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[Helios969]

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...
 Tone down the 'I'm the smartest person in the room

But I am. 

Helios969 wrote...

 The only thing you need to know about dealing with me is that I respond accordingly - politeness begets politeness and vice versa.

How's that go again?  An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind?  Something along those lines?

If you walk into a burning building with a flamethrower you're just going to make things worse, mate.  If you want to get things to settle down and have people treat you/your opinion with respect you don't walk in and start insulting people no matter what the tone of the argument was before your entrance.

That just makes things worse.

You know, like burning buildings and flamethrowers.

I really like that analogy so I feel the need to hammer it home a little.

You're right of course -  if people are being condescending I should take the high road.  Difficult advice to follow though at times.

I'm just going to assume that was in response to my assertion that I am, indeed, the smartest person in the room.

On some level I know it's not, but, as is often the case, I find it preferable for my enjoyment and ego to simply replace objective reality with my own.

Shhh, it'll be our little secret.

[Addai]

Helios969 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Careful ejoslin, the intellectual bullys will gang up on if you fail to agree that Anora is an evil and incompetant ruler with no redeemable qualities.  This argument has deteriorated beyond any rational middle ground.

Such comments are unhelpful, not to mention mistaken- it's been a good discussion.  If you can't maintain the same tone, I suggest you bow out.

Thanks, you managed to prove my point.  If you want to have a "good" discussion then refrain from attacking posters who disagree with your position.  Insulting posters by telling them they don't know what they're talking about or they should read a book or just how you have much more knowledge on the subject is more than a little condescending.  Someone has thrown around the word ignorant (you?) more than once in these discussions and it's quite inappropriate to belittle other posters. 

If you want make peace then lets do that.  Tone down the 'I'm the smartest person in the room and no one else has anything valid to offer' attitude.  The only thing you need to know about dealing with me is that I respond accordingly - politeness begets politeness and vice versa.

Not me.  In fact, it has been pro-Anora posters who have said such things by my count.  Regardless, if you have a problem with a specific participant, then flame that person specifically and let the rest of us get on with actually discussing the topic at hand. 

[mousestalker]

In my case, I am the smartest person in the room. There's just me and two cats. And while our cats are very good at being manipulative, they aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

[roundcrow]

@mousestalker - They just want you to think that....

[spottyblanket]

Isolde was meant to be sympathetic?  I must have totally missed that.  I read her as one of the most selfish NPC's in the game, right up there with Zathrian.

As in, her actions are drivenm by a mothers love. Which is far more comendable than Anoras actions. Oh don't get me wrong, I hate Isolde, I'm a straong Jowan fan. Ironically, the only time I actullay felt sorry for her was when she was forced to kill her own child. Everyone can argue about it, but that scene was quite heartbreaking.

[Maria Caliban]

Isolde meant to be selfish and to arouse sympathy. It's possible to have both of those attributes in a character.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 février 2010 - 04:21 .

[Alandros]

The whole Cauthrien has plenty of plausible and likely explanations, the least of which is Anora planned it. Why would she get the Warden captured and then plea to Eamon to get him/her rescued. On top of that she needs the Warden's support for her to get the throne, if she did that after the PC turned her down, sure maybe, but this makes no sense at all.



As far as plausible explanations. People have mentioned Anora's hand maiden as a possible spy, that's a plausible one. Anyone at Eamon's estate, such as the elven maid or any other maid, could be spying for Loghain or Howe. I'm sure any of them would pass on information for some easy money.



There's the simplest explanation also, that someone recognized the PC there. I mean the PC does do many things that would make them a memorable person (especially with your awkward combination of races depending on who you take with you). The simplest explanation is someone just recognized you and said something and they sent for Cauthrien. I mean your PC did slaughter everyone in the downstairs I would imagine someone might have overheard and sent a message out to get support.



All of those make a whole lot more sense than Anora.

[IanPolaris]

Your "explainations" do not hold up under analysis.  I will explain below:

Alandros wrote...

The whole Cauthrien has plenty of plausible and likely explanations, the least of which is Anora planned it. Why would she get the Warden captured and then plea to Eamon to get him/her rescued. On top of that she needs the Warden's support for her to get the throne, if she did that after the PC turned her down, sure maybe, but this makes no sense at all.

