515 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahisgewaya]

Be more than your time, or join the other animals in their own filth.

[mousestalker]

Kewl.We've moved from 'Anora is the ice queen' to Relativistic Ethics.



+100

[Xandurpein]

I am a child of my time as much as you are, so of course I find slavery repugnant. And of course there are great people who manage to change the world into what I consider to be a better place. Isn't that sort of obvious if you accept that morals change over time, that it will change?Just as I believe some things we take for granted today, may be considered horrible in the future.



I just fail to see why those of us who believe that there is no absolute morality should be doomed to find life meaningless. I know many religious persons often claim that those who don't believe must be doomed to meaningless life, but I've seen no evidence to suggest empiricists live less meaningful life than absolutists. Anymore that I accept that knowing that there is no absolute morality means that you cannot dedicate your life to change society. But this is derailing the thread I guess.

[Gabey5]

I wouldnt put her on the throne for these reasons

1.She is too unpredictable...what is to say she doesnt kill me once she gets the throne later on?

2. I could easily put my puppet or friend and rule the nation the way i want to

3. i just dont like her..her epilogues arent good either

[IanPolaris]

Xandurpein wrote...

You know. I still think you read too much into things. It's a game not a crime scene. There could be noise from the dungeon heard, commotion, anything to alert somebody. I'm not saying it couldn't be what you say, and it's an interesting idea.

Noise from Arl Howe's dungeon including sounds of metal and metal and the sounds of screams are almost certainly an everyday occurance.  Arl Howe is not a nice man.  Think about it.

Also I am not talking about a scene from CSI.  I am talking simple logic.  Until you meet Ser Cauthrien's soldiers (assuming you used disguises) not one person (that gets away and lives anyway) knows who are are other than Anora and her maid.  Given that, Ser Cauthrien's timing is simply impossible unless Anora betrayed you.

Ferelden may not be exactly midaeval Europe because of magic, but the Cardinal Rules of Magic (see Codex) make it very plain that instant communications 20th and 21st century style are not possible with magic.

I'm don't really think that Loghain honestly belives that Eamon/Warden have kidnapped Anora. For all his faults Loghain loves his daughter. If he truly believed that the player had kidnapped Anora he would not sound like that during the Landsmeet. He would have brought up Anora himself and raged about how the player had abducted his daughter and the queen at the top of his lungs. What you see at the Landsmeet sounds more like a man trying to dismiss Anora.

Actually he does exactly this and winds up putting his foot into his mouth big-time in the landsmeet when Anora shows up.  Logain would not have done this had he known where Anora was because it made him look like a fool at the Landsmeet.

-Polaris

[Alandros]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

You know. I still think you read too much into things. It's a game not a crime scene. There could be noise from the dungeon heard, commotion, anything to alert somebody. I'm not saying it couldn't be what you say, and it's an interesting idea.

Noise from Arl Howe's dungeon including sounds of metal and metal and the sounds of screams are almost certainly an everyday occurance.  Arl Howe is not a nice man.  Think about it.

Also I am not talking about a scene from CSI.  I am talking simple logic.  Until you meet Ser Cauthrien's soldiers (assuming you used disguises) not one person (that gets away and lives anyway) knows who are are other than Anora and her maid.  Given that, Ser Cauthrien's timing is simply impossible unless Anora betrayed you.

Ferelden may not be exactly midaeval Europe because of magic, but the Cardinal Rules of Magic (see Codex) make it very plain that instant communications 20th and 21st century style are not possible with magic.

I'm don't really think that Loghain honestly belives that Eamon/Warden have kidnapped Anora. For all his faults Loghain loves his daughter. If he truly believed that the player had kidnapped Anora he would not sound like that during the Landsmeet. He would have brought up Anora himself and raged about how the player had abducted his daughter and the queen at the top of his lungs. What you see at the Landsmeet sounds more like a man trying to dismiss Anora.

Actually he does exactly this and winds up putting his foot into his mouth big-time in the landsmeet when Anora shows up.  Logain would not have done this had he known where Anora was because it made him look like a fool at the Landsmeet.

-Polaris

It simply comes down to agreeing to disagree.  I do not agree with a lot of your "logical" conclusions.  Not everyone has to agree though.  Just because you find that as logical it does not mean that others agree with your assertions of logic.  I personally find that logically it's the opposite.  That for her to get you to come rescue her and get you captured is far too high of a risk, you could easily be killed before she can save you and then it defeats the entire purpose of getting you involved at all since she has to side with her father (which she obviously sees as the less preferred route).

