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[Elfseeker]

-Not- Like her daddy. Her daddy just wanted the military might and efficient chain of command being on the top would get him. Never, to my knowledge, did he claim the slightest interest in ruling as king.

As for Anora's 'thirst for power'....she -was- in power, and is merely trying to regain it. Two people were seen to be in power these last five years. She is the surivivng half. What's so 'powerhungry' about wanting to get control back over a country gone to chaos, when you -know- you can do better, having had five years(give or take one) to prove just that?



Daddy trained her well, and the people like what they see of her.



Thought; the civil war is because Loghain took power. So she -does- have armies on her side...so to speak. Thus eloquently illustrating why she does not go against him; it would serve no real purpose, and might just risk her chances to regain her seat.

[Kryyptehk]

Xandurpein wrote...

There is also the interesting debate over who's fault it is that Anora has produced no heir, or why Cailan is sleeping around with other women. It's interesting to note how many people are willing to take the part of the cheating husband and claim it's all the wife's fault. If she had been more warm to him, he hadn't been forced to find it elsewhere... I don't buy that excuse for a second in real life, nor do I buy it in the game.
Anora even admits that she loved Cailan, even if she knew exactly who he was. She was willing to look the other way, for the sake of her duty, as women many times have been forced to do throughout history...

And it couldn't have been Cailan who was infertile? that 'stud'? no way....

I don't think anyone is blaming Anora for Cailan's infidelity. I think he's a king and what do most kings do? Cheat on their spouses, that is why there is not an outcry over Cailan's infidelity. No ones surprised. I'm guessing Anora probably wasn't either.

And I myself believe that Anora was infertile. They make no mention of a child by her in the epilogue, which means either she couldn't have one or she didn't bother to try, which would be incredibly selfish of her. And I say that because she already knows the repercussions of no heir to the throne, why would she not even bother to try and risk another civil war?

[Cazlee]

I understand why you feel that Anora misunderstood. In my first playthrough I was relieved that there was another option for the throne. Alistair had the potential to be a great king, but he wanted nothing more than to be a gray warden, and I wanted nothing more than for him to be happy and to do as he wished for once in his life. I supported Anora and she turned out to be a fine ruler.



However in my next games I decided to experiment a bit more. I hardened Alistair and told Anora that I could not support her. She backstabbed at the landsmeet. Next experiment. I supported Anora, but told her that Loghaine would die without question. Again, backstabbed at the landsmeet. After learning more about her personality, especially from her father, it becomes pretty obvious that Anora has been manipulating the gray warden from the beginning. She makes this all but clear if she backstabs you in the landsmeet depending on your dialogue choice. Anora may have been in danger from Arl Howe, but she was never in danger from her father. I still like Anora but the gray warden is just a political pawn to her.

[Elfseeker]

No child in epilogue = one of the bigger 'gaps' of logic in the game indeed. But as has been pointed out elsewhere, the game is set up to make it unlikely with children from the royal couple. Both the PC and Alistair are Wardens, which among other things lowers the 'risk' of putting buns in ovens. More or less drastically, as I recall.

[ReubenLiew]

Cazlee wrote...

I understand why you feel that Anora misunderstood. In my first playthrough I was relieved that there was another option for the throne. Alistair had the potential to be a great king, but he wanted nothing more than to be a gray warden, and I wanted nothing more than for him to be happy and to do as he wished for once in his life. I supported Anora and she turned out to be a fine ruler.

However in my next games I decided to experiment a bit more. I hardened Alistair and told Anora that I could not support her. She backstabbed at the landsmeet. Next experiment. I supported Anora, but told her that Loghaine would die without question. Again, backstabbed at the landsmeet. After learning more about her personality, especially from her father, it becomes pretty obvious that Anora has been manipulating the gray warden from the beginning. She makes this all but clear if she backstabs you in the landsmeet depending on your dialogue choice. Anora may have been in danger from Arl Howe, but she was never in danger from her father. I still like Anora but the gray warden is just a political pawn to her.

Well, you did tell her you were going to strip her of her title, or kill her father.
If you told me that I'd try to get you killed before you had the chance, to be honest.

[Elfseeker]

Backstab=surprise attack from unexpected quarter.

I believe her intentions and goals are clear enough by that point that nothing she does is all that unexpected.

But I'll back off on that one, as I have not yet(nor probably ever will) run every option through to it's conclusion.

[Kryyptehk]

Elfseeker wrote...

No child in epilogue = one of the bigger 'gaps' of logic in the game indeed. But as has been pointed out elsewhere, the game is set up to make it unlikely with children from the royal couple. Both the PC and Alistair are Wardens, which among other things lowers the 'risk' of putting buns in ovens. More or less drastically, as I recall.

And that's exactly why I think she can't have children. Because the whole thing could be fixed by telling her to have children. That problem's solved, now lets move on to the darkspawn. lol

[Maria Caliban]

Kryyptehk wrote...

I don't think anyone is blaming Anora for Cailan's infidelity.

