe was into, and have there be time for Cauthrien to assemble her troops to respond, IF the warden chooses to sneak in?

Precisely.  If you sneak in using disquises, there is no evidence that the Arl's Forces even know he's dead until you run into them AFTER leaving the dungon.  Indeed if you take the route back through Howe's bedroom, the Arl's forces never know that Howe is dead until after Ser Cauthrien already tries to arrest you.

So how could Cauthrien know about a "crime" that even his own forces don't know happened yet?  Either Cauthrien is psychic or Queen Anora is a double-crossing rat.

Pick one.

-Polaris

But you don't put on the disguises until you reach the estate, so all it requires is somebody following through the streets of Denerim.  Anyway, if Anora can really orchestrate all that, then she's clearly the best suited to govern!

The way I see it, you have two choices--you can win the Landsmeet easily and put someone on the throne who is experienced, popular, and said to be competent in administration.  That's what your character knows about her..  She may not be perfect, but you'll have control of the army to fight the blight which should be your top priority.  Alternatively, you can have more of a struggle at the Landsmeet, putting Ferelden at greater risk, in the hopes of placing someone on the throne who may well be nicer and have good bloodlines, but has no governing experience whatsoever.  I just don't see the benefit to the Grey Wardens of not supporting Anora, especially given that with marriage, you can get Anora's help AND still have that more righteous and honest person on the throne beside her.

Actually there's a third choice.

You lie to Anora, get her backing in removing Loghain, and then choose Alistair, anyway.  I think I did this at least once.  It was magnificent.  At the very least I told her I'd let Loghain live and then didn't.

That said, the advantage/benefit to the Grey Wardens of not supporting Anora is pretty obvious--a Grey Warden on the throne of a country that has, up until this point, been distrustful of the Grey Wardens. 

[RangerSG]

krylo wrote...

maxernst wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

That only holds water if the warden enters openly, and fights his/her way through the entire estate. Now try explaining how anyone would realise who was responsible for the commotion in dungeon, let alone even care there was a commotion in the dungeon given what Howe was into, and have there be time for Cauthrien to assemble her troops to respond, IF the warden chooses to sneak in?

Precisely.  If you sneak in using disquises, there is no evidence that the Arl's Forces even know he's dead until you run into them AFTER leaving the dungon.  Indeed if you take the route back through Howe's bedroom, the Arl's forces never know that Howe is dead until after Ser Cauthrien already tries to arrest you.

So how could Cauthrien know about a "crime" that even his own forces don't know happened yet?  Either Cauthrien is psychic or Queen Anora is a double-crossing rat.

Pick one.

-Polaris

But you don't put on the disguises until you reach the estate, so all it requires is somebody following through the streets of Denerim.  Anyway, if Anora can really orchestrate all that, then she's clearly the best suited to govern!

The way I see it, you have two choices--you can win the Landsmeet easily and put someone on the throne who is experienced, popular, and said to be competent in administration.  That's what your character knows about her..  She may not be perfect, but you'll have control of the army to fight the blight which should be your top priority.  Alternatively, you can have more of a struggle at the Landsmeet, putting Ferelden at greater risk, in the hopes of placing someone on the throne who may well be nicer and have good bloodlines, but has no governing experience whatsoever.  I just don't see the benefit to the Grey Wardens of not supporting Anora, especially given that with marriage, you can get Anora's help AND still have that more righteous and honest person on the throne beside her.

Actually there's a third choice.

You lie to Anora, get her backing in removing Loghain, and then choose Alistair, anyway.  I think I did this at least once.  It was magnificent.  At the very least I told her I'd let Loghain live and then didn't.

That said, the advantage/benefit to the Grey Wardens of not supporting Anora is pretty obvious--a Grey Warden on the throne of a country that has, up until this point, been distrustful of the Grey Wardens. 

Except that Grey Wardens are supposed to be politically neutral and doing that may, in the long run, turn Ferelden into another version of the Anderfels and justify their concerns about the Wardens in the first place!

[krylo]

RangerSG wrote...



Except that Grey Wardens are supposed to be politically neutral and doing that may, in the long run, turn Ferelden into another version of the Anderfels and justify their concerns about the Wardens in the first place!

The quote pile was getting ridiculous.

Anyway: True 'nuff.

No plan/reasoning is perfect in that situation.  I was merely pointing out that there is a reason to back Alistair (beyond just liking him more/not liking Anora/trust issues), and if you have the political savvy you can do it with no more difficulty than putting Anora on the throne.

[IanPolaris]

RangerSG wrote...

Except that Grey Wardens are supposed to be politically neutral and doing that may, in the long run, turn Ferelden into another version of the Anderfels and justify their concerns about the Wardens in the first place!

