515 réponses à ce sujet

[KendallX23]

If Cauthrien knew ANora was there..she would be her first priority not the wardens...well at least i think it would be...

As for why she lets your companions go...well she follows orders..and those were to capture the wardens(or kill)..and since she seems to be just that...a soldier..she dosen't care for others

[asaiasai]

I happen to like Anora and as has been suggested she is a victim of her positioning. By all accounts she is the defacto ruler as Cailan was more interested in playing war, and willing to ignore the administrative aspects of running a kingdom. Even Eamon (who is one on my heros in the game) is rightly impressed with her. She IS shrewd, calculating, manipulative, is a sense she is a typical politician except for one thing, she is actually competent. If i could ever play a male character (the thought of man butt wiggling in my face for 40 plus hours is not appealing) long enough to get to the end i would grab Anora like a covetious child snatching a treat. I am sure she gets alot of grief because of the whole competition angle as some folks manouver thier character into a ruling relationship with Allister. I can almost envision the very catty HATE HER!



Now i am going to get hammered but i usually feel real bad about making Anora marry Allister, she does not deserve to be saddled with Allister. She is already the victim of her position and yet again i continue her victimization but Feraldin needs to continue the royal line and as Eamon is one of my game heros Eamon gets what Eamon wants. She will accept it and do the best that she can because she knows no other way, Duty. As a Grey Warden you should be able to recognize a fellow travler wearing the yoke of leadership doing thier best to traverse the muddy road of duty.



I understand the Anora hate but i feel it is totally unjustified if one really looks at Anora and as with all the DAO characters tempers thier feelings with a bit of compassion, you make not like her but you must respect her, that is something Anora would understand.



Asai

[Realmzmaster]

Whose orders? Loghain? How does she know the wardens are at Howe's? And how does she know you killed Howe? Or has she been combing Denerim to find the wardens?

Not only that if you do not bring Alistair with you she only gets one warden?
Also she knows the wardens are at Arl Eamon's estate. She could arrest them there. Loghain has already branded the wardens traitors. She has full authority from the regent to arrest them.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 02 mars 2010 - 06:17 .

[Default137]

Honestly?

I love Anora.

Not romantically or anything, but as a character, she really is a master politician, and thats why she stays Queen in every single one of my games, she knows EXACTLY what Ferelden needs, and knows EXACTLY how she is going to get it, and she will backstab, manipulate, and lie her way to those goals. She is the perfect Queen, because she can do what needs to be done, and do it in a way that nobody really knows they've been used until they've already completely finished their part in her plan, which makes her quite possibly the best person in the game to be ruling a nation.

I find the idea of Alistar as sole king a fairly awkward idea honestly. I like the guy, I really do, but he is not King material, as he himself says, when he gets put in charge, people die, people suffer, and he ends up lost somewhere with no pants on, he's not a leader by any stretch of the word, and could not last an hour in the game of politics. I really get the feeling putting Alistar as a sole King ( or becoming Queen-Consort ) will both end up being serious Harrowmount choices come DA:A/DA:2.

Modifié par Default137, 02 mars 2010 - 06:40 .

[Realmzmaster]

Actually if you harden Alistair he makes a good king. If you marry Alistair to Anora you have the dynamic duo. Anora is a very capable administrator, but she lacks the common touch with the people. Alistair is very good with the common touch. Also Anora does very little to improve the lot of the elves unless you do the Dalish or city elf origin.

As far as elves are concerned Alistair is the better choice.

[Default137]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Actually if you harden Alistair he makes a good king. If you marry Alistair to Anora you have the dynamic duo. Anora is a very capable administrator, but she lacks the common touch with the people. Alistair is very good with the common touch. Also Anora does very little to improve the lot of the elves unless you do the Dalish or city elf origin.
As far as elves are concerned Alistair is the better choice.

Eh.

I wouldn't consider even a hardened Alistar as an amazing King without Anora to be honest.