This has been explained.  Anora desperately needs a backup plan.  She needs to appeal to the PC Grey Warden while at the same time not burning bridges with her father.  The Ser Cauthrien setup does this splendidly especially if Queen Anora can take credit for organizing a rescue mission for the PC afterwords.  Ask Howe about Queen Anora.  During the final confrontation, Arl Howe has no reason to lie and indeed everything he says in that scene can be taken as the unvarnished truth (from his eyes anyway) since he is an arrogant bastard that believes you are about to die anyway (it's his chance to brag).

As far as plausible explanations. People have mentioned Anora's hand maiden as a possible spy, that's a plausible one. Anyone at Eamon's estate, such as the elven maid or any other maid, could be spying for Loghain or Howe. I'm sure any of them would pass on information for some easy money.

Erlina being a spy is indeed plausible but not for Logain.  Erlina is Orelsian or did you miss that?  Logain won't give any Orlesian the time of day or anything except the point of his sword by this point.  As for other spies, I've already shot this down too.  Arl Howe was clearly acting as Logain's spymaster.  The scene with Berick in Redcliff confirms this (as do many other scenes dealing with the 'silent game' such as Fedan).  If spies had figured out that the Grey Wardens were about to mount a rescue attempt Arl Howe would have been the first to know.  If there were spies like you suggest, then Arl Howe's men should have been ready to jump us.

They were not which means if there were Logain spies, they did not twig on this rescue attempt.  That means that the only people that could have told Ser Cautherian about Howe's murder in the time it took to make the confrontation happen when it did would be Queen Anora herself likely via her maid.

There's the simplest explanation also, that someone recognized the PC there. I mean the PC does do many things that would make them a memorable person (especially with your awkward combination of races depending on who you take with you). The simplest explanation is someone just recognized you and said something and they sent for Cauthrien. I mean your PC did slaughter everyone in the downstairs I would imagine someone might have overheard and sent a message out to get support.

All of those make a whole lot more sense than Anora.

Again totally false.  Play it through with disguises.  If you go in disguised, and go out through the Arl's Bedroom, the FIRST time the alarm is raised is when Ser Cauthrien tries to arrest you.

EIther Ser Cauthrien is psychic or the Queen is a double-crossing rat.  Pick one.  Those really are your only logical options.

-Polaris

[Helios969]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Isolde meant to be selfish and to arouse sympathy. It's possible to have both of those attributes in a character.

For all the wonderful writing in DAO, the writers failed to arouse even the least amount of sympathy (in me.)

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Isolde meant to be selfish and to arouse sympathy. It's possible to have both of those attributes in a character.

For all the wonderful writing in DAO, the writers failed to arouse even the least amount of sympathy (in me.)

And everyone else.

At least until you make her kill Connor.  I... I felt kinda bad then.

Still hated the witch, though.

[Helios969]

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Isolde meant to be selfish and to arouse sympathy. It's possible to have both of those attributes in a character.

For all the wonderful writing in DAO, the writers failed to arouse even the least amount of sympathy (in me.)

And everyone else.

At least until you make her kill Connor.  I... I felt kinda bad then.

Still hated the witch, though.

You're evil.

[spottyblanket]

I think its the accent. TEEGGAAAANNNN. Her voice grates on me. Hope everyone in Orlais doesn't have that annoying candlestick-y french accent

[RangerSG]

IanPolaris,



They do not hold up because you have your conclusion fixed as the only plausible one. For those of us who have not assumed a circular logic, it holds up nicely. It's entirely rational that someone--in a realm where heavily armored people draw notice, mages are terrifying, apostates nightmares to scare children and armed elves a rarity--who walks around with ALL of these in tow and then makes a firestorm in the dungeon of a castle WOULD draw lots of attention.



At that point, the sum total of your argument is a pathfinding choice that is, essentially, an arbitrary decision by a game designer. And given what most of us know about CRPG pathfinding, you're out on very thin ice.



Loghain is even still convinced at the Landmeet that the PC is using some sort of mental control on ANORA even. So any "Loghain says there was no danger" argument needs to be filtered through the many layers of his paranoia as well. And in any case, Loghain as we all know underestimates Howe and his duplicity at pretty much every turn.



There's no reason HE could not have had a guard sent back to Loghain when the raid on the dungeon starts with a message saying, "If the Warden emerges, they've killed me." Simple enough statement. He thinks he has a well-laid trap. But if he's going to go, make sure his enemy dies too. Inconsistent with Howe's character? Not at all.

[CalJones]

Anora is basically playing all the angles, as far as trying to get the Warden and Eamon on her side. She knows the Landsmeet can go either way. I doubtful that she is responsible for Ser Cauthrien turning up - there are quite a few explanations, such as witnesses/spies seeing the Warden heading for Howe's estate, and the big pile of dead guards left outside.