You are forgetting the cardinal exception to GW Neutrality.  Any leader that makes it difficult for the GWs to oppose the blight must be eliminated.  Riodan when you rescue him makes no bones about this.  The rest of Thedas' Grey Wardens are openly plotting to remove Logain (and Anora) from the throne because according to the Grey Wardens, they are helping the Darkspawn for their shortsighted political gain.

To the Grey Wardens, nobody gets in the way of fighting the Grey Wardens or you get the Grey Wardens as an enemy.  Your own PC in soldier's peak (to Levi Drydon) puts it this way when Levi asks what's so different from what Sofia did with Arland and what you are doing with Logain.  "...the blight changes everything."

The fact is that Anora for whatever reason let herself be used to oppose the Grey Wardens during a blight or herself actively knew about (and condoned) plans to oppose the Grey Wardens during a blight.  My take on the Grey Wardens is doing that makes death too good for her.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

krylo wrote...

Actually there's a third choice.

You lie to Anora, get her backing in removing Loghain, and then choose Alistair, anyway.  I think I did this at least once.  It was magnificent.  At the very least I told her I'd let Loghain live and then didn't.

That said, the advantage/benefit to the Grey Wardens of not supporting Anora is pretty obvious--a Grey Warden on the throne of a country that has, up until this point, been distrustful of the Grey Wardens. 

There is an even sneakier way to get Anora's backing and then depose her and what's better, you get HER to publically break her promise to you.  Simply get Anora to agree to marry Alistair.

Then have Alistair execute Logain (which from your conversation with Anora should tell you that this would likely be a deal breaker for her).  If you do this, you get her to renounce the agreement she had with you in front of the landsmeet.  After that, her name is no better than dirt.  I love doing this on occassion.  The only drawback is if you do this playing a human noble female, you don't get the option of marrying Alistair.

-Polaris

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

You are forgetting the cardinal exception to GW Neutrality.  Any leader that makes it difficult for the GWs to oppose the blight must be eliminated.  Riodan when you rescue him makes no bones about this.  The rest of Thedas' Grey Wardens are openly plotting to remove Logain (and Anora) from the throne because according to the Grey Wardens, they are helping the Darkspawn for their shortsighted political gain.

-Polaris

Snipped your post some, but this is the only part I'm addressing.

I remember Riorden saying they were NOT going to get involved in Ferelden's civil war because they needed their strength to fight the blight and if Ferelden was too stupid to save itself, they would be strong enough when the blight came to other lands to defeat the arch demon.  It wasn't until after the civil war was over that Riorden sent word to try to get more wardens, but there wasn't the time.

Or am I wrong?  Is there a dialog I missed?

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[IanPolaris]

ejoslin wrote...

Snipped your post some, but this is the only part I'm addressing.

I remember Riorden saying they were NOT going to get involved in Ferelden's civil war because they needed their strength to fight the blight and if Ferelden was too stupid to save itself, they would be strong enough when the blight came to other lands to defeat the arch demon.  It wasn't until after the civil war was over that Riorden sent word to try to get more wardens, but there wasn't the time.

Or am I wrong?  Is there a dialog I missed?

You are remembering it wrong.  You are correct that the GWs decided not to send military forces to Ferelden, but instead looked for people to see what was going on and how to oppose the current regime and Riordan as a native Fereldan volunteered.

The point is that the Grey Wardens ARE going to oppose the current leadership of Fereldan and that includes Anora.  What they are not going to do is tax their strength on a Fereldan civil war when there's a blight to worry about.  They WILL however work to depose Logain (and Anorna) behind the scenes and indeed that is part of Riordan's mission.  Certainly Logain and Howe are openly opposed to all Grey Wardens and not just those in Fereldan (and Howe is very open about it during his final confrontation).

That being so, the Grey Wardens have good reason not to trust Anora and thus not to put her on the throne especially when a Grey Warden alternative (Alistair) is available.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  Think about it.  If the Grey Wardens were just going to write off Fereldan as too stupid to defend itself (which apparently per Arl Eamon is the position of Celene I, Empress of Orlais), they would not have sent anyone let alone a high ranking Grey Warden (Senior Warden of Jader is very high ranking)

Modifié par IanPolaris, 26 février 2010 - 03:38 .

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You are forgetting the cardinal exception to GW Neutrality.  Any leader that makes it difficult for the GWs to oppose the blight must be eliminated.  Riodan when you rescue him makes no bones about this.  The rest of Thedas' Grey Wardens are openly plotting to remove Logain (and Anora) from the throne because according to the Grey Wardens, they are helping the Darkspawn for their shortsighted political gain.

-Polaris

Snipped your post some, but this is the only part I'm addressing.