Politics is dirty business, it changes you, and if you aren't prepared for it, you will be used, and you will never even know what happened, its not exactly a fun thing to get in to, and it can really destroy a person, being King would basically be the epicenter of it all. A sole Alistar, even a Hardened one would basically get torn apart before he could even learn what to do, he just wouldn't have enough knowledge to handle it, and would have to learn the hard way that those nice deals and sweet words were in fact backstabs and doublecrosses, and I don't think he'd be anywhere near as effective as Anora could be.

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

It's also born out in that scene with Ser Cauthrien.  Her orders do NOT include securing the queen which is unbelievable given Queen Anora's political importance unless she both is actually in no actual danger from Logain and Queen Anora set this up to begin with.

Huh? Cauthrien's got no idea Anora's anywhere near Howe's estate; why should her orders have anything at all to do with her?

Not a chance this is true.  Logain himself would know that Anora paid a courtesy call on the new Arl of Denerim.  From what I gather this is totally routine, btw.  If Ser Cauthrien did NOT know that Queen was there, she also could NOT have known that Arl Howe was murdered.

The point is this:  There is only one person who could have told Ser Cauthrien that you killed Howe in enough time for her to be at the Foyer of the Castle before even Arl Howe's men are aware anything is wrong.

That one person is Queen Anora.

-Polaris

[AlanC9]

The idea that Anora would rule well doesn't really stand up to close examination. It was Loghain's unprincipled behavior that damn near destroyed Ferelden in the first place. How is more of the same a good idea?

[IanPolaris]

KendallX23 wrote...

If Cauthrien knew ANora was there..she would be her first priority not the wardens...well at least i think it would be...
As for why she lets your companions go...well she follows orders..and those were to capture the wardens(or kill)..and since she seems to be just that...a soldier..she dosen't care for others

I will repeat what I just said above.  The only one with enough information to give those orders in a timely fashion is Queen Anora.  The fact Ser Cauthrien is there with the orders she has is IMHO proof positive that Queen Anora stabbed you in the back.

As Sherlock Holmes once said, once you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left however implausible has to be the truth.  The truth is that Queen Anora is the only one that could have given Ser Cauthrien those marching orders given the information and time constraints involved.   Please connect the dots.

-Polaris

[Kelnuin]

I see Anora, as needing Cailan or Allister, to offset her harsh side. I think she wants what is best for Ferelden, but she is not above manipulation. Anora seems to be a female Bismarck (politician not ship) that is willing to do what is needed to rule. With that said, I think she would always chose the less harsh way, unless she thought the citizens of Ferelden would suffer. The reason Anora would put Allister to death is that the rebellion would cost more live than just his.

Modifié par jamming777, 02 mars 2010 - 07:28 .

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...
Not a chance this is true.  Logain himself would know that Anora paid a courtesy call on the new Arl of Denerim.  From what I gather this is totally routine, btw.

Routine that visits, sure. Routine that Loghain knows exactly when? Routine that Loghain then tells Cauthrien? Based on what?

You're arguing against all of Cauthrien's own dialog, you know.

Edit: we both know what really happened. Bio's designers wanted to have the big dramatic Cauthrien confrontation to lead into the Fort Drakon sequence, so they mistakenly gave Cauthrien information she couldn't have had. 

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 mars 2010 - 07:36 .

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Not a chance this is true.  Logain himself would know that Anora paid a courtesy call on the new Arl of Denerim.  From what I gather this is totally routine, btw.

Routine that visits, sure. Routine that Loghain knows exactly when? Routine that Loghain then tells Cauthrien? Based on what?

You're arguing against all of Cauthrien's own dialog, you know.

Hardly.  I am using a commodity known as logical reasoning.  Erlina says in front of Arl Eamon that a visit from the Queen to the new Arl of Denerim is nothing more than a courtesy....and Arl Eamon doesn't say a peep otherwise.  Thus we can pretty much take this as a given.  Thus Logain knows at this point precisely where is daughter is.

As for Ser Cauthrien, you claim that I am arguing against her all her dialog but you fail prove any of that contention.  Ser Cauthrien only has orders for the Grey Wardens supposedly, yet she somehow knows before the Arl's own men that Arl Howe is dead.  She somehow arrive before the rest of the castle is even alerted.

There is ONLY ONE PERSON that could have given Ser Cauthrien this sort of intelligence.  That person is Queen Anora herself.