Nothing you have said eliminates multiple other possibilities.  The simplest being that:

1) There's a spy in Eamon's estate. If Loghain + Howe went to the lengths of poisoning him with a spy mage I would suspect that they would have at least one (if not more) servant spies that just get information.  If they didn't then I would be extremely surprised and would consider that a hole.

2) Someone recognized any of your characters.  Just because you put on a guard uniform doesn't mean people can't recognize you and with the reputation your characters have they could very feasibly decide to get reinforcements rather than going of to their own death.

There really is no way to confirm or deny those options and they are easily feasible.  While Anora getting rescued to just potentially not escape (there's no way she could know she would slip out) and getting you killed and losing her only shot at the crown just doesn't seem very likely in my opinion.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Alandros]

(double post)

Modifié par Alandros, 01 mars 2010 - 09:23 .

[IanPolaris]

Alandros wrote...

It simply comes down to agreeing to disagree.  I do not agree with a lot of your "logical" conclusions.  Not everyone has to agree though.  Just because you find that as logical it does not mean that others agree with your assertions of logic.  I personally find that logically it's the opposite.  That for her to get you to come rescue her and get you captured is far too high of a risk, you could easily be killed before she can save you and then it defeats the entire purpose of getting you involved at all since she has to side with her father (which she obviously sees as the less preferred route).

Sorry but it doesn't.  Unless you are willing to accept plot-holes big enough to drive a truck through, the only logical conclusion is that Anora betrayed you.  It is my opinion of course, but it's opinion based on FACT.

Nothing you have said eliminates multiple other possibilities.  The simplest being that:

1) There's a spy in Eamon's estate. If Loghain + Howe went to the lengths of poisoning him with a spy mage I would suspect that they would have at least one (if not more) servant spies that just get information.  If they didn't then I would be extremely surprised and would consider that a hole.

Arl Howe was Logain's spymaster.  If there were a spy in the Eamon household, and he or she did find out about the rescue attempt, Arl Howe would have been the first to know.  In short the very timing of Ser Cauthrien's arrival and the fact that Howe's own men don't know what's up completely debunks this assertion/theory.

2) Someone recognized any of your characters.  Just because you put on a guard uniform doesn't mean people can't recognize you and with the reputation your characters have they could very feasibly decide to get reinforcements rather than going of to their own death.

Rubbish.  If someone in the castle did recognize you, they would run to the Capt of the Guard and/or nearest Guard Officer, and the Hew and Cry in the Castle would be raised (and in fact this can happen if you stumble a couple of places in the castle).  They would NOT run halfway across Denerim to grab Ser Cauthrien, and even if they did, Ser Cauthrien would not know that you in fact killed Arl Howe indeed if she could even get to the Foyer in time to intercept you which seems highly unlikely.

There really is no way to confirm or deny those options and they are easily feasible.  While Anora getting rescued to just potentially not escape (there's no way she could know she would slip out) and getting you killed and losing her only shot at the crown just doesn't seem very likely in my opinion.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes there is.  You simply don't want to accept what the FACTS tell you.  The SIMPLE FACT of the matter is there is only one person with the methode, opportunity, and possible motive to allow Ser Cauthrien to arrive when she does with the information that she has and that ONE person is Queen Anora.  As for risking the Warden, from Anora's perspective it's not a big risk.  Anora is in no danger (confirmed later by Logain) and Anora is smart enough to know this.  If the Warden's suceed, then Anora wins.  If the Wardens get killed in the attempt, then a major (indeed only real) source of opposition to her father (and her own throne) is removed.....and Anora still wins.  From Anora's perspective, arranging the attempt by the Wardens and then ratting them out is all upside with almost no downside.  The only possible downside is if the Warden is cunning enough to recognize the trap for what it is...which is unlikely given how many posters here can't see it.

-Polaris

[Ahisgewaya]

Xandurpein wrote...

I just fail to see why those of us who believe that there is no absolute morality should be doomed to find life meaningless. I know many religious persons often claim that those who don't believe must be doomed to meaningless life, but I've seen no evidence to suggest empiricists live less meaningful life than absolutists. Anymore that I accept that knowing that there is no absolute morality means that you cannot dedicate your life to change society. But this is derailing the thread I guess.

