515 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

DarkCamel - I like your explanation much better (after all, the first thing we see in Denerim is Loghain arriving at Eamon's estate with Cauthrien and Howe in tow, so he obviously knows where the group are staying).

I doubt you'll get IanPolaris to back down though. He's like a rabid Mabari with a lamb bone.

[mousestalker]

CalJones wrote...

DarkCamel - I like your explanation much better (after all, the first thing we see in Denerim is Loghain arriving at Eamon's estate with Cauthrien and Howe in tow, so he obviously knows where the group are staying).
I doubt you'll get IanPolaris to back down though. He's like a rabid Mabari with a lamb bone.

I disagree. I think the Mabari has a veal bone.



This has actually been a fascinating discussion, even if there has been more heat than light at times.

[IanPolaris]

I will desconstruct this point by point:

DarkCamel wrote...

To jump into the Cauthrien-Anora discussion, I offer the real possibility that Anora did not plan to have the Warden's rescued. And the reason is Cauthrien's presence herself.

Anora could not guarantee there would be a confrontation with Cauthrien. Only the door ward, which must have been added after the maid left to Eamon's Palace, prevented the easy rescue and forced the bloody path leading to the front door. It would be quite logical that having sneaked into the castle, reached the door with no violence that the Warden might have been able to open the door and sneak back out with Anora in tow the way they came in. All Anora knows when she is rescued is that the ward is lifted. Whether it is by killing the mage, or just overcoming the ward (and the nearby guards) with your party, neither Anora nor her maid has time to inform Cauthrien what happened.

This is incorrect.  Only Anora and only Anora could guarantee a confrontation with Cauthrien.  You are assuming that Erlina and Anora are telling you the truth about when the Door Ward was added.  Are you really willing to take them at their word on this?  Even if what they say is technically true, it would be easy enough for Anora to manipulate Howe and his men into installing that door ward after Erlina left so that what Erlina said could be technically true.  In short, you can not believe a word Anora says about why you have to go downstairs and slaughter Howe especially since it seems extremely likely that this was at least part of Anora's intent in the first place!  I notice that Anora is not at all put out about the extra time or potential blown suprised when you point out (correctly!) that this will blow a chance for a completely clean getaway which was supposec to be the intent!  Thus Anora and only Anora could send her maid to get a message to a waiting Ser Cauthrien just when the Door Ward goes down.  No one else could arrange to have her show up minutes after you kill Arl Howe with the knowledge that you did so while no one else in the castle is the wiser (that's alive anyway).

Cauthrien orders the arrest of the Warden on Loghain's orders. Cauthrien is Loghain's most senior officer. She reports to Loghain, and is not a royal guard. Cauthrien would not march a heavily armed goup into any Arl's estate without orders from Loghain or a request for royal reinforcements from Howe. Since IanPolaris proved that it is unlikely that Howe or his men requested Cauthrien's presence, the only other person who could have sent Cauthrien was Loghain. Anora herself implies as much when she states that the Royal Guard obeys Loghain's orders. Lastly, there is no evidence that Anora asked Loghain for Cauthrien and an armed team to go to Howe’s estate. It is clear both from Cauthrien’s statements and from Loghain’s that neither knew that Anora was at Howe’s estate when Cauthrien arrived. Since Loghain has no reason to dispatch Cauthrien and her armed team to Howe's estate for a rescue, and Anora has no justification to inform her father to send an armed team into Howe’s estate, the question is why Loghain sent Cauthrien to Howe's estate in the first place. The logical reason is that Loghain sent Cauthrien to capture the Warden and that Cauthrien followed the Warden to Howe’s estate.

No she doesn't.  Ser Cauthrien is arresting the PCs in the name of the regent.  This is essentially an arresting officer declaring jurisdictional rights when making an arrest.  It's Cauthrien's position within Logain's power structure and Logain's trust that gives her the authority to make the arrest, but she never says that she is acting specifically on Logain's specific orders.  Indeed she can not be, because if she were, the Grey Wardens would have been killed (or tried to be killed ) then and there without the niceties of an arrest.  Logain has already tried doing this to the Grey Wardens at least twice before (that we know of!)