As for the maid, I'm actually curious as to why Loghain would allow an Orlesian so close to his daughter (even if it's an Orlesian elf). Were I him I'd immediately suspect she was a bard and have her executed.

[IanPolaris]

RangerSG wrote...

IanPolaris,

They do not hold up because you have your conclusion fixed as the only plausible one. For those of us who have not assumed a circular logic, it holds up nicely. It's entirely rational that someone--in a realm where heavily armored people draw notice, mages are terrifying, apostates nightmares to scare children and armed elves a rarity--who walks around with ALL of these in tow and then makes a firestorm in the dungeon of a castle WOULD draw lots of attention.

At that point, the sum total of your argument is a pathfinding choice that is, essentially, an arbitrary decision by a game designer. And given what most of us know about CRPG pathfinding, you're out on very thin ice.

You are wrong.  In fact you are blatently wrong.  Are you even playing the same game that the rest of us are?!?

If you come in, you can come in disquised as Arl Howe's own people, and there is no sign that any of them twig to your presence.  You make it sound like the PC must act like a bull in a china shop and that is simply untrue.  At no point is there any indication that ANY of Howe's people know anything is wrong until you actually get to the dungeon.

Now, Howe is a man of "questionable" tastes and it's well known that he likes to torture prisoners and the like.  Do you really think that some cries, and screams coming from the Dungeon is going to draw even a passing attention?  I think not.  Futhermore, you arrange it so that nobody can escape the dungeon without you killing them (the dungeon is set up specifically to make escape difficult but that makes it a death-trap for Arl Howe's men.

Futhermore there is absolutely no sign that any alert has been raised by Arl Howe's men until you get OUT of the Dungeon and if you exit via the Arl's bedroom, then the first time the Castle Guards know anything is wrong is when Ser Cauthrien shows up.

In short, you are wrong.

Loghain is even still convinced at the Landmeet that the PC is using some sort of mental control on ANORA even. So any "Loghain says there was no danger" argument needs to be filtered through the many layers of his paranoia as well. And in any case, Loghain as we all know underestimates Howe and his duplicity at pretty much every turn.

Talk to Howe about Queen Anora before you kill him then.  He confirms it.  Arl Howe at this point can be taken as gospel since he has absolutely no reason to lie (and indeed uses this opportunity to brag before supposedly killing you).  Also you just undercut any notion that Logain had spies in Arl Eamon's household that tipped him off.  You do realize that, yes?  If Logain had spies, he would NOT have stumbled that badly when discussing his daughter at the Landsmeet.

There's no reason HE could not have had a guard sent back to Loghain when the raid on the dungeon starts with a message saying, "If the Warden emerges, they've killed me." Simple enough statement. He thinks he has a well-laid trap. But if he's going to go, make sure his enemy dies too. Inconsistent with Howe's character? Not at all.

Except the PC never emerges from the castle.  GET IT NOW?  Ser Cauthrien is waiting inside the Castle Foyer, just (conveniently) after the PC has just rescued the queen when even the Arl's own men don't yet realize there has been a security breach.

Do you honestly think it wasn't a setup?  Set aside your obvious love affair with Anora and face reality.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

CalJones wrote...

Anora is basically playing all the angles, as far as trying to get the Warden and Eamon on her side. She knows the Landsmeet can go either way. I doubtful that she is responsible for Ser Cauthrien turning up - there are quite a few explanations, such as witnesses/spies seeing the Warden heading for Howe's estate, and the big pile of dead guards left outside.

Anora setting up the PCs is the only reasonable explaination that fits the facts and timing without resorting to metagaming, plot-holes, etc.  None of the other explainaions are consistant with the rest of the game.  Sorry, but they are not.

As for the maid, I'm actually curious as to why Loghain would allow an Orlesian so close to his daughter (even if it's an Orlesian elf). Were I him I'd immediately suspect she was a bard and have her executed.

What makes you think that Logain has a choice?  I sort of suspect (just my own personal suspicion) that Erlina was probably hired on as a bard by King Maric for his future daughter-in-law.  This would be a prime position for a bard and King Maric would know this.  If so, that makes Erlina untouchable at least for Logain.

-Polaris

[CalJones]

IanPolaris wrote...
If you come in, you can come in disquised as Arl Howe's own people, and there is no sign that any of them twig to your presence.  You make it sound like the PC must act like a bull in a china shop and that is simply untrue.  At no point is there any indication that ANY of Howe's people know anything is wrong until you actually get to the dungeon.

