Our physics has as much validity on Thedas as Aristotelian physics do.
And you still can not deal with magical communication, which we know exists in game.
Modifié par mousestalker, 03 mars 2010 - 10:33 .
Anora misunderstood.
Débuté par
Elfseeker
, févr. 24 2010 05:46
#501
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 10:33
mousestalker
-
- Members
- 16 945 messages
You are assuming that the physics of Thedas arethe same as ours. Yet we know this not to be true. We do not have magic. We do not even have crossbow bolts that do +10 against darkspawn. We do not have darkspawn. We can not stun people with the powers of our brains. We can not stab ourselves and expect to slay foemen with the power of our blood.
Our physics has as much validity on Thedas as Aristotelian physics do.
And you still can not deal with magical communication, which we know exists in game.
Our physics has as much validity on Thedas as Aristotelian physics do.
And you still can not deal with magical communication, which we know exists in game.
Retour en haut
#502
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 10:50
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
mousestalker wrote...
You are assuming that the physics of Thedas arethe same as ours. Yet we know this not to be true. We do not have magic. We do not even have crossbow bolts that do +10 against darkspawn. We do not have darkspawn. We can not stun people with the powers of our brains. We can not stab ourselves and expect to slay foemen with the power of our blood.
Our physics has as much validity on Thedas as Aristotelian physics do.
And you still can not deal with magical communication, which we know exists in game.
Magical Communications does exist. Instantantaneous Magical Communications does not. Did you not consider what the implications of what instantaneous magical communications would mean? The entire crisis at the circle happened because communications, magical or otherwise, is NOT instantaneous.
So basically you are trying to claim that there is somehow a sort of magical communication that is unavailable even to the circle mages that we see no evidence for anywhere in the game, and it just HAPPENED to be used to summon Ser Cauthrien with the information needed (from the very lowest classes lest you forget) and it was NOT available to Arl Howe or more to the point the Armies of Logain and even King Cailan.
Are you really trying to claim this?
You may as well say that invisible pink aliens flew in and told Ser Cauthrien what was going on.
Or you can deal in reality and just admit that Anora set you up.
-Polaris
#503
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 12:25
KendallX23
-
- Members
- 1 462 messages
or u can see the fact that it's a slip up from Bioware...how does Queen Anora or her maid knows we will kill Howe ?Maybe we convinced him instead of killing him...I call here a more complex magic...called devs magic...There are a few inconsistences with everything....Cauthrien must have been hiding that many people somewhere good..that nobody saw them...even though u went through most of the place during the mission.And don't say they were outside...cause then we would not be sure she would be fast enough to arrive at the scene before u come back to Anora...
#504
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:12
mousestalker
-
- Members
- 16 945 messages
Invisible pink aliens did tell Ser Cauthrien. Or rather that explanation is just as good as any other. We're discussing a fantasy world with magic. And I am Queen of Antiva.
Don't argue with royalty.
Don't argue with royalty.
#505
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:37
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
mousestalker wrote...
Invisible pink aliens did tell Ser Cauthrien. Or rather that explanation is just as good as any other. We're discussing a fantasy world with magic. And I am Queen of Antiva.
Don't argue with royalty.
I didn't know that Carroll the Templar posted here. That explains a lot.
-Polaris
#506
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:39
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
KendallX23 wrote...
or u can see the fact that it's a slip up from Bioware...how does Queen Anora or her maid knows we will kill Howe ?Maybe we convinced him instead of killing him...I call here a more complex magic...called devs magic...There are a few inconsistences with everything....Cauthrien must have been hiding that many people somewhere good..that nobody saw them...even though u went through most of the place during the mission.And don't say they were outside...cause then we would not be sure she would be fast enough to arrive at the scene before u come back to Anora...
Why? YOU are the one that is demanding that it be a slip-up from bioware essentially adding needless complexity and metagaming when a perfectly good and reasonable explaination exists (indeed the only reasonable one) exists without resorting to any of that nonsense. You just don't want to accept what in character Ser Cauthrien's arrive with her information means.
I appeal to Occam's Razor.
-Polaris
#507
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:40
Vanderbilt_Grad
-
- Members
- 184 messages
Mousetalker ....
