515 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

KendallX23 wrote...

i don't know...i for one belive Cauthrien beeing there is not Anora's doing.I mean what is the common factor in all these...her maid.How do we know she is all that loyal to the Queen ?I mean..when she distracts the guards and leads them away so u can enter...who's to say she didn't whisper to them to bring armies.ANd Cauthrien would be around since it is not hard to imagine that Loghain or Howe would think Eamon's allies might come for Anora.You'd ask why would Loghain take the Wardens alive..but then again..Riordan was kept alive wasn't he ??
I am saying u are too quick too asume the maid is not playing for more sides..

Let's apply some simple deductive reasoning.  I think we all can take it as a given that Erlina is more than a simple maid.  That so, who is she working for?

Arl Howe?  Not a chance.  If Erlina were working for Arl Howe, then the Wardens should have been walking into a trap and would have had to face Cauthrien's Men, Arl Howe, and his guard force (including several powerful mages) all at once the moment they broke into the castle.  Since that doesn't happen, we can take it as a given that Erlina is not working for Arl Howe.

Logain?  Erlina is Orlesian.  That alone should be enough to eliminate any possibility that Erlina is working for Logain.  In addition, remember that Logain has already tried to kill your Warden PC an Alistair several times by grossly extrajudicial means including at least two (known) assassination attempts.  His own ambassador to the Dwarves also insists that the Dwarves kill your Warden PC (and failing that tries to do the job himself).  This is also not only grossly extra-legal but in gross violation of diplomatic norms as the Dwarves remind Imrik.  Given all of that and given Cauthrien's explicit orders to take the Wardens alive without a care about the queen at all, tells us right there that there is no way that Erlina is working for Logain (even if Logain would deal with an Orlesian other than swordpoint at all and we all know he won't).  Arl Howe might be willing to work with an Orlesian turncoat (but see above why this makes no sense) but not Logain.

Arl Eamon?  Again, I don't see that either for what should be obvious reasons.

There is only one logical conclusion to be drawn.  Erlina is indeed working for the queen and she is a doublecrossing rat that set up the warden from the start.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  It's worth noting that Riorden was kept alive by Arl Howe quite possibly sans the direct knowledge of Logain (that part is unclear).  Regardless as a Warden from Jader, Riorden doesn't represent the dire threat to Logain's (and Howe's) power that your PC warden does.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 28 février 2010 - 10:12 .

[spottyblanket]

I certainly think Anora is one of the most beautiful characters. Her colour scheme and expression has been chosen well, she is the ultimate ice queen.

[nos_astra]

My point would be if anyone besides Anora would have known that the Warden at Howe's estate why wouldn't they alarm Howe's men and Howe himself instead letting them die at our hands completely unaware of your presence until the very last moment?

Why would anyone run across Denerim to inform Loghain and Cauthrien instead of alarming Howe? That doesn't make any sense.

Modifié par klarabella, 28 février 2010 - 11:26 .

[CalJones]

Yes, that's why I am more inclined to think that Ser Cauthrien is either there to collect Anora, or the Warden's party has been spotted by spies whilst en route to Howe's estate. Polaris makes some good arguments but I still can't see why Anora would arrange for you to be arrested when she is trying to get you on her side - doing so for the sole reason of arranging a rescue is, in my mind, a bit of a stretch, even for someone like Anora who plays all the angles.



Regarding keeping Riordan alive, Howe was torturing him for information. Whether he passed that on to Loghain or not, I don't know, but it seems likely that he would given that Riordan's not just a warden, but a warden from Orlais.

As for capturing the Warden and Alistair alive, this could have been done for the same purpose (interrogation). Or it could be because Loghain wants to make a spectacle of their deaths. At this point in the game his support is starting to crumble and people are asking questions. Bumping off the Warden quietly would gain him nothing, save to remove a particularly irritating thorn in his side. Executing them as traitors, however, would make a pretty dramatic statement.

On the other hand, since Loghain is a man of a thousand contingency plans, he could just want to keep the wardens locked up and out of the way, but alive, just in case the whole thing about needing a warden to kill the archdemon turns out to be true. I'm thinking not, though, since he doesn't seem to believe that at this point in the game.