I just don't understand not having an absolute morality. Even if you don't beleive in a god (and I don't in the traditional sense) why don't you make up you own morality? What is it you value? And if you value nothing then that seems meaningless to me. But then you said you would dedicate your life to changing society, so you clearly beleive in some sort of morality.

Surely you at least think baby eating should be avoided though, eh?

I personally am not sure there is some universal mystical thing that says "this is evil".
But what does that matter? I'm still going to do my utmost to stop slavery and baby eating and things like that. It's wrong, and not just because society says so.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 01 mars 2010 - 11:23 .

[Mirthadrond]

I'm going in favor of "IanPolaris" - I've no doubt in my mind that the whole 'rescue the queen' was a setup, from the get go.



My PC suspected it the moment the handmaiden showed up at Eamon's Estate. He even questioned Eamon about it, but as Eamon pointed out, trap or no trap, I had little choice but to go and try to save her.



Ser Cauthrine 'conveniently' showing up at the door with a truck load of guards, and 'arresting me for the murder of Howe', just a few minutes 'after' I've actually killed him, when nobody in the castle would have known save myself, my party members and Anora.



Then: I try explaining myself: Anora rats you out.

Or: I surrender and Anora magically slips away unnoticed by a seasoned vet like Ser Cauthrine??



As if Ser Cauthrine wouldn't notice Anora standing behind you in a guard uniform, with her maid servant??



Anora needed to be free, and she was willing to sacrifice you in the process. She knew Cauthrine wouldn't touch her even if she was discovered.



On top of that, it was a means to remove you and Alister from threatening her throne.



She just didn't realize how 'ridiculous awesome' you actually were until you escape the prison, or defeat Ser Cauthrine and all her guards.



From this point, she has no choice but to gain your support, or condemn you in front of the landsmeet.



I was always willing to secure her throne, since Alister - even hardened, doesn't really want it, until she tried to stab me in the back.

Now - she either rules with Alister, or Alister rules with my PC or alone.



I don't think that makes her an ICE QUEEN, but it does make her a very shrewd politician.

[Demx]

Anora whines too much for me.

[Drasanil]

I wish there was an option to have Dog leave a putrid half-eaten hare in Anora's unmentionables while she was staying at Eamon's estate.

[KendallX23]

when exactly does Anora whine ?She seems quite calm given the situation...can u compare her to Alistair then ?

Polaris....does it seem to u that Loghain would give back Anora the throne...?And Anora wants to be queen very much...the warden can make that happen...i'm just sayin

[IanPolaris]

KendallX23 wrote...

when exactly does Anora whine ?She seems quite calm given the situation...can u compare her to Alistair then ?
Polaris....does it seem to u that Loghain would give back Anora the throne...?And Anora wants to be queen very much...the warden can make that happen...i'm just sayin

If you take Logain in the party talk to him.  Logain never took the throne from Anora in the first place.  What he did was seize military control in wake of Ostagar with his own daughter's consent and approval no less.  At no time did Logain take the throne from Anora and in fact she made more decisions than is commonly let on.

Yes much of this if from Logain once you get him as a partymember, but he doesn't have any reason to lie to you anymore at this point.

-Polaris

[KendallX23]

hmm..i never let Loghain live till now..i don't like him for some reason..even though i dislike whiny Alistair...

Ok..now that would make sense... what u say.Still..Anora still is one of my favourite NPCs...

[Thalorin1919]

KendallX23 wrote...

when exactly does Anora whine ?She seems quite calm given the situation...can u compare her to Alistair then ?
Polaris....does it seem to u that Loghain would give back Anora the throne...?And Anora wants to be queen very much...the warden can make that happen...i'm just sayin

Anora doesnt exactly whine. She is very smart, but also a backstabber. She is willing to betray her father for the throne, or betray the warden for the throne. I couldnt bring myself to do that, nor do I think could alot of people.

She was calm cause she knew she would live. Polaris already explained this I think. But either the Warden would die, and that would pin her father down, or the warden would live and she thought the warden would support her. Both win and win.

Loghain took over as Regent. Basically assuming all military command of Ferelden to fight the blight. Anora didnt really have a say, even though she held the throne. But you cant have a Queen and a Regent at once, this will call for conflict. Which is why the ciivl war started.