This isn't "Queen Anora hate" (athough I frankly despise her).  This is a simple and objective look at the facts of the matter.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

Edit: we both know what really happened. Bio's designers wanted to have the big dramatic Cauthrien confrontation to lead into the Fort Drakon sequence, so they mistakenly gave Cauthrien information she couldn't have had. 

We don't "know" this at all.  Ser Cauthrien could in fact have been in the Castle Foyer with the information she had.  There is no need to resort to the excuse of "sloppy writing" to cover this.  It merely means that Queen Anora ratted on you.  It's really that simple.

-Polaris

[Default137]

AlanC9 wrote...

The idea that Anora would rule well doesn't really stand up to close examination. It was Loghain's unprincipled behavior that damn near destroyed Ferelden in the first place. How is more of the same a good idea?

Actually......

Anora had been leading Ferelden for something like the past 5-15 years singlehandidly, and brought the Nation from poor backwater country, to slightly less poor, less backwater country, even while everything she tried to do got undermined by her husband being an idiot, the the point he almost handed the country on a silver platter to Orlais so that he could get a fancy title.

Loghain led poorly, I admit, but thats largely because he is not a political leader, he does not like to lead, he did not want to lead, and he had to handle a Blight, a Civil War, and the threat of war from Orlais with the remaining 1/5th of the Ferelden military he managed to save from Ostagar. He was backed in to a corner the second he reached Denerim, and barely had the resources to hold his ground, let alone lead a nation back from the bring of defeat.

And what would you have had Loghain do? Charge in with what little remained of Fereldens military, losing the greatest general, and all of the nations troops in a suicide charge that still wouldn't have saved Cailan according to all the evidence we see near the end of the game/RtO? Or how about leave Cailans uncle up and running, a guy who according to everyone is a political rat, who would incite the nation in to Civil War even if he hadn't been poisoned, just because he wanted power, and would have seen the chaos as his chance, he got rid of him to make sure the country stayed stable. And when it all came down to it, he needed cash to keep the country from going in to a major recession, and keep the Darkspawn form sacking Denerim, so he sold Elves to hire Mercs, would you rather he just sat there with his thumb stuck up his ass talking about Morality while the Darkspawn sacked what little remained of Fereldens major cities because he had no more troops?

[Realmzmaster]

Anora had been leading Ferelden for the past five years under Cailan's auspice. Anora does not have the common touch with the people. Cailan and Alistair do have that ability. Alistair rules fine without Anora. Arl Eamon tutors him in the finer points of being king.

The elves actually do well under Alistair. They do not do that well under Anora. And have not been doing well under her five years of "rule".

Even Cailan recognizes that the treatment of elves must change and expresses that to the city and dalish elfs.

Under Anora rule there is more rioting, distrust, death and destruction, because conditions do not change.



The only threat from Orlais is in Loghain's paranoid mind, whereas the Blight was most definitely real. Loghain does not state it is a true blight until the Landsmeet.

Also the plan at Ostagar was Loghain's. So I assume that he meant to betray Cailan from the start, since he poisoned Arl Eamon before Ostagar.

So Loghain was a traitor to the King and Ferelden. He then grabbed power by having his daughter declare him regent,

Thereby starting a civil war, because he did not have the loyality of the nobles like Cailan did. Anora for all her savvy appears not to have as much sway with the nobles either. Also her political savvy must have left her if she thought the nobles were going to accept her father as regent.

[Default137]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Anora had been leading Ferelden for the past five years under Cailan's auspice. Anora does not have the common touch with the people. Cailan and Alistair do have that ability. Alistair rules fine without Anora. Arl Eamon tutors him in the finer points of being king.
The elves actually do well under Alistair. They do not do that well under Anora. And have not been doing well under her five years of "rule".
Even Cailan recognizes that the treatment of elves must change and expresses that to the city and dalish elfs.
Under Anora rule there is more rioting, distrust, death and destruction, because conditions do not change.