Anyway, that's enough theories and speculation for one post.

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
Yes, that's why I am more inclined to think that Ser Cauthrien is either there to collect Anora, or the Warden's party has been spotted by spies whilst en route to Howe's estate. Polaris makes some good arguments but I still can't see why Anora would arrange for you to be arrested when she is trying to get you on her side - doing so for the sole reason of arranging a rescue is, in my mind, a bit of a stretch, even for someone like Anora who plays all the angles.

If the Warden's party had been spotted by spies why wouldn't they alarm Howe? The Warden is at Howe's estate, so Howe is in danger and Anora may be in danger. Why would someone who's working for Loghain run off and not tell Howe's men? It's the easiest way to stop the Warden or at least slow him/her down.

If Cauthrien is there to collect Anora how does she know Howe is dead? She's at the main entrance, Howe's body at the dungeon, she's there to arrest the warden for murder. Why would she through you into jail instead of executing you on the spot?

Modifié par klarabella, 28 février 2010 - 01:08 .

[Maria Caliban]

I like Anora, but I don't think she's smart enough to come up with and carry out this elaborate a plan.

[Murphys_Law]

If you are a woman, that is smart, tactical, and makes the best decisions to advance your own power you are a ice queen.

If you are a man, that is smart, tactical, and makes the best decisions to advance your own power you are a strong leader.

Such is the way of our society and do not fool yourself into thinking we are long passed this type of thinking.

[Maria13]

Conversely, if you are a man, who is geeky, tongue-tied, emotional and sexually inexperienced; you are a whiny child.



Agreed society thinks in shorthand.

[mousestalker]

klarabella wrote...

CalJones wrote...
Yes, that's why I am more inclined to think that Ser Cauthrien is either there to collect Anora, or the Warden's party has been spotted by spies whilst en route to Howe's estate. Polaris makes some good arguments but I still can't see why Anora would arrange for you to be arrested when she is trying to get you on her side - doing so for the sole reason of arranging a rescue is, in my mind, a bit of a stretch, even for someone like Anora who plays all the angles.

If the Warden's party had been spotted by spies why wouldn't they alarm Howe? The Warden is at Howe's estate, so Howe is in danger and Anora may be in danger. Why would someone who's working for Loghain run off and not tell Howe's men? It's the easiest way to stop the Warden or at least slow him/her down.

If Cauthrien is there to collect Anora how does she know Howe is dead? She's at the main entrance, Howe's body at the dungeon, she's there to arrest the warden for murder. Why would she through you into jail instead of executing you on the spot?

If I'm Loghain, Arl Howe isn't my only spymaster. He's the cut out. He's the fall guy. But he isn't my only source of information. 

[KendallX23]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I like Anora, but I don't think she's smart enough to come up with and carry out this elaborate a plan.

Well she is the daughter of the man who had planned a coup of Ferelden...i think she is smart enough...
    
        As for the maid...why not work for Howe ?What would look more convincing..catching two Wardens or catching two grey wardens trying to kidnap the Queen ?they would have witnesses too...i don't see Anora playing on two sides when working with the wardens is far more rewarding then working with her own father who took over the kingdom...(yea i know she betrays u if u tell Cauthrien u are there to rescue her..but she has a reason there)

[errant_knight]

I really hadn't thought about why Ser Cautherin in there. It is kind of odd, isn't it? I suppose it's possible that in the time I fought all the knights and dogs, on emerging from the dungeon, someone discovered the bodies, realized there was a battle in the hall, and sent a messenger off to Loghain. No time for them to get to Ser Cautherine, and for the group to return, though. That would have to mean that Ser Cautherine was already there for another reason, or nearby.



Hmm.... You'd think Anora's maid would have noticed Ser Cautherine and her knights clanking around the halls.... On the other hand, she'd been at Arl Eamon's, and the story implies that you go directly from there to the rescue attempt. It's possible she didn't know that Ser Cautherine was around.