The Warden is staying under the protection of Arl Eamon. Loghain certainly would have someone stationed in the Denerim market watching Eamon's Palace to make sure that the Grey Warden's movements are tracked. Loghain has invested plenty in trying to neutralize the Wardens - from assassins to bounty hunters. Certainly keeping a scout in the market to watch if the Warden’s left the estate would be prudent. In Eamon's estate, the Wardens are untouchable. Loghain cannot send an armed force into Eamon's estate as it would jeopardize Loghain's relationship with the rest of the Landsmeet. However, outside Eamon's estate, and especially in Howe’s estate, the Wardens are fair game. A scout would inform Loghain when the Warden leaves, and Loghain would dispatch Cauthrien (the only one he trusts to get the job done right) to arrest the Warden for treason. It takes time to dispatch the message, follow the Wardens, and get Cauthrien and her team in place. The Warden, especially if accompanied by a party, is easy enough to keep track of. And given the relationship between Howe and the party, Cauthrien does have a justification to storm into Howe’s estate if she has just arrived.

The idea that Logain would have spies looking for the Wardens makes perfect sense.  However, the timing is impossible for Ser Cauthrien.  Remember too, that it was Arl Howe that was organizing all of Logain's spy and dirty tricks (Fedan, Bernwick, Zev, etc) and thus if Logain's spies had twigged on the PC's attempted rescue Arl Howe should have been the first to know! 

Cauthrien states she is acting under Loghain's orders when she has the Warden arrested for the murder of Howe. Loghain wants the Warden arrested for treason. Cauthrien finds herself confronted by a group covered in blood, which is attempting to leave the Howe's estate Cauthrien is smart enough to guess that any visit from the Wardens to the Howe estate (especially for a human noble) was not a polite social call. Cauthrien could probably guess that Howe has been confronted and is probably dead when the PC attempts to walk out of door of Howe's estate covered in blood. Cauthrien participated in the meeting between the PC, Eamon, Loghain and Howe. Thus she has a reason both to arrest the Warden for treason as per orders, and to assume Howe is murdered. Lastly, it explains why Cauthrien only arrests the Warden(s). Because her mission from Loghain is not to respond to Howe's murder or to rescue Anora. Her mission from Loghain is simply to arrest the Wardens for treason – Howe’s murder is a bonus for the charge.

NO.  Cauthrien states she is operating under NAME of the Regent.  This is stating her authority.  She only arrests the two wardens despite the queen and her servant hovering in the background and the other party members being covered in blood.  Also there is NO WAY you can make the leap from "covered in blood" to "killed Arl Howe" unless you were specifically told this.  Arl Howe after all is a good, nasty, and dirty fighter in his own right and well protected both by magic and senior guards.  The fact remains that Ser Cauthrien has information she couldn't possibly have unless someone told her in time.  The only person that could is Queen Anora (via her maid) herself. 

Cauthrien showing up to arrest the Warden at Howe's estate only makes sense if Loghain, not Anora, ordered her to do it.

I have proven otherwise multiple times.  The only way Cauthrien's appearence with the information makes sense is if Anora ratted you out.

-Polaris

[Realmzmaster]

How does Anora know that the door has a ward? She was under heavy guard. The door was presumably locked after she was thrown in. Did Howe or the mage tell her?

How does Cauthrien know the warden killed Howe? The warden covered in blood only means he/she killed someone, not necessarily Howe? In fact only the Human noble and city elf have an outright reason to kill Howe. She specifically states she is threre to arrest the warden for the murder of Howe, not treason.

How does Ser Cauthrien know the warden is coming out the front door? Logic would dictate that everybody behind the warden is dead. The sensible path is to go back that way. Anora and Erlina do not budge unless the warden goes out the front door. Thereby forcing a confrontation with Cauthrien. (This is a weak point in the game).