The only threat from Orlais is in Loghain's paranoid mind, whereas the Blight was most definitely real. Loghain does not state it is a true blight until the Landsmeet.
Also the plan at Ostagar was Loghain's. So I assume that he meant to betray Cailan from the start, since he poisoned Arl Eamon before Ostagar.
So Loghain was a traitor to the King and Ferelden. He then grabbed power by having his daughter declare him regent,
Thereby starting a civil war, because he did not have the loyality of the nobles like Cailan did. Anora for all her savvy appears not to have as much sway with the nobles either. Also her political savvy must have left her if she thought the nobles were going to accept her father as regent.

Offer proof please?

I just double checked, Anora was in fact only Queen for five years, so you are correct there, which just makes her accomplishments even that much more amazing, but I would like to see proof for the other things.

Alistar is not a good leader, he says this himself, he admits he would be a terrible king, and even mentions several times throughout the game he would make a bad leader, so why do you think all of a sudden everything will be fairies and sunshine for a kingdom ruled solely by Alistar? And the Elves do not do well under Alistar unless you ask him for that, however the same thing happens under Anoras reign, if you ask her for more privileges for the Elves, they get a Bann, which is a huge jump.

Cailan was an idiot, sorry. He did not do a damn thing during his reign besides ruin the economy, kill 4/5ths of Fereldens military, and almost gave political control of the country over to the Empress of Orlais, a country which Loghain correctly identified as still a threat if you pay attention, there are rumors of Orlesian troops preparing for war on the Ferelden border during the time Ferelden is weak, there is the whole Arl Foreshadow thing mentioning Orlais, and the fact Cailan and the Empresses were having an affair, and hinted at the fact he was going to hand over Ferelden to her in exchange for a title.

As for the blight business and Loghain taking power and killing Cailan, I'd love to see proof he poisoned the Arl before Ostagar, because all the evidence in the game points directly to the fact Loghain wanted Cailan to stay back out of the battle, and that he only retreated because his plan failed, and 4/5ths of Fereldens army just so happened to die in front of him, and he knew a charge would kill the remaining 1/5th, something he refused to do, even for his King, not because he was power-hungry, or wanted to depose the nation. Actually if you pay attention, you find out Loghains plan failed not on purpose, but because of faulty intelligence, he thought it would just be a mop up operation, but it ended up being a Blight, which means the Darkspawn were smarter, and actually used tactics, as such, they flanked the Ostagar forces, forced the Mages to retreat before the charge, etc...

Oh, and Loghain didn't start the Civil War, the Warden did, if you actually pay attention, after you get your first ally, Howe comes in and tells him that a Civil War has started among the Banns, and then when you awaken Eamon, he really kickstarts the whole Civil War, as before it was just minor scuffles in the Bannorn.

[IanPolaris]

I will deconstruct this point by point:

Default137 wrote...

Offer proof please?

I just double checked, Anora was in fact only Queen for five years, so you are correct there, which just makes her accomplishments even that much more amazing, but I would like to see proof for the other things.

Alistar is not a good leader, he says this himself, he admits he would be a terrible king, and even mentions several times throughout the game he would make a bad leader, so why do you think all of a sudden everything will be fairies and sunshine for a kingdom ruled solely by Alistar? And the Elves do not do well under Alistar unless you ask him for that, however the same thing happens under Anoras reign, if you ask her for more privileges for the Elves, they get a Bann, which is a huge jump.

Anora comes down hard on the elves causing rioting.  If Alister is king in any capacity this does not happen.  It's pretty clear from the PoV of the elves which is better.  As for Alister making a good or bad leader, Alister has been indoctrinated by Arl Eamon from a young age that he would be a terrible leader and Alister has come to believe that to the point where he lets others walk all over him.  However, you can undo the damage by hardening Alister and to everyone's suprise including Alister's, a hardened Alister as ruling king makes a terrific ruler.  A hardened Alister in conjunction with either a Cousland Female PC who is NOT his romantic interest makes the very best ending followed by Alister (hardened) + Anora.

Cailan was an idiot, sorry. He did not do a damn thing during his reign besides ruin the economy, kill 4/5ths of Fereldens military, and almost gave political control of the country over to the Empress of Orlais, a country which Loghain correctly identified as still a threat if you pay attention, there are rumors of Orlesian troops preparing for war on the Ferelden border during the time Ferelden is weak, there is the whole Arl Foreshadow thing mentioning Orlais, and the fact Cailan and the Empresses were having an affair, and hinted at the fact he was going to hand over Ferelden to her in exchange for a title.