Ser Cautherine could have been there to collect Riordan or, more likely, the Grey Warden documents. Loghain would be interested in those, as suspicious of the wardens as he is. Or Loghain could have found out that Anora was there, and been pissed off enough to send Ser Cautherine to get her back. I'm not a fan of Loghain, but I don't believe for a minute that he would let harm come to Anora. I think that possibility was part of a manipulation attempt by Anora. Worked n most of my playthroughs, too. My PCs distrust Loghain enough to believe her. It's equally possible that Loghain had no part in her imprisonment, sent Ser Cautherine to the rescue, but Anora didn't know that.



That last scenario seems as likely as any of the others. I don't really see how the plan would benefit Anora if it was a trap for the warden and/or Alistair.

[IanPolaris]

I still see some of you are contorting yourselves into logical prezles in order to somehow justify to yourselves that Anora did not set up the Wardens with Cauthrien.

Again, it makes no sense.  The most reasonable arguement seems to be this:  If she were trying to get on the good side of the wardens why arrange for their capture just to arrange their rescue....to convoluted.

What the above arguement misses is that I don't believe that Anora does think her father will lose.  Look at it from her PoV.  Since when does Logain anytime in his life lose any battle or any political contest?  He doesn't!

However, Anora sees the Wardens gathering this huge army, definately wants Howe to take a dirt-nap, and sees the possibility....possibility mind you....that her father may actually lose.

So what does she do?  She hurriedly constructs a backup plan to insure that she stays on the throne no matter what.  Look it it from her perspective again:  Ratting out the PCs to Ser Cauthrien is full of win for Anora:

1.  She gets rid of Howe who she despises and who she believes is a bad influence on her father.
2.  She endears herself to Arl Eamon and the Grey Wardens making so that even if the Wardens somehow succeed, that doofus (in her eyes) Alistair won't automatically usurp her throne.
3.  She preserves ties with her father in case he does win (which IMHO she still believes he will).

Basically having Anora go to Arl Eamon's estate and tell the Arl where the Wardens likely costs Anora nothing.  If the rescue attempt suceeds, she gets the credit.  If it fails, she is still in her father's good graces, the Arl is now doubly humiliated and likely executed after the Landsmeet and she still looks the hero.

As for the planning, I strongly suspect that Erlina is doing most of the legwork and planning on this operation.  The more I think about it, the more I suspect she is an Orlesian bard in service to Anora.

The problem is that no other explaination actually makes sense unless you are willing to overlook massive logical plotholes.  The "Anora is a double-crossing rat' explaination for Ser Cauthriens incredibly timely arrival is far and away the simpliest answer and thus very, very likely the correct one.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

KendallX23 wrote...
 

Maria Caliban wrote...

I like Anora, but I don't think she's smart enough to come up with and carry out this elaborate a plan.

Well she is the daughter of the man who had planned a coup of Ferelden...i think she is smart enough...
    
        As for the maid...why not work for Howe ?What would look more convincing..catching two Wardens or catching two grey wardens trying to kidnap the Queen ?they would have witnesses too...i don't see Anora playing on two sides when working with the wardens is far more rewarding then working with her own father who took over the kingdom...(yea i know she betrays u if u tell Cauthrien u are there to rescue her..but she has a reason there)

Why not work for Howe?  Because it makes no sense that's why.  Oh it;'s certainly within reason that Howe might have planted a maid within Anora's inner circle to work for him, but that being so, then Howe should have been the first to know that a rescue attempt was underway and that means that you should have faced an army when you finally faced Howe at best.  

That, however, is not what happens.  Howe is apparently unaware of your presence until you barge into his playtime in his dungeon.

As for Logain having another spymaster, I am going to call bolloxs on that.  While Logain might have multiple sources of information, it's quite clear that Arl Howe is not a cut-out, but rather a highly trusted high-nobleman in Logain's administration.  He's even called "Logain's right hand man".  If you go through the rest of the game, all the other aspects of espionage done by Logain (Fedan, Zev, Bandits at Orzamar, Spy at Redcliff) are all done via Howe's direct instruction and auspicous.  So you want me to believe that somehow this would be different?