Anyone can invent arguments that involve invisible pink aliens. However such arguments can't be tested and require the existance of ... well invisible pink aliens for which we have no evidence. Such arguments have failed the test of logical converstation since at least the time of the ancient Greeks.
Polaris is correct if you make one single assumption ... namely that the writers didn't flub this. Provided this isn't a huge mistake on their part his is the only reasonable conclusion.
And for the record I have no dislike for Queen Anora. It's a simple case of facts are facts in spite of the invisible pink aliens that stole all the color from your avitar's hair.
Anyone can invent arguments that involve invisible pink aliens. However such arguments can't be tested and require the existance of ... well invisible pink aliens for which we have no evidence. Such arguments have failed the test of logical converstation since at least the time of the ancient Greeks.
Polaris is correct if you make one single assumption ... namely that the writers didn't flub this. Provided this isn't a huge mistake on their part his is the only reasonable conclusion.
And for the record I have no dislike for Queen Anora. It's a simple case of facts are facts in spite of the invisible pink aliens that stole all the color from your avitar's hair.
#508
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:51
Vanderbilt_Grad
-
- Members
- 184 messages
Oh and Anora basically tells the PC Warden that the mage will be with Howe.
It doesn't really matter if Howe is loyal to Loghain at that point ... either way the ONLY likely way that the mage is going to release the barrier is is Howe is dead.
I will add one further wrinkle. After the barrier drops what stops Anora from sneaking out in her guard outfit? She can and does escape this way once you attack Ser Cauthrien. When sending you off to get rid of the barrier she knows that your (the Warden's) cover will almost certainly be blown when you meet her next. What other logical reason would she have to wait for you except to make sure that you encounter Ser Cauthrien?
It doesn't really matter if Howe is loyal to Loghain at that point ... either way the ONLY likely way that the mage is going to release the barrier is is Howe is dead.
I will add one further wrinkle. After the barrier drops what stops Anora from sneaking out in her guard outfit? She can and does escape this way once you attack Ser Cauthrien. When sending you off to get rid of the barrier she knows that your (the Warden's) cover will almost certainly be blown when you meet her next. What other logical reason would she have to wait for you except to make sure that you encounter Ser Cauthrien?
Modifié par Vanderbilt_Grad, 04 mars 2010 - 01:52 .
#509
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:54
Vanderbilt_Grad
-
- Members
- 184 messages
Final note ... trying to get the Warden arrested is not such a terrible thing IMHO, when seen from her POV.
#510
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 05:14
KendallX23
-
- Members
- 1 462 messages
yea..well i still call for a writing error on Bioware behalf..but fine if u want to find an ingame purpose...
Writing slip is just as good and resonable explanation too....because..it's a game...,
Writing slip is just as good and resonable explanation too....because..it's a game...,
#511
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 05:26
Realmzmaster
-
- Members
- 5 510 messages
If it is a writing slip, then BioWare needs to get new alpha and beta testers. If it is a slip it should have been caught.
#512
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 05:50
CybAnt1
-
- Members
- 3 659 messages
I agree Anora always seemed to me to be a bit cold and calculating and manipulative ... well, she is Loghain's daughter and doesn't fall far from the tree. That's why I always felt she set you up at the palace. She attempts to justify her more obvious betrayal later but even that rings hollow. And Eamon does warn you about her.
I never played Male Noble Human but obviously from reading I have seen you can wind up marrying her and becoming king, errr, excuse me, prince-consort. Well, obviously, that's the perfect example of medieval arranged marriage, as it's obvious she doesn't much like you let alone love you (although she does find you useful), and you realize she's ... who she is, but you marry her because it's a path to the throne. So you agree to a loveless marriage with her, but the bonus is Zevran or Leliana can be your side girl ... or guy... on the sly.
The irony of this is she's relatively pretty, as the female chars in the game go; so much so she's inspired a whole plethora of "sleep with her or her lookalike" mods.
I think it would be interesting if there was a way to "soften" her, "romance" her, and marry her because you actually fall in love with her and vice versa. I think her character as given is not one my char could fall in love with, thus only an arranged marriage is possible. But it would be interesting if there was some way to "change" her (a la Viconia in BG2).