Proof that Orlais was threatening Ferelden would be nice.  So far the only thing I've seen are Logain's paranoid fantasies.  Even the letters found in RTO do not say what you (and Logain) think they say.  There is ZERO evidence that Cailan was going to give up Anora or Fereldan's independance and ZERO evidence that he was in fact having an affair with Celene I.  The familiar tone is just that....a familiar tone indicating that Cailan and Celene may have been friends.  Freinds =/= lovers.  If Anora really was reaching thirty, however, and still childless, setting her aside for a younger and presumably more fertile queen would be common sense from Cailan's PoV and in this Arl Eamon is perfectly correct.  There is also zero evidence that Cailan "ruined" Fereldan's economy.  Militarily, yes Cailan is a romantic fool, but don't overstate your case.

As for the blight business and Loghain taking power and killing Cailan, I'd love to see proof he poisoned the Arl before Ostagar, because all the evidence in the game points directly to the fact Loghain wanted Cailan to stay back out of the battle, and that he only retreated because his plan failed, and 4/5ths of Fereldens army just so happened to die in front of him, and he knew a charge would kill the remaining 1/5th, something he refused to do, even for his King, not because he was power-hungry, or wanted to depose the nation. Actually if you pay attention, you find out Loghains plan failed not on purpose, but because of faulty intelligence, he thought it would just be a mop up operation, but it ended up being a Blight, which means the Darkspawn were smarter, and actually used tactics, as such, they flanked the Ostagar forces, forced the Mages to retreat before the charge, etc...

I have no idea where you are getting your information from because it's certainly not present in the game.  Unlike you, I can PROVE that Logain preplanned his betrayal of Cailan before Ostagar.  Ser Donall in Lothering makes it extremely clear that Arl Eamon fell suddenly and deathly ill before the battle of Ostagar.  He also doesn't like the implications of what that would mean if Logain were behind it.  It turns out that Logain was behind it via Jowan, a bloodmage he rescued from Chantry custody for the sole reason to poison Arl Eamon and by a cutout in case someone else found out.  Point is that Logain most certainly poisoned Arl Eamon prior to Ostagar and ALSO instructed Fereldan's border forces to deny the Orlais Grey Wardens access to Fereldan (from Riordan's conversation) BEFORE Ostagar (time of transit makes it impossible for Logain to issue the orders afterwards).  In short, yes, Logain failed on purpose.  It turns out that even if he hadn't sabotaged his own plan, the Darkspawn would have won anyway, but let's call a spade a spade:  Teryn Logain betrayed King Cailan when King Cailan needed him most.

Oh, and Loghain didn't start the Civil War, the Warden did, if you actually pay attention, after you get your first ally, Howe comes in and tells him that a Civil War has started among the Banns, and then when you awaken Eamon, he really kickstarts the whole Civil War, as before it was just minor scuffles in the Bannorn.

False.  The Civil War starts before you awaken Arl Eamon and in fact the Arl's forces don't take part in the civil war at all.  Listen to the Gossips.  The Civil War and demands for Logain to step down from the regency start after you complete your first mission LONG before Arl Eamon is active.

-Polaris

[westiex9]

How my character deals with anora and views her depends on the origin im playing, if im playing a male human noble she's the gate way to power and thus my Greatest ally. If im playing a Female human noble then sorry Anora but i will tear you a new one to get my Crown!!



All the other origins im fine with letting anora marry alistair and rule ferelden, The simple fact is that when i am faced with losing my human noble Characters lover and stand a chance of ruling a nation im going to seize power no matter who is in the way. I don't hate Anora but sometimes she is in my way...and we can't have that

[IanPolaris]

Queen Fiona Cousland 1 Queen Anora 0

Contest to see who gets to use King Alistair's Control Rod.

-Polaris

[KendallX23]

Polaris..to ur latest reply to my comment..i was just answering the question that guy had about why Cauthrien would not take your companions with the warden...no ANora involved in discussion..