Not hardly.  If Logain's spies had twigged on a rescue attempt by the wardens of Anora, Arl Howe should have been the first to know.

As it is someone had to tell Ser Cauthrien that Arl Howe was dead, and that information had to somehow reach her WITHOUT it reaching the Arl's own men and in time for her to intercept you before you even leave the castle.

There is only one possible source for that very specific information in this very short period of time:  Queen Anora herself.

-Polaris

[Xandurpein]

Has anyone considered the fact that this is an minor palace in the middle of Denerim. The player is basically slaughtering his/her way through several floors of Howe's soldiers. It is perfectly possible that some servant flees the palace and alerts the city guard. This could account for Ser Cauthrien's arrival as well as the fact that she already have a fair idea that someone is there to slaughter Howe.



Also, if Anora's money is on Loghain, why does she flee to Eamon's estate even if the player is imprisoned? Why does she call for a rescue of the player (and NOT betray the rescuers)?

[IanPolaris]

Xandurpein wrote...

Has anyone considered the fact that this is an minor palace in the middle of Denerim. The player is basically slaughtering his/her way through several floors of Howe's soldiers. It is perfectly possible that some servant flees the palace and alerts the city guard. This could account for Ser Cauthrien's arrival as well as the fact that she already have a fair idea that someone is there to slaughter Howe.

FALSE.  This is not what is happening.  If you use the disguises (and you get a big XP boost if you do), then you walk through Arl Howe's castle as though nothing is wrong.  The first time anybody twigs to your presence is when yoiu first enter the dungeon, and you should look at the design of that dungeon.  It's a death-trap for Arl Howe's men.  It's a great design for keeping prisoner's from escaping, but it's terrible for keeping Arl Howe's men alive.  At no time is there any indication that you let a single man escapte to tell the tale from inside the dungeon (other than those who will definately not raise the along...i.e. ex-prisoners).

Furthermore, if you go back up through the Arl's Bedroom, you encounter zero guardsment all the way up until and after you actually rescue the queen.  This is AFTER you kill Arl Howe by the way.

The FIRST time the castle is alerted is when Ser Cauthrien tries to arrest you.

Bull.  The only reasonable explaination for that sort of timing with that very specific information is if someone told Ser Cauthrien to be there, and the only one that could do that in the time allotted is......Queen Anora.

Also, if Anora's money is on Loghain, why does she flee to Eamon's estate even if the player is imprisoned? Why does she call for a rescue of the player (and NOT betray the rescuers)?

Her money is not entirely on Loghain.  She is covering her bases.  Her going to Arl Eamon's estate costs her nothing but gives her a strong backup plan in case her father fails.  If the Arl's rescue attempt fails, Anora is blameless.  If it suceeds, she looks good to the Grey Wardens while still maining plausible deniability (she was 'kidnapped by Arl Eamon').  Loghain clearly falls for it.  The point is that by covering her bases, Anora makes sure that Anora is taken care of, and IMHO that's the extent to her reasoning.

-Polaris

[Xandurpein]

You know. I still think you read too much into things. It's a game not a crime scene. There could be noise from the dungeon heard, commotion, anything to alert somebody. I'm not saying it couldn't be what you say, and it's an interesting idea.



I'm don't really think that Loghain honestly belives that Eamon/Warden have kidnapped Anora. For all his faults Loghain loves his daughter. If he truly believed that the player had kidnapped Anora he would not sound like that during the Landsmeet. He would have brought up Anora himself and raged about how the player had abducted his daughter and the queen at the top of his lungs. What you see at the Landsmeet sounds more like a man trying to dismiss Anora.

[Ahisgewaya]

Elfseeker wrote...

First of all, one thing ought to appear evident; Their time is not our time. A LOT of things goes into that idea.
'concubines' is all but expected, rulers had much less privacy and personal influence on their people and thus needed much better control of themselves, and a few other things I can't think of right now. Essentially it's ludicrous to judge them by our standards.