I never played Male Noble Human but obviously from reading I have seen you can wind up marrying her and becoming king, errr, excuse me, prince-consort. Well, obviously, that's the perfect example of medieval arranged marriage, as it's obvious she doesn't much like you let alone love you (although she does find you useful), and you realize she's ... who she is, but you marry her because it's a path to the throne. So you agree to a loveless marriage with her, but the bonus is Zevran or Leliana can be your side girl ... or guy... on the sly.
The irony of this is she's relatively pretty, as the female chars in the game go; so much so she's inspired a whole plethora of "sleep with her or her lookalike" mods.
I think it would be interesting if there was a way to "soften" her, "romance" her, and marry her because you actually fall in love with her and vice versa. I think her character as given is not one my char could fall in love with, thus only an arranged marriage is possible. But it would be interesting if there was some way to "change" her (a la Viconia in BG2).
#513
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 09:20
Ahzrei
-
- Members
- 391 messages
I agree with you OP. That's why I went to so much trouble to marry her. I genuinely like her. And she's gorgeous.
#514
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 07:30
voidwarrior
-
- Members
- 30 messages
" The Queen lies to you when you suggest it, however. ... "
You seem to be under the illusion that your interpretation of the game is the only one and that your version of events is factual. Well here's a news flash - it's not. Queen Anora does not lie to you nor does she double cross you.
"Bollocks. It is possible. You go back through the Arl's Bedroom, go into the Dungeon and then take the other exit out (that Howe's master key now opens). You will exit on the other side of the Foyer. You WILL have to fight off all of Howe's men if you do this, but you CAN do it. However, Anora WILL NOT FOLLOW YOU into the Dungeon.
I know what I am talking about here. It's a definate hole in the game."
Bull****e. I have just tried this and Queen Anora follows you but the game "mechanics" prevent you from entering the Dungeon - Anora does not cause this to occur - infact she does even say a thing to you as you attempt to enter the dungeon. If after killing Howe (before going back to Anora and unlocking her room) you leave from the other dungeon exit and kill all the remaining guards, when you enter the foyer there is no Ser Cauthrien or party there. Only when you unlock the door to Anora's room does Cauthrien appear - unlocking the door acts as a trigger, again its a part of the game "mechanics" and has diddly squat to do with Anora.
"Queen Anora is a double-crossing rat. The evidence for this is overwhelming. -Polaris"
Evidence - you mean your hate warped lopsided misinterpretation. What you have got to realise is that not everyone interprets things the way you do. Queen Anora has no vested interest in having the PC arrested as she needs your support at the landsmeet in order to oppose her father and retain her throne. Its pretty likely that Loghain and Howe were planning to prevent Anora from attending the Landsmeet, so she needs you to rescue her. Ironically - she will even support you if you lie to her about supporting her bid to remain on the throne. Only if you openly refuse to support her bid will she likewise oppose you - which is not back stabbing or double crossing, she is merely acting in her own best interests.
Queen Anora The Great Rules.
You seem to be under the illusion that your interpretation of the game is the only one and that your version of events is factual. Well here's a news flash - it's not. Queen Anora does not lie to you nor does she double cross you.
"Bollocks. It is possible. You go back through the Arl's Bedroom, go into the Dungeon and then take the other exit out (that Howe's master key now opens). You will exit on the other side of the Foyer. You WILL have to fight off all of Howe's men if you do this, but you CAN do it. However, Anora WILL NOT FOLLOW YOU into the Dungeon.
I know what I am talking about here. It's a definate hole in the game."
Bull****e. I have just tried this and Queen Anora follows you but the game "mechanics" prevent you from entering the Dungeon - Anora does not cause this to occur - infact she does even say a thing to you as you attempt to enter the dungeon. If after killing Howe (before going back to Anora and unlocking her room) you leave from the other dungeon exit and kill all the remaining guards, when you enter the foyer there is no Ser Cauthrien or party there. Only when you unlock the door to Anora's room does Cauthrien appear - unlocking the door acts as a trigger, again its a part of the game "mechanics" and has diddly squat to do with Anora.
"Queen Anora is a double-crossing rat. The evidence for this is overwhelming. -Polaris"
Evidence - you mean your hate warped lopsided misinterpretation. What you have got to realise is that not everyone interprets things the way you do. Queen Anora has no vested interest in having the PC arrested as she needs your support at the landsmeet in order to oppose her father and retain her throne. Its pretty likely that Loghain and Howe were planning to prevent Anora from attending the Landsmeet, so she needs you to rescue her. Ironically - she will even support you if you lie to her about supporting her bid to remain on the throne. Only if you openly refuse to support her bid will she likewise oppose you - which is not back stabbing or double crossing, she is merely acting in her own best interests.