Ser Cauthrein would have to divide her forces to cover both possible exits (could be more). Which means that the warden and party would have a fighting chance to best either group. Cauthrein could not be in both groups, (except by the magic of Bioware).

[KnightofPhoenix]

Or it could be a writer oversight in order to force in a prison escape that might be funny, but otherwise not so immersive or challenging.

[Realmzmaster]

Point taken! KnightofPhoenix! Actually from right before the Landsmeet to the end the game becomes linear plot wise. So Bioware is forcing you to confront Cauthrien. Either kill her or surrender to her. The whole prison escape is really comedy sidequest. It does not serve any real plot purposes.

[KendallX23]

well anyway..the whole thing is weird..this are all assumptions..on all sides..we got no definite proof either way...so why not drop the subject..it is obviouslly Polaris hates the Anora character and will stick to his theory...that does make sense...i like the character and will stick to mine...and then there is the neutral theory some people have and probably the best one..that is Bioware magic involved here...and unless a dev reveals the truth we may never now.

[Ahisgewaya]

Can you marry Anora and become King as anything other than a human noble? (especially as an elf, think of the scandal!)

[DalishRanger]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Can you marry Anora and become King as anything other than a human noble? (especially as an elf, think of the scandal!)

Without somehow modding/hacking the game? No. She'll only marry Alistair or a male human noble.

[DarkCamel]

I'll gladly concede to Bioware magic. Either way, I have a new appreciation for Anora as possbibly the smartest person in Ferelden.

[voidwarrior]

Its truly incredible to see how bias and conjecture combine in some folks, to give rise to beliefs set in stone, that are offered as irrefutable proof of a fictional character's intention(s) and or actions.



Anora simply has no vested interest (motive) in having the PC (Warden) captured by Ser Cauthrien. She needs the PC's support at the Landsmeet in order to wrest control of throne from her father and Howe. Having the PC arrested by Ser Cauthrien merely strengthens her father - Loghain's hand. There is no way that Anora would have acted contra to her passionate desire to rule Felderen.



As Loghain is aware that the PC is in Denerim it is far more likely that his spies informed him or his second in command Ser Cauthrien, that the PC (and party) was near Howe’s estate. Either Loghain sent Ser Cauthrien or she acted on her own initiative. Howe would not have know this, as by the time Ser Cauthrien arrived the PC had already killed him and was about to leave.



Queen Anora is a peerless tactician & strategist - she makes her father Loghain look like a clumsy amateur. When Loghain proclaims himself regent after the loss at Ostagar, Anora thinks he is acting with best intentions - as he did when securing Felderen's independence. By the time she realises that the course he has embarked on could be disastrous for Felderen and her rulership, she is for "under house arrest". Hence the rescue plan and the need to secure the PC's support at the Landsmeet to ensure that she is returned to power.



Personally I absolutely adore Queen Anora The Great. When she asks for your support I would be quite happy if there was a selectable option that allowed you to say. "There is no need for you to ask for my support for I am yours to command my Queen"



Long live Queen Anora The Great adept of the "Thick Face Black heart". I live to serve her and die to protect her. Anora rocks.

[Jewsapalewsa]

Anora is the least trustworthy, arguably most evil character in the gaem. I would rather have Loghain on the throne than that worthless ****. Plus, she doesn't need to rule, she needs to be at home, makin sammiches.





New Idea for a mod, a sammich makin Anora.

[SurelyForth]

Queen Anora is a peerless tactician & strategist - she makes her father Loghain look like a clumsy amateur. When Loghain proclaims himself regent after the loss at Ostagar, Anora thinks he is acting with best intentions - as he did when securing Felderen's independence. By the time she realises that the course he has embarked on could be disastrous for Felderen and her rulership, she is for "under house arrest". Hence the rescue plan and the need to secure the PC's support at the Landsmeet to ensure that she is returned to power.

Well, she is up until the point where the non-politician wins her over with some sweet words of support and then kills her father and knocks her off of her throne. And she's not even the best strategist/politician you meet in the game- I think that honor falls to Bhelen. The sheer amount of behind the scenes crap he pulls (while maintaining the front of good-natured kid brother) in the DN origin would make Anora green with envy.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 03 mars 2010 - 01:20 .