I get so tired of this excuse. The past is always judged by the standards of the present. If we don't do this, if we don't judge them, we will repeat every monstrous thing that our ancestors did. And yes, every one of us has ancestors who did some monstrous things.

[Herr Uhl]

Maria13 wrote...

Conversely, if you are a man, who is geeky, tongue-tied, emotional and sexually inexperienced; you are a whiny child.

Agreed society thinks in shorthand.

I thought this was true for both genders, odd.

[Xandurpein]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Elfseeker wrote...

First of all, one thing ought to appear evident; Their time is not our time. A LOT of things goes into that idea.
'concubines' is all but expected, rulers had much less privacy and personal influence on their people and thus needed much better control of themselves, and a few other things I can't think of right now. Essentially it's ludicrous to judge them by our standards.

I get so tired of this excuse. The past is always judged by the standards of the present. If we don't do this, if we don't judge them, we will repeat every monstrous thing that our ancestors did. And yes, every one of us has ancestors who did some monstrous things.

By your rules even Alistair is an evil bastard who shackle Fereldan under him if he becomes King, and deprives the people of a participating democracy. Simply saying that everybody who lived in the Middle Ages and where not slaves where all evil, really doesn't help understand anything.

Please try and belive that there are rational persons here who can argue about roleplaying someone living in a Medieval Kingdom without themselves promoting those values in real life. If you enjoy roleplaying, then maybe trying to get into the
role of someone from a Medieval society isn't so strange. If not, why do you play a game set in a Medieval world in the first place?

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 mars 2010 - 12:44 .

[Ahisgewaya]

It's not entirely in a medieval world though, is it? I mean you have mages and Qunari and elves.



What is right is and always has been and always will be what is right. And since you inadvertantly asked, yes I do beleive that all kings are evil. Including Alistair if he is king. This is why we have constant revolutions, it's also why people deemed "rabble rousers" are put to death. Slavery is wrong, no matter the time period or world or whatever.



I play role playing games to slay dragons. And slavery is one of the most evil and demented of these dragons.

[Xandurpein]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

It's not entirely in a medieval world though, is it? I mean you have mages and Qunari and elves.

What is right is and always has been and always will be what is right. And since you inadvertantly asked, yes I do beleive that all kings are evil. Including Alistair if he is king. This is why we have constant revolutions, it's also why people deemed "rabble rousers" are put to death. Slavery is wrong, no matter the time period or world or whatever.

I play role playing games to slay dragons. And slavery is one of the most evil and demented of these dragons.

What is right is something that have always changed with the society. What was considered right and true in one age is considered barbaric in another. There simply is no scientific method of determining an absolute moral right or wrong. There are some moral codes that seem to be inborn in humanity as a result of evolution, but that is not the same as saying that it is by definition an absolute right. The only way you can find any foundation for an 'eternal' definition of what is right is if you subscribe to one of the many religions in this world. Most of those who have been around for longer than a century or so have had time to change it's views on a surprising number of topics though, and none of them are represented in Thedas.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 01 mars 2010 - 01:08 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Let's see you go outside and shout in the streets "slavery is right and good if you live in the 18th century!"

See what happens. I see you're one of those who beleives right is based upon society and that there is no fundamental good. In that case, have fun in your depression filled search for meaning.
That line of reasoning is fine for lower animals. Once you reach the stage where you can think about what you're doing you have to stop thinking that way. Otherwise we may as well go back to raping each other to mate and ripping our children's faces off like certain chimpanzees.

For the rest of us it isn't a big stretch to say "mothers eating their children is evil".
Or "people can't own people".

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 01 mars 2010 - 01:15 .

[Kenrae]

We are all children of our time. I thought that was evident enough to everybody, but I see that's not the case.

[Ahisgewaya]

Was Ghandi a child of his time?
What about Rosa Parks?

It just takes one person with the balls to say "this is wrong" and their time becomes changed forever.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 01 mars 2010 - 05:25 .

[Ahisgewaya]

And yeah, I guess Martin Luther King Jr. should have just sat back and said "it's just the times".