Queen Anora The Great Rules.
Modifié par voidwarrior, 05 mars 2010 - 02:14 .
#515
Posté 05 mars 2010 - 06:05
IanPolaris
-
- Members
- 9 650 messages
Voidwarrior,
I'm not going to argue about it further. If you don't want to resort to Invisible Pink Aliens or that the writers made a mistake or game mechanics (all pretty much the same thing and unprovable in a logical discussion) then the only logical conclusion you can draw about Ser Cauthriens incredible timing with the information she had is that Queen Anora double-crossed you. There is no other reasonable and logical conclusion without resorting to needless complexity.
-Polaris
I'm not going to argue about it further. If you don't want to resort to Invisible Pink Aliens or that the writers made a mistake or game mechanics (all pretty much the same thing and unprovable in a logical discussion) then the only logical conclusion you can draw about Ser Cauthriens incredible timing with the information she had is that Queen Anora double-crossed you. There is no other reasonable and logical conclusion without resorting to needless complexity.
-Polaris
#516
Posté 09 mars 2010 - 01:42
voidwarrior
-
- Members
- 30 messages
IanPolaris,
Consider this - after killing Howe I took the other exit out of the dungeon - proceeded to kill all the remaining guards. Then went to the foyer and found no Cauthrien and party - stepped outside and likewise found no sign of Cauthrien and party. Since I had not returned to Anora - she and Erlina had no way of knowing whether I had killed Howe and party or died in the attempt. Only when you open the door to her room does Cauthrien and party magically appear in the foyer. So Anora had no opportunity to tell Cauthrien that you had killed Howe.
No pink aliens, either game mechanics, plot problems or spies following you informed her that you had entered the Arl of Denerim's estate. (or a combination of all of these.) I reinterate Queen Anora has no vested interest in having the PC arrested as she needs your support at the landsmeet in order to oppose her father and retain her throne. If the whole rescue had been a trap then Ser Cauthrien would have already been waiting for your arrival at the estate and along with Howe could have easily arrested you. (unless you have some seriously modded armour, accessories and weapons)
Without insight reason and logic are barren and limited. In quantum physics 2 particles separated by a vast distance are in instant communication - thus exceeding the speed of light as no medium is needed to carry a signal. On a quantum level everything is connected. So instantaneous magical communication has a scientific basis. Magic and imagination are intimately linked - so the mage can travel from 1 world to another in the blink of an eye. Abandon the cluttered complexity of reason and logic and embrace the empty silent mystery of direct insight.
Beo gan scagairí.
Consider this - after killing Howe I took the other exit out of the dungeon - proceeded to kill all the remaining guards. Then went to the foyer and found no Cauthrien and party - stepped outside and likewise found no sign of Cauthrien and party. Since I had not returned to Anora - she and Erlina had no way of knowing whether I had killed Howe and party or died in the attempt. Only when you open the door to her room does Cauthrien and party magically appear in the foyer. So Anora had no opportunity to tell Cauthrien that you had killed Howe.
No pink aliens, either game mechanics, plot problems or spies following you informed her that you had entered the Arl of Denerim's estate. (or a combination of all of these.) I reinterate Queen Anora has no vested interest in having the PC arrested as she needs your support at the landsmeet in order to oppose her father and retain her throne. If the whole rescue had been a trap then Ser Cauthrien would have already been waiting for your arrival at the estate and along with Howe could have easily arrested you. (unless you have some seriously modded armour, accessories and weapons)
Without insight reason and logic are barren and limited. In quantum physics 2 particles separated by a vast distance are in instant communication - thus exceeding the speed of light as no medium is needed to carry a signal. On a quantum level everything is connected. So instantaneous magical communication has a scientific basis. Magic and imagination are intimately linked - so the mage can travel from 1 world to another in the blink of an eye. Abandon the cluttered complexity of reason and logic and embrace the empty silent mystery of direct insight.
Beo gan scagairí.
Modifié par voidwarrior, 09 mars 2010 - 02:02 .