As for ruling..it is clear that ANora can't rule by herself..she lacks the people conection but is a good politician..and AListair can't rule alone because he lacks politics but has the people conection.So the best thing is to have them married...u get both...i never hardened AListair though...so i dunno wich AListair is better

[soignee]

I always view Anora as a hot Magaret Thatcher; ruthless iron lady type. The way she dealt with the Alienage rioters in my Aeducan's epilogue reminded me of the way Thatcher decided to deal with the miners. Not pleasant.



You can argue of course that Feraden needs a ruler like Anora, considering the finacial and political situation it is left in after the Blight and the leftover repercussions of the occupation. On my Brosca playthough I put an unhardened Alistair on the throne without Anora and regretted it, as he obviously didn't want it and became Arl Eamon's puppet. (I buggered off to be a Grey Warden.)

[nos_astra]

KendallX23 wrote...
As for ruling..it is clear that ANora can't rule by herself..she lacks the people conection but is a good politician..and AListair can't rule alone because he lacks politics but has the people conection.So the best thing is to have them married...u get both...i never hardened AListair though...so i dunno wich AListair is better

The best thing depends on your origin and gender. Do you want Loghain dead or not? Do you trust Anora or not? Do you care for Alistair or not? All of this may influence your decision. You're not obliged to play a duty hog that only cares about the greater good. That would be quite boring.

You could be a dwarven woman who is impressed by Anora's demeanor and put her on the throne alone. (You may regret that but you don't know the moment the decision is made.)
If you care for Alistair as a friend or a lover you willl probably let him kill Loghain and not marry him to Anora (because you may think he deserves a chance to choose his wife or be with the one he loves, his marriage with Anora is no love match).
If you want power yourself you can hook up with Alistair or Anora and become the ruler an saviour or wrestle for control.
You can make unhardened Alistair king and rule as his chancellor.
You can marry Alistair for love which is unique among all endings (and the epilogue card focusses completely on this).

What is best for Ferelden is metagaming because your Warden can't look into the future.

I am clearly spoilt by my favourite playthrough as a female human noble romancing Alistair. My view of Anora is clouded because I need a certain view to justify the decisions my noble makes. These decisions only make sense if she has a reason to believe that Anora on the throne is a risk. An of course I am willing to assume Anora did set up a trap in order to amipulate her father as well as the Warden so she can have her way.

When playing another origin that would put Anora on the throne and let Loghain live then I'll certainly find ways to justify Loghain's and Anora's actions. Things are left unclear so you can interpret them in your favor.

As for Alistair hardened or unhardened there's a simple rule to do the right thing: When it comes to the landsmeet and your choice of a ruler just LISTEN TO HIM. He's way smarter than he's given credit for.

Modifié par klarabella, 02 mars 2010 - 12:31 .

[ejoslin]

The only real difference between a romanced Alistair and non-romanced Alistair when making your Cousland princess-consort is how the people view her. When Alistair is not romanced (MY personal favorite ending), the people view her as ruler, but the rest of the epilogue cards are exactly the same.

Edit: The problem with listening to Alistair at the landsmeet, is, of course, whether hardened or not he'll say both that he should be made king and that Anora should be made queen, depending on what you ask him.  And since you can go back to the conversation, you can get both answers.

Modifié par ejoslin, 02 mars 2010 - 02:31 .

[DarkCamel]

To jump into the Cauthrien-Anora discussion, I offer the real possibility that Anora did not plan to have the Warden's rescued. And the reason is Cauthrien's presence herself.



Anora could not guarantee there would be a confrontation with Cauthrien. Only the door ward, which must have been added after the maid left to Eamon's Palace, prevented the easy rescue and forced the bloody path leading to the front door. It would be quite logical that having sneaked into the castle, reached the door with no violence that the Warden might have been able to open the door and sneak back out with Anora in tow the way they came in. All Anora knows when she is rescued is that the ward is lifted. Whether it is by killing the mage, or just overcoming the ward (and the nearby guards) with your party, neither Anora nor her maid has time to inform Cauthrien what happened.