Yes, people have blamed Anora for Cailan's infidelity. It usually takes the form of "Anora is so cold/****/arrogant, no wonder Cailan slept around." I believe my favorite is, "Take care of the kingdom? She couldn't take care of Cailan's ****. That's job number one!"

And I myself believe that Anora was infertile. They make no mention of a child by her in the epilogue, which means either she couldn't have one or she didn't bother to try, which would be incredibly selfish of her.

As far as I know, they don't make mention of children in any of the epilogues.

[Elfseeker]

Take a 'mistress' of her own, you mean? I suppose...but suspect it would sour relations a bit.

[Kryyptehk]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

I don't think anyone is blaming Anora for Cailan's infidelity.

Yes, people have blamed Anora for Cailan's infidelity. It usually takes the form of "Anora is so cold/****/arrogant, no wonder Cailan slept around." I believe my favorite is, "Take care of the kingdom? She couldn't take care of Cailan's ****. That's job number one!"

Ah, here I thought noone in their right mind would be ignorant enough to think that. My apologies.

And I myself believe that Anora was infertile. They make no mention of a child by her in the epilogue, which means either she couldn't have one or she didn't bother to try, which would be incredibly selfish of her.

As far as I know, they don't make mention of children in any of the epilogues.

Yeah, everything is placed exactly so that no one will have an easy time with having children. Hence why I think that the throne does not have an heir will be a major plotpoint later.

[Realmzmaster]

Anora is an effective leader? Perhaps, but she also shows her stupidity by going to see Howe. She knows what kind of man Howe is. Did she really think she could walk in to his castle, ask the questions she asked and be allowed to leave? Did she really think Howe would allow her to mess up his good thing?

Also, Anora names her father as regent. She lets him take power. One word from her could have prevented it and prevented civil war. She is the Queen. She did not show her leadership at this time.

She maintained the status quo with the elves. Good leaders push to better the lot of the citizens.

If you play the city elf origin even Calian comes to the realization that conditions in the alienage must improve. In this origin you can request a boon that a Bann of the Alienage be created only then does the city elves lot improve.

Anora had been ruling behind the scenes for five years, yet the lot of the city elves did not improve in that time, thereby fermenting rebellion and rioting. It was so bad that Howe's men stormed an orphanage and Loghain started selling elves as slaves to fund the civil war he started.



As a good ruler she should know when to throw a hungry dog a bone. She ignored the situation until it got out of control and she had to forcibly put it down. She basically ignored the situation until it was to late.



Yes. in one of the endings she establishes a university, but for whom? Not the elves. Here I give the Circle of Magi credit, they do not care if you are human, elven or dwarven as long as you wish to learn.

So we can agree to disagree on Anora.

Alistair is a very effective leader if you harden him IMHO

[Kryyptehk]

Elfseeker wrote...

Take a 'mistress' of her own, you mean? I suppose...but suspect it would sour relations a bit.

Why? If Cailan was dead and civil war would pretty much threaten Ferelden again, I see no reason why she couldn't.

[Cutlass Jack]

Xandurpein wrote...

There is also the interesting debate over who's fault it is that Anora has produced no heir, or why Cailan is sleeping around with other women. It's interesting to note how many people are willing to take the part of the cheating husband and claim it's all the wife's fault. If she had been more warm to him, he hadn't been forced to find it elsewhere... I don't buy that excuse for a second in real life, nor do I buy it in the game.
Anora even admits that she loved Cailan, even if she knew exactly who he was. She was willing to look the other way, for the sake of her duty, as women many times have been forced to do throughout history...

And it couldn't have been Cailan who was infertile? that 'stud'? no way....

What sleeping around are we talking about exactly? I saw no direct mention of any infidelity on Cailan's part, other than people making some huge, huge assumptions based on RTO letters. By all accounts I saw in game Cailan was completely smitten and overwhelmed by Anora.

Did I miss something important or are people just assuming?

[Kryyptehk]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

There is also the interesting debate over who's fault it is that Anora has produced no heir, or why Cailan is sleeping around with other women. It's interesting to note how many people are willing to take the part of the cheating husband and claim it's all the wife's fault. If she had been more warm to him, he hadn't been forced to find it elsewhere... I don't buy that excuse for a second in real life, nor do I buy it in the game.
Anora even admits that she loved Cailan, even if she knew exactly who he was. She was willing to look the other way, for the sake of her duty, as women many times have been forced to do throughout history...

And it couldn't have been Cailan who was infertile? that 'stud'? no way....

What sleeping around are we talking about exactly? I saw no direct mention of any infidelity on Cailan's part, other than people making some huge, huge assumptions based on RTO letters. By all accounts I saw in game Cailan was completely smitten and overwhelmed by Anora.

Did I miss something important or are people just assuming?

Anora herself says that Cailan was cheating on her. It's not assumption. Loghain is the only one who thinks Cailan was cheating with the Empress of Orlais.

[ReubenLiew]

Anora says that Cailan had his mistresses, but he keeps it under wraps. She mentions this to you if you ask her to marry Alistair and you yourself are in a relationship with Alistair.