-Polaris

Once you get the disguises on, you can sneak through the entire upper level of the castle, no problem.
However, on the outside of the castle, just past the angry mob, there is a guard who spots you sneaking around and calls his men to come and deal with you. Now unless you have a full party of stealthers, I'm pretty sure you can't avoid this. (Let me know if I'm wrong - but on five playthroughs I've never been able to avoid killing those guards).
I'll make it clear that I'm not talking about the two guards Erlina distracts, but the ones you encounter on the other side of the estate, just before you get to the garden where Alistair tells his story about having to sleep with the hounds when he used to visit with Eamon.

[Reaverwind]

CalJones wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
If you come in, you can come in disquised as Arl Howe's own people, and there is no sign that any of them twig to your presence.  You make it sound like the PC must act like a bull in a china shop and that is simply untrue.  At no point is there any indication that ANY of Howe's people know anything is wrong until you actually get to the dungeon.

-Polaris

Once you get the disguises on, you can sneak through the entire upper level of the castle, no problem.
However, on the outside of the castle, just past the angry mob, there is a guard who spots you sneaking around and calls his men to come and deal with you. Now unless you have a full party of stealthers, I'm pretty sure you can't avoid this. (Let me know if I'm wrong - but on five playthroughs I've never been able to avoid killing those guards).

And dead men tell no tales.

[IanPolaris]

CalJones wrote...

Once you get the disguises on, you can sneak through the entire upper level of the castle, no problem.
However, on the outside of the castle, just past the angry mob, there is a guard who spots you sneaking around and calls his men to come and deal with you. Now unless you have a full party of stealthers, I'm pretty sure you can't avoid this. (Let me know if I'm wrong - but on five playthroughs I've never been able to avoid killing those guards).
I'll make it clear that I'm not talking about the two guards Erlina distracts, but the ones you encounter on the other side of the estate, just before you get to the garden where Alistair tells his story about having to sleep with the hounds when he used to visit with Eamon.

This is true, but as Paul Harvey would say, let's look at the rest of the story.  At least in all my playthroughs (especially if playing a high level bloodmage), Howe's patrol is wiped out literally in seconds and often before they even get a chance to do anything let alone raise the alarm.

This is confirmed when you get inside.  If the alert had been raised, you would have seen completely different behavoir inside the castle than you do. 

Sure eventually that patrol is going to be missed, but that was a patrol OUTSIDE the castle wall.  Given the ruckus outside, the most reasonable first guess would be that somebody took advantage of the chaos to "jump" an isolated patrol, and as such the first thing that the guard would so once the alert has been raised (which we know it has not been at least inside the castle) would be to search the outside grounds.

Clock it.  From the time that outside combat occures to the time you encouter Ser Cauthrien can be measured in minutes (certainly less than a half hour).  Futhermore, why would Howe's guards even if they WERE suspicious report to Ser Cauthrien (not even in their chain of command) and not their own captain of the guard?

No, I'm sorry, but IMHO you are grasping at straws.

-Polaris

Edit:  Heh, ninjaed by Reaverwind who made my point much more succintly.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 27 février 2010 - 12:18 .

[Addai]

I've never considered the conspiracy theory before, but it does have some logic. Why is Cauthrien and a large contingent of her guard even at Arl Howe's estate? I would assume she would be close to Loghain, thus at the palace? Perhaps the Warden was followed? I always thought it was odd that we could move around Denerim so easily. Yet if they were followed, they would not have been able to get in at all.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

I've never considered the conspiracy theory before, but it does have some logic. Why is Cauthrien and a large contingent of her guard even at Arl Howe's estate? I would assume she would be close to Loghain, thus at the palace? Perhaps the Warden was followed? I always thought it was odd that we could move around Denerim so easily. Yet if they were followed, they would not have been able to get in at all.

Exactly.  People forget that in Ferelden there is no such thing as instant communications (not even by magic if you read the Codex on the Rules of Magic).  Too many people just assume that communcations is instant which is basically true in real life but not in Fereldan.

Given that, with all due respect the Anora double-cross is the only theory that fits the facts and the limitations of the game world without engaging in plot-hole excuses or incredibly twisted reasoning.  If the Wardens had been shadowed by Cauthrien all along, then they should have been jumped and Howe's men (at least his senior ones) should have been on to you (esp given that Howe is Logain's spymaster and trusted by Logain).  Basically had that contigent jumped you when you faced Howe himself, then chances are that not only are the GWs killed/captured but Howe remains alive as well (and Logain clearly wants Howe alive).