I remember Riorden saying they were NOT going to get involved in Ferelden's civil war because they needed their strength to fight the blight and if Ferelden was too stupid to save itself, they would be strong enough when the blight came to other lands to defeat the arch demon.  It wasn't until after the civil war was over that Riorden sent word to try to get more wardens, but there wasn't the time.

Or am I wrong?  Is there a dialog I missed?

I believe he said something along those lines, but I believe that was in reference to the chevaliers. Orlais was writing off Fereldan as a lost cause. However, from Riordan's comments, I gathered they don't have much of a problem with wardens local to the area getting involved with politics, so long as it's to the wardens' benefit.

[ejoslin]

IanPolaris wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Snipped your post some, but this is the only part I'm addressing.

I remember Riorden saying they were NOT going to get involved in Ferelden's civil war because they needed their strength to fight the blight and if Ferelden was too stupid to save itself, they would be strong enough when the blight came to other lands to defeat the arch demon.  It wasn't until after the civil war was over that Riorden sent word to try to get more wardens, but there wasn't the time.

Or am I wrong?  Is there a dialog I missed?

You are remembering it wrong.  You are correct that the GWs decided not to send military forces to Ferelden, but instead looked for people to see what was going on and how to oppose the current regime and Riordan as a native Fereldan volunteered.

The point is that the Grey Wardens ARE going to oppose the current leadership of Fereldan and that includes Anora.  What they are not going to do is tax their strength on a Fereldan civil war when there's a blight to worry about.  They WILL however work to depose Logain (and Anorna) behind the scenes and indeed that is part of Riordan's mission.  Certainly Logain and Howe are openly opposed to all Grey Wardens and not just those in Fereldan (and Howe is very open about it during his final confrontation).

That being so, the Grey Wardens have good reason not to trust Anora and thus not to put her on the throne especially when a Grey Warden alternative (Alistair) is available.

-Polaris

*grin* I knew I'd regret asking that.  You're right, he does say that, and support of course does not necessarily mean military support.

ok, stepping aside now.

[Thor Rand Al]

ejoslin wrote...
What kind of ruler I think Anora would make is actually irrelevant (I'm not a fan of hers), but the whole "she set the warden up" just doesn't make sense given her actions afterwards.  I could understand her wanting Howe dead, and that may have been the reason she had the warden rescue her, but then why have her (or them) arrested only to escape to Eamon and tell him where she was taken if she were behind Cauthrien being there?

Erlina was from Orlais -- is it possible she was actually working for someone other than Anora?  Thatseems likely to me but there's nothing in the game that actually indicates that (other than quite a lot is made of Orlisian spies).

As far as Anora wanting Howe dead it could be to try n remove his sadistic as* away from her father because she thinks that's the reason her father's done what he's done.  Howe's influence on Loghain. 



But I do believe that the whole rescue thing was a set-up somewhere.  How does one explain Cauthrien being there at that particular time.  She just happens to be there as you've freed Anora from her room n are about to walk out the door.  Something's definitely fishy there.  What if this was Anora's way to see how far she can trust you; what if this was a way to scare you by sending you to prison, maybe sending a message worse can happen?  I'm not sure how much Anora's involved, but part of me says she is a lot, by telling the guards you kidnapped her if you say to Cauthrien that your there to free Anora.  The more I think about it the more I believe Anora and her maid are setting you up.  Obviously Anora and her maid know when you've killed Howe n his mages cause the barrier comes down. 

What if at that moment it came down (barrier) Erlina went running outside to where 1 of Loghain's gaurds where to let them know what had transpired inside n that's why the gaurds where there when you get ready to leave?
Anora knew that going to Howe's was a mistake, maybe she didn't think he'd go as far as he did but she knew there was going to be a risk. 

We don't even know how long Anora was in there before the Warden's came in.  Obviously not very long cause you know that if she'd been gone to long that somewhere you'd here a rumor that the Queen was missing or not around.
I'm pretty sure Loghain would of been tearing through Denerim looking for his daughter, (unless he's involved too) because without her he'd be looked at very very closely, Loghain needs Anora around.  Everyone know's that a Landsmeet is going to happen when Eamon sends out the word while your finishing gathering your army.  Loghain n Anora know about Alistair.  There are too many coincidences for this rescue not to be planned.  And as a lot of people have said, everyone except the Wardens are being sent free.  The Warden's are wanted, the Warden's are wanted for a reason n that reason Anora has something to do with.  The question is why and for what reason?

Edit:

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 26 février 2010 - 05:32 .

[Thor Rand Al]

IanPolaris wrote...
There is an even sneakier way to get Anora's backing and then depose her and what's better, you get HER to publically break her promise to you.  Simply get Anora to agree to marry Alistair.

Then have Alistair execute Logain (which from your conversation with Anora should tell you that this would likely be a deal breaker for her).  If you do this, you get her to renounce the agreement she had with you in front of the landsmeet.  After that, her name is no better than dirt.  I love doing this on occassion.  The only drawback is if you do this playing a human noble female, you don't get the option of marrying Alistair.