[KendallX23]

well i never given her the chance to betray me in any playthrough..i cover for her when she escapes and lie to her that i will support her as a Queen so i could get her help in the Landsmeet..she is not the only one who can play ppl...

[Vicious]

I just do the quick path in my playthroughs.



Ser Cauthrien: "Surrender!"



PC: "Death first!" <attack>



No betrayal from Anora, and no annoying itch named Ser Cauthrien that shows up later.

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes much of this if from Logain once you get him as a partymember, but he doesn't have any reason to lie to you anymore at this point.

He has every reason to lie, to himself and to you.  He's trying to justify his actions.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Yes much of this if from Logain once you get him as a partymember, but he doesn't have any reason to lie to you anymore at this point.

He has every reason to lie, to himself and to you.  He's trying to justify his actions.

DIsagree.  Logain at the point when he is in your party has lost and accepts the fact he lost.  He has no reason to lie to you and no reason to want or need to get your approval, and his dialog options make that almost painfully clear.  He IS totally loyal to you (Logain) once he joins, but he does so because he accepts you as his commanding officer.  If you talk with him about other topics, it's clear he no longer cares what you think about him (and expects the worst in that department anyway).  Now, he does lie to himself at times especially about his paranoia about Orlais, but when he says that his daughter was in no danger, you can pretty much take that as gospel truth.

It's also born out in that scene with Ser Cauthrien.  Her orders do NOT include securing the queen which is unbelievable given Queen Anora's political importance unless she both is actually in no actual danger from Logain and Queen Anora set this up to begin with.  On his own, Logain has already proven time and again that he would be perfectly content to see you take a dirt-nap without the messiness of 'procedure'.

-Polaris

[mousestalker]

Personally, I ascribe this to sloppy writing, but have any of y'all paid attention to Imrek's dialogue at the gates of Orzammar? He is all "In the name of King Loghain." He repeatedly refers to Loghain as king.



Loghain was not a king. At no point was he ever crowned. He did become regent, which is someone who rules with the power of a king on behalf of royalty. Loghain is a teyrn, which is apparently a big deal in Ferelden (at the start of the game there are only two).



Let's assume it wasn't sloppy writing. Now either Loghain sent an idiot as ambassador to the dwarves, which is possible, or Imrek knew something.

[IanPolaris]

mousestalker wrote...

Let's assume it wasn't sloppy writing. Now either Loghain sent an idiot as ambassador to the dwarves, which is possible, or Imrek knew something.

This bothers me and bothered me as well.  I think the most reasonable explaination is that Imrik is an idiot.  The Gate Guard says as much after you kill him asking if "Are all humans that touched?"  At no other point in the game is Logain ever referred to as 'King'.  The highest title anyone ever gives him other than that one scene is "Regent" and indeed that is how Logain is usually referred to.  Logain himself very publically is wrapping himself around his daughter's name and never calls himself 'King'.

-Polaris

[AlanC9]

Ahisgewaya wrote...
I just don't understand not having an absolute morality. Even if you don't beleive in a god (and I don't in the traditional sense) why don't you make up you own morality? What is it you value? And if you value nothing then that seems meaningless to me. But then you said you would dedicate your life to changing society, so you clearly beleive in some sort of morality.

You do realize that in this passage you lose track of the distinction between morality and absolute morality after the first sentence, right?

I'm not at all sure what "absolute morality" is supposed to mean here, anyway. I'm pretty sure this is more about moral universalism than about absolutism, so it's probably not the right phrase to be using. Unless I've stumbled into some sort of Kantian/utilitarian free-fire zone, in which case I'll look for the nearest exit -- as a noncognitivist, I don't have a dog in that fight.

[AlanC9]

It's also born out in that scene with Ser Cauthrien.  Her orders do NOT include securing the queen which is unbelievable given Queen Anora's political importance unless she both is actually in no actual danger from Logain and Queen Anora set this up to begin with.

Huh? Cauthrien's got no idea Anora's anywhere near Howe's estate; why should her orders have anything at all to do with her?

[Realmzmaster]

Why does Cauthrien let your companions go?. They are just as guilty of killing Howe and company as the warden. In fact everyone in that party should have been detained.



As far as someone hearing the fighting going on in the dungeon, Howe was torturing people in the dungeon. I am sure that people in the castle heard a lot going on in the dungeon and were told to ignore it. or end up joining the prisoners.