[Cutlass Jack]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Anora says that Cailan had his mistresses, but he keeps it under wraps. She mentions this to you if you ask her to marry Alistair and you yourself are in a relationship with Alistair.

Ahh thats why I never heard even the slightest mention of it. I never would consider asking her to marry Alistair if I were in a relationship with him. Eww. Never once came up in multiple playthroughs.

Thanks!

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 24 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[Elfseeker]

I meant relations between herself and her intended. involving a third party in the heir-making process would be considered 'bothersome', like as not. And her opposite would be looked at(by her) as insufficient for the task, thus lowering appeal in her eyes. Nothing more.



As for the cheating thing; yes, we get it confirmed. We do, however, NOT get a timeline for these happenings. Could have been all the while...could be back in the first few years. Would have asked about have vs had but since he's dead the point is moot. there is only 'had'.

[Yrkoon]

Elfseeker wrote...

-Not- Like her daddy. Her daddy just wanted the military might and efficient chain of command being on the top would get him.

Daddy is a known, legendary hero of Fereldan.   He's already on top by virtue of his past deeds and his blood.  What he *wants* is  to fill the void left by the now-dead Caelin.   Even Anora points out that he didn't even wait for Caelin's body to get cold before he  decided to fill that void.  We can argue for 10 more pages about  how that's so "evil" and "power-hungry" but the fact remains that  Anora is  chip off the old block.  She's just as powerhungry, and her plots are just as labrynthine.

Never, to my knowledge, did he claim the slightest interest in ruling as king.

Really?  You don't think so?   So  you have a different take on the whole cutscene that occurs  in Denerim after the Ostagar disaster?  You know, the part where  Logain  demands that everyone  help him rebuild what was lost at Ostagar, and where he angerly  warns all the nobles that he'll brook dessention from ANYONE? 

Sounds to me  like he's already taken the mantle, and started  barking out the new rules--- as was his plan all along.

Thought; the civil war is because Loghain took power. So she -does- have armies on her side...so to speak.

No, she doesn't.   The reason why  a civil war was brewing is because there were two opposing  Forces:  Logains, and Eamons.     At that point in the game  Anora has nothing.     She's -dependent-.   She's on the fence waiting for one side to weaken so that she can join the other side  and keep the crown. 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[Maria Caliban]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Yeah, everything is placed exactly so that no one will have an easy time with having children. Hence why I think that the throne does not have an heir will be a major plotpoint later.

I agree with this, especially if Morrigan is Meric's daughter as some speculate.

Elfseeker wrote...

Take a 'mistress' of her own, you mean? I suppose...but suspect it would sour relations a bit.

I'll lend her out Zevran. She should have a decent chance had showing she's firtile, which she doesn't get with Alistair or the DudeWarden.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 février 2010 - 07:51 .

[Kryyptehk]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

Anora says that Cailan had his mistresses, but he keeps it under wraps. She mentions this to you if you ask her to marry Alistair and you yourself are in a relationship with Alistair.

Ahh thats why I never heard even the slightest mention of it. I never would consider asking her to marry Alistair if I were in a relationship with him. Eww. Never once came up in multiple playthroughs.

Thanks!

My Blood Mage was his mistress when he was married to Anora. That conversation is the best in game

[Elfseeker]

Incidentally, a possible romantic link between king and empress lends new light to Loghain's initial betrayal...no doubt he sees it as merely beating the empire to the punch.

[Kryyptehk]

Elfseeker wrote...

Incidentally, a possible romantic link between king and empress lends new light to Loghain's initial betrayal...no doubt he sees it as merely beating the empire to the punch.

He doesn't start making assumptions until seeing the documents in RtO, so I don't think that instigated his betrayal. But I can't imagine he'd be happy with his daughter's husband cheating on her, Orlesian or not.

[Maria Caliban]

It would have been nice if he thought that though. I still find Loghain's reasoning lacking when it comes to Ostigar, but I think learning that Cailan planned to put Anora aside and possibly start up something with Celene I would add greatly to the betrayal.

[Kryyptehk]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It would have been nice if he thought that though. I still find Loghain's reasoning lacking when it comes to Ostigar, but I think learning that Cailan planned to put Anora aside and possibly start up something with Celene I would add greatly to the betrayal.

Well, Loghain didn't plan on betraying Cailan until after getting to Ostagar, I'd bet it was the exact moment when Cailan talked about the Orlesian Wardens. But those letters would have added a certain layer of "Loghain isn't totally batcrap crazy" that is severely lacking.

Modifié par Kryyptehk, 24 février 2010 - 08:01 .

[Maria Caliban]

I think it's me. "Over 30 years ago, the Orlesians invaded our land and I have a paranoid distrust of them" makes sense, but leaving Cailan to die? For me, "And after years of cheating on Anora, that bastard was going to leave my little girl for some Orlesian harlot!" would dovetail beautifully, especially after Katrel + Maric and Rowan.

But I think I just prefer motivation to be more personal.