[Jewsapalewsa]

Anora only good for making pies

[KendallX23]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

Anora is the least trustworthy, arguably most evil character in the gaem. I would rather have Loghain on the throne than that worthless ****. Plus, she doesn't need to rule, she needs to be at home, makin sammiches.


New Idea for a mod, a sammich makin Anora.

        True..she isn't realy trusthworthy...she is a politician(u can never trust them)..why is she the most evil ?she is just trying to make sure she ends up as a queen.Loghain would put the country in war against Orlais..soon after the Blight is over..yea he seems to hate that country that much.ANora is not worthless...she is great asa a queen..despite missing the social skills.
          Ok..the last comment of yours was sexist even for a game character..plus she dosen't need to make sandwiches..she can put her maid to do that

[Jewsapalewsa]

KendallX23 wrote...

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

Anora is the least trustworthy, arguably most evil character in the gaem. I would rather have Loghain on the throne than that worthless ****. Plus, she doesn't need to rule, she needs to be at home, makin sammiches.


New Idea for a mod, a sammich makin Anora.

        True..she isn't realy trusthworthy...she is a politician(u can never trust them)..why is she the most evil ?she is just trying to make sure she ends up as a queen.Loghain would put the country in war against Orlais..soon after the Blight is over..yea he seems to hate that country that much.ANora is not worthless...she is great asa a queen..despite missing the social skills.
          Ok..the last comment of yours was sexist even for a game character..plus she dosen't need to make sandwiches..she can put her maid to do that

I was feeling plucky, so I said some silly things.

She really is the least trustworthy person, but obviously not the most evil (There are Howe and the Darkspawn in the game).    And the Sammich comment was just to screw with people.  But really, she's not misunderstood, she's juast a selfish, completely self serving human being.

Modifié par Jewsapalewsa, 03 mars 2010 - 01:37 .

[KendallX23]

well...after playing the game a few times..i realised a lot of people in this word are selfish and think only of themselves..so Anora fits perfectly...my opinion though..

[Jewsapalewsa]

KendallX23 wrote...

well...after playing the game a few times..i realised a lot of people in this word are selfish and think only of themselves..so Anora fits perfectly...my opinion though..

True, but she was the dirty **** that jammed it in my poop chute at every possible oportunity.

[Helios969]

Jewsapalewsa wrote...

Anora only good for making pies

I'll pull a chair up to the table for her pies.

[Jewsapalewsa]

I can't believe it. I made a moderately offensive joke on a Bioware forum, and people have taken it in stide, and I have yet to be ROFLStomped into the ground by politically correct crazies.



I'm proud today folks.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

voidwarrior wrote...
Anora simply has no vested interest (motive) in having the PC (Warden) captured by Ser Cauthrien. She needs the PC's support at the Landsmeet in order to wrest control of throne from her father and Howe. Having the PC arrested by Ser Cauthrien merely strengthens her father - Loghain's hand. There is no way that Anora would have acted contra to her passionate desire to rule Felderen.

I'm not sure that this is really the case.  There are plenty of plausable motives for Anora to backstab the Warden.  The easiest one is that by the time the landsmeet is called it's clear that the Warden will have the greatest say in what happens next.  If the Warden is in jail then Anora is far more likely to be able to have things fall out the way she wants them to without his or her interfearence.

voidwarrior wrote...
As Loghain is aware that the PC is in Denerim it is far more likely that his spies informed him or his second in command Ser Cauthrien, that the PC (and party) was near Howe’s estate. Either Loghain sent Ser Cauthrien or she acted on her own initiative. Howe would not have know this, as by the time Ser Cauthrien arrived the PC had already killed him and was about to leave.

Yes, but as pointed out by others there is no way that Ser Cauthrien could have known for certain that Howe was dead without inside information.  No casual spy would have known that in time for Ser Cauthrien to arrest the warden on said charge.