His daughter, however, would clearly love to see Howe take a dirt-nap six feet deep.  Given that in addition to all the other advantages, I think it's reasonable to assume that Anora is in fact a double-crossing rat when it comes to her so-called rescue.

-Polaris

[CalJones]

I'm not saying it's implausible, but I don't think Anora would have much to gain from betraying you at that point. She is trying to get you on her side, after all.



There may actually not be a strong explanation for why it happened other than that's it's a game design decision. The designers obviously wanted a strong ending to the quest, which would either end in a huge fight or lead to the fun escape/rescue from Fort Drakon quest. Ser Cauthrien is a more important figure than some random Howe guard captain, even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as to why she happens to be there at that exact moment. Coincidence? Possibly. Or perhaps Loghain knew Anora had gone running to Howe and sent Ser Cauthrien there to retrieve her, unaware that the Warden would be there as well (with Cauthrien finding out about the Warden's killing spree once she arrived).



It would be interesting to get a Bioware perspective on this, but for now I'm going to go with the Anora retrieval theory.



We're all entitled to our own ideas and opinions, after all.

[IanPolaris]

CalJones wrote...

I'm not saying it's implausible, but I don't think Anora would have much to gain from betraying you at that point. She is trying to get you on her side, after all.

Is she?  I think she is trying to build a backup position in case you suceed in deposing her.   The only possible way her betrayer would backfire on her is if you (the GW) figure out that you set him (or her) up with Ser Cauthrien.  Otherwise it's a way of getting on your good side (since she  does set up your 'rescue') and does preserve her life (I am sure the orders to take the GWs alive came from ANORA and not Logain.  Remember that Logain already hired multiple assassins to try to kill you....what makes you think that if Logain sent Cauthrien, he wouldn't just tell her "Grey Wardens are under sentence of death.  Carry it out" and be done with it? 

I'm sorry, but I still contend the only thing that makes sense is if Anora (not Logain) arranged for Cauthrien to be there.  Otherwise Cauthriens orders (let alone timing) make no sense at all.

There may actually not be a strong explanation for why it happened other than that's it's a game design decision. The designers obviously wanted a strong ending to the quest, which would either end in a huge fight or lead to the fun escape/rescue from Fort Drakon quest. Ser Cauthrien is a more important figure than some random Howe guard captain, even though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense as to why she happens to be there at that exact moment. Coincidence? Possibly. Or perhaps Loghain knew Anora had gone running to Howe and sent Ser Cauthrien there to retrieve her, unaware that the Warden would be there as well (with Cauthrien finding out about the Warden's killing spree once she arrived).

Not buying it.  Given the choice between a theory that fits the facts AND the limitations of the game world, and one that requires "lazy writing", I'll take the former every time.  Right now, I'd say the circumstantial evidence is both clear and damning towards Anora.

It would be interesting to get a Bioware perspective on this, but for now I'm going to go with the Anora retrieval theory.

We're all entitled to our own ideas and opinions, after all.

Obviously you will continue to believe what you believe, but I still don't think it fits the facts as laid out in the game.

-Polaris

[Thor Rand Al]

CalJones wrote...
Once you get the disguises on, you can sneak through the entire upper level of the castle, no problem.
However, on the outside of the castle, just past the angry mob, there is a guard who spots you sneaking around and calls his men to come and deal with you. Now unless you have a full party of stealthers, I'm pretty sure you can't avoid this. (Let me know if I'm wrong - but on five playthroughs I've never been able to avoid killing those guards).
I'll make it clear that I'm not talking about the two guards Erlina distracts, but the ones you encounter on the other side of the estate, just before you get to the garden where Alistair tells his story about having to sleep with the hounds when he used to visit with Eamon.

You can actually avoid this.  I've only been able to do this twice out of playing multiple times lol.  1 way is to very carefully use the shadows n take each companion 1 by 1 until you get behind the building around the corner.  It's a pain but I've managed it lol. 

[KendallX23]

i don't know...i for one belive Cauthrien beeing there is not Anora's doing.I mean what is the common factor in all these...her maid.How do we know she is all that loyal to the Queen ?I mean..when she distracts the guards and leads them away so u can enter...who's to say she didn't whisper to them to bring armies.ANd Cauthrien would be around since it is not hard to imagine that Loghain or Howe would think Eamon's allies might come for Anora.You'd ask why would Loghain take the Wardens alive..but then again..Riordan was kept alive wasn't he ??

I am saying u are too quick too asume the maid is not playing for more sides..