-Polaris

Ohhh kewl, I'm gonna have to do this when I decide to redo 1 of my male Wardens lol.  Sounds so fun lmao.  I know that's wicked of me but hey gotta play all the options right lmao

[Helios969]

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Careful ejoslin, the intellectual bullys will gang up on if you fail to agree that Anora is an evil and incompetant ruler with no redeemable qualities.  This argument has deteriorated beyond any rational middle ground.

Such comments are unhelpful, not to mention mistaken- it's been a good discussion.  If you can't maintain the same tone, I suggest you bow out.

Thanks, you managed to prove my point.  If you want to have a "good" discussion then refrain from attacking posters who disagree with your position.  Insulting posters by telling them they don't know what they're talking about or they should read a book or just how you have much more knowledge on the subject is more than a little condescending.  Someone has thrown around the word ignorant (you?) more than once in these discussions and it's quite inappropriate to belittle other posters. 

If you want make peace then lets do that.  Tone down the 'I'm the smartest person in the room and no one else has anything valid to offer' attitude.  The only thing you need to know about dealing with me is that I respond accordingly - politeness begets politeness and vice versa.

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...
 Tone down the 'I'm the smartest person in the room

But I am. 

Helios969 wrote...

 The only thing you need to know about dealing with me is that I respond accordingly - politeness begets politeness and vice versa.

How's that go again?  An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind?  Something along those lines?

If you walk into a burning building with a flamethrower you're just going to make things worse, mate.  If you want to get things to settle down and have people treat you/your opinion with respect you don't walk in and start insulting people no matter what the tone of the argument was before your entrance.

That just makes things worse.

You know, like burning buildings and flamethrowers.

I really like that analogy so I feel the need to hammer it home a little.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 02:18 .

[Helios969]

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
 Tone down the 'I'm the smartest person in the room

But I am. 

Helios969 wrote...

 The only thing you need to know about dealing with me is that I respond accordingly - politeness begets politeness and vice versa.

How's that go again?  An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind?  Something along those lines?

If you walk into a burning building with a flamethrower you're just going to make things worse, mate.  If you want to get things to settle down and have people treat you/your opinion with respect you don't walk in and start insulting people no matter what the tone of the argument was before your entrance.

That just makes things worse.

You know, like burning buildings and flamethrowers.

I really like that analogy so I feel the need to hammer it home a little.

You're right of course -  if people are being condescending I should take the high road.  Difficult advice to follow though at times.

[Nhadalie]

Honestly. It depends on what character I'm playing as. My HNF would understand the politics of the situation, and she would understand Anora a lot better than say.. A dalish elf PC would. However, that wouldn't stop my HNF from stabbing Anora in the back subtly. (Promising her support before the landsmeet, then turning around and supporting Alistair instead.)



Anora has been raised to be logical and efficient. She and Cailen were engaged as children for god sake. She was raised to be queen, and raised to compliment him in that position. She was taught how to handle the technical aspects of the country. The laws, the nobility, etc. Cailen is/was the people person, and the military minded one. He handed that side of it, and Anora handled the other side.



It's quite possible that either Anora or Cailen is sterile. We can't really say which of them actually is. The letters from RtO suggest that Anora might be, but anyone familiar with history should realize that's not necessarily the case. People are more likely to blame lack of children on the woman than on the man. Because kings tend to take it as a personal insult on their masculinity.(Hell, look at King Henry the 8th and all of his wives who had daughters instead. Did anyone blame him for it? No.)



I neither dislike nor like Anora. She's one of those characters who does whatever she feels is necessary. As such, I respect her character for it. But most PCs simply wouldn't understand the situation so well. Unless they were either a human or dwarven noble. Otherwise, the PC doesn't have much experience with politics.

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
 Tone down the 'I'm the smartest person in the room

But I am. 

Helios969 wrote...

 The only thing you need to know about dealing with me is that I respond accordingly - politeness begets politeness and vice versa.

How's that go again?  An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind?  Something along those lines?

If you walk into a burning building with a flamethrower you're just going to make things worse, mate.  If you want to get things to settle down and have people treat you/your opinion with respect you don't walk in and start insulting people no matter what the tone of the argument was before your entrance.

That just makes things worse.

You know, like burning buildings and flamethrowers.

I really like that analogy so I feel the need to hammer it home a little.

You're right of course -  if people are being condescending I should take the high road.  Difficult advice to follow though at times.

I'm just going to assume that was in response to my assertion that I am, indeed, the smartest person in the room.

On some level I know it's not, but, as is often the case, I find it preferable for my enjoyment and ego to simply replace objective reality with my own.