[Addai]

Having played this again last night, I conclude that though there are plot holes left, it was intended that Cauthrien would have been dispatched after the ruse at the front door + the dead guards in the back were discovered. When you first talk to Anora, she says "if Howe doesn't already know you're here, he soon will." If she was trying to lure you into a sense of complacency, she wouldn't say that.



It also underscored for me how under-handed Anora is in all this. She tells you flat out that if you rescue her, she promises her support in the Landsmeet. Later on she tells you that, even if you say you won't support her bid to stay on the throne, that she'll still help you thwart Loghain there because that is more important. My mage character (who is not savvy enough to realize she is lying) is going to find out how right she is in making sure Anora's time as ruler is finished.

[IanPolaris]

Addai67 wrote...

Having played this again last night, I conclude that though there are plot holes left, it was intended that Cauthrien would have been dispatched after the ruse at the front door + the dead guards in the back were discovered. When you first talk to Anora, she says "if Howe doesn't already know you're here, he soon will." If she was trying to lure you into a sense of complacency, she wouldn't say that.

Again that just doesn't jibe with the information we have.  First of all Ser Cauthrien is waiting at the Foyer with information that you've killed Arl Howe and there is only one possible way she could know this.  In addition and further implicating Queen Anora, as a PC you CAN bypass the Foyer and backtrack through the Dungeon and avoid Cauthrien and come back the way you came (although you DO have to fight though Howe's guards if youi do).  However, Queen Anora will not follow you if you try.  Queen Anora FORCES you to face a Ser Cauthrien that she already knows is there.

Also there is a riot going on at Howe's palace.  Having a patrol turn up dead is unfortunate but hardly noteworthy in such a case.   The logical conclusion most would make is that some badits/thugs took advantage of the chaos and jumped a patrol.  There is no reason to call in the Regent's men over that....simply double the patrols outside the wall.  Just as local PDs don't call in the FBI over every murder, there is no reason to call in Ser Cauthrien over the dead patrol.....assuming they are found and missed almost immediately....a big IF.  It's also worth noting that you can (with difficulty admittly) avoid that outside confrontation, but Ser Cauthrien still shows up.

It also underscored for me how under-handed Anora is in all this. She tells you flat out that if you rescue her, she promises her support in the Landsmeet. Later on she tells you that, even if you say you won't support her bid to stay on the throne, that she'll still help you thwart Loghain there because that is more important. My mage character (who is not savvy enough to realize she is lying) is going to find out how right she is in making sure Anora's time as ruler is finished.

Right and it further damns her in my mind.  Once it's clear that you can't free Queen Anora without leaving a trail of blood though Howe's Dungeon at the very least the logical and reasonable thing to do (because Queen Anora is quite right....you will be revealed eventually) is to call off the rescue and call it a day.  Queen Anora lies to you in order to keep that from happening.  She also doesn't seem to be very put out about you blowing your own cover and putting yourself at risk (further risk I should say).

-Polaris

[Addai]

IanPolaris wrote...
Again that just doesn't jibe with the information we have.  First of all Ser Cauthrien is waiting at the Foyer with information that you've killed Arl Howe and there is only one possible way she could know this. 

I agree this is a plot hole.  Cauthrien should simply have arrested you for trespassing, then a guard could run in and say that Howe is dead.

In addition and further implicating Queen Anora, as a PC you CAN bypass the Foyer and backtrack through the Dungeon and avoid Cauthrien and come back the way you came (although you DO have to fight though Howe's guards if youi do).  However, Queen Anora will not follow you if you try.  Queen Anora FORCES you to face a Ser Cauthrien that she already knows is there.

Everything about the Cauthrien fight, including its difficulty, is pointing you towards the Captured quest.  Gameplay is the culprit here, I believe.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

The funny thing is that I beat Cauthrien on my first try. I didn't even know about the Captured quest until later. I think that it's false to assume that Captured is intended to be the only result. Sure the devs tipped the odds in that direction, but the fight is cearly winnable even on a first run by a guy who plays mostly for fun.