Cauthrien orders the arrest of the Warden on Loghain's orders. Cauthrien is Loghain's most senior officer. She reports to Loghain, and is not a royal guard. Cauthrien would not march a heavily armed goup into any Arl's estate without orders from Loghain or a request for royal reinforcements from Howe. Since IanPolaris proved that it is unlikely that Howe or his men requested Cauthrien's presence, the only other person who could have sent Cauthrien was Loghain. Anora herself implies as much when she states that the Royal Guard obeys Loghain's orders. Lastly, there is no evidence that Anora asked Loghain for Cauthrien and an armed team to go to Howe’s estate. It is clear both from Cauthrien’s statements and from Loghain’s that neither knew that Anora was at Howe’s estate when Cauthrien arrived. Since Loghain has no reason to dispatch Cauthrien and her armed team to Howe's estate for a rescue, and Anora has no justification to inform her father to send an armed team into Howe’s estate, the question is why Loghain sent Cauthrien to Howe's estate in the first place. The logical reason is that Loghain sent Cauthrien to capture the Warden and that Cauthrien followed the Warden to Howe’s estate.



The Warden is staying under the protection of Arl Eamon. Loghain certainly would have someone stationed in the Denerim market watching Eamon's Palace to make sure that the Grey Warden's movements are tracked. Loghain has invested plenty in trying to neutralize the Wardens - from assassins to bounty hunters. Certainly keeping a scout in the market to watch if the Warden’s left the estate would be prudent. In Eamon's estate, the Wardens are untouchable. Loghain cannot send an armed force into Eamon's estate as it would jeopardize Loghain's relationship with the rest of the Landsmeet. However, outside Eamon's estate, and especially in Howe’s estate, the Wardens are fair game. A scout would inform Loghain when the Warden leaves, and Loghain would dispatch Cauthrien (the only one he trusts to get the job done right) to arrest the Warden for treason. It takes time to dispatch the message, follow the Wardens, and get Cauthrien and her team in place. The Warden, especially if accompanied by a party, is easy enough to keep track of. And given the relationship between Howe and the party, Cauthrien does have a justification to storm into Howe’s estate if she has just arrived.



Cauthrien states she is acting under Loghain's orders when she has the Warden arrested for the murder of Howe. Loghain wants the Warden arrested for treason. Cauthrien finds herself confronted by a group covered in blood, which is attempting to leave the Howe's estate Cauthrien is smart enough to guess that any visit from the Wardens to the Howe estate (especially for a human noble) was not a polite social call. Cauthrien could probably guess that Howe has been confronted and is probably dead when the PC attempts to walk out of door of Howe's estate covered in blood. Cauthrien participated in the meeting between the PC, Eamon, Loghain and Howe. Thus she has a reason both to arrest the Warden for treason as per orders, and to assume Howe is murdered. Lastly, it explains why Cauthrien only arrests the Warden(s). Because her mission from Loghain is not to respond to Howe's murder or to rescue Anora. Her mission from Loghain is simply to arrest the Wardens for treason – Howe’s murder is a bonus for the charge.



Cauthrien showing up to arrest the Warden at Howe's estate only makes sense if Loghain, not Anora, ordered her to do it.

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...

We don't "know" this at all.  Ser Cauthrien could in fact have been in the Castle Foyer with the information she had.  There is no need to resort to the excuse of "sloppy writing" to cover this.  It merely means that Queen Anora ratted on you.  It's really that simple.

No, it isn't. I've seen this sort of goof in Bio games before. Until Gaider or somebody drops by and confirms your hypothesis, I'm calling it fanwankery -- though a pretty ingenious attempt.

Mostly, I'm not buying it because it's not the sort of thing Bio does. They're always much more obvious about betrayals and whatnot.

Just to be clear, I am absolutely not defending Anora here. I can see her pulling something like this. But I do not see that the case she absolutely did do it is proven.

Regardless, there's no particular reason to think that Ser Cauthrien is involved. It works better if she's duped too -- that way, we don't have to assume that most of her dialog is lies. Edit: I'm assuming that in this case, the maid goes and fetches her while the Warden's busy killing Howe.

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 mars 2010 - 06:09 .