515 réponses à ce sujet

[Xandurpein]

Yrkoon wrote...

Really?  You don't think so?   So  you have a different take on the whole cutscene that occurs  in Denerim after the Ostagar disaster?  You know, the part where  Logain  demands that everyone  help him rebuild what was lost at Ostagar, and where he angerly  warns all the nobles that he'll brook dessention from ANYONE? 

Sounds to me  like he's already taken the mantle, and started  barking out the new rules--- as was his plan all along.
 

Loghain is ready to defend Fereldan at any cost. If a King, like Maric, does a good job of it, he is happy to let him rule and stick to leading armies. If however the King is dead and the nobles in the country seem to be, to him,  squabbling fools he will do everything he can to save the country from what he percieves as ruin. One of the reasons why Loghain is a bad ruler, a lot worse than Anora in fact, is that his lack of political understanding. He thinks like a general, and like many military men who have come to power in history, he becomes an inefficient political leader, because he can only think in terms brow-beating the opposition into submission and respecting thew 'chain of command'.

But whatever his faults are, I don't for a second think he did assume command for a simple lust for power. He did it because he thought he was saving Fereldan.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 24 février 2010 - 08:12 .

[Cazlee]

It was the opposite for me, Loghaine's reaction to the letters just proved even further to me how paranoid he is when it comes to Orlais. There was no evidence that I could see of a romance between Cailain and the Emperess. I got the impression from the note Cailan crumpled in anger that he loved Anora, and I also got the impression from Queen Anora's codex that she was highly respected by the Emperess.

Modifié par Cazlee, 24 février 2010 - 08:12 .

[Kryyptehk]

Cazlee wrote...

It was the opposite for me, Loghaine's reaction to the letters just proved even further to me how paranoid he is when it comes to Orlais. There was no evidence that I could see of a romance between Cailain and the Emperess. I got the impression from the note Cailan crumpled in anger that he loved Anora, and I also got the impression from Queen Anora's codex that she was highly respected by the Emperess.

Are you talking about the one from Eamon. Yeah, I totally thought that too. I think that he loves Anora, but I think he is young and idealistic. He loves every single woman he is with, while is with them.

[Xandurpein]

Cazlee wrote...

It was the opposite for me, Loghaine's reaction to the letters just proved even further to me how paranoid he is when it comes to Orlais. There was no evidence that I could see of a romance between Cailain and the Emperess. I got the impression from the note Cailan crumpled in anger that he loved Anora, and I also got the impression from Queen Anora's codex that she was highly respected by the Emperess.

The key evidence is the point in the Codex where it says that the note from the Empress to Cailan was written in an "unusually familiar tone". That is not assumption, but a quote from the Codex. It can only be interpreted that Cailan and the Empress knew each other quite well, and that this is something Cailan has kept secret from those around him.

Whether this means that Cailan was planning to marry the Empress or not is of course open for debate, but cementing an alliance in those days often included a royal marriage.

[Elfseeker]

There is that. Quite forgot about the empress' high praise. And of course both King and Queen being on pleasant terms with the empress would easily lead to a 'familiar' tone in their missives...?



But then there's the curling, and I seem to recall it being individually adressed...hohum.

[Cazlee]

Kryyptehk wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

It was the opposite for me, Loghaine's reaction to the letters just proved even further to me how paranoid he is when it comes to Orlais. There was no evidence that I could see of a romance between Cailain and the Emperess. I got the impression from the note Cailan crumpled in anger that he loved Anora, and I also got the impression from Queen Anora's codex that she was highly respected by the Emperess.

Are you talking about the one from Eamon. Yeah, I totally thought that too. I think that he loves Anora, but I think he is young and idealistic. He loves every single woman he is with, while is with them.

Lol - I can now fully understand the extreme of the Queen Anora hate... it's far easier to blame anora than to accept that the martyr king had some faults.

[Herr Uhl]

Xandurpein wrote...

Whether this means that Cailan was planning to marry the Empress or not is of course open for debate, but cementing an alliance in those days often included a royal marriage.

Not between rulers, between a high nobleman or someone that is down the line for inheriting the rule, yes.

A marriage between rulers would mean a merging of the countries, not an alliance. And Orlais being the bigger country, Ferelden would become little more than a fief to Orlais.

[Herr Uhl]

Cazlee wrote...

Kryyptehk wrote...

Are you talking about the one from Eamon. Yeah, I totally thought that too. I think that he loves Anora, but I think he is young and idealistic. He loves every single woman he is with, while is with them.

Lol - I can now fully understand the extreme of the Queen Anora hate... it's far easier to blame anora than to accept that the martyr king had some faults.

Disliking Cailan maybe has a part in my view on Anora. I wouldn't want him dead, but he sure as hell wouldn't be someone I'd swear loyalty too. This is royalty though, infidelity is to be expected.

[Maria Caliban]

Cazlee wrote...

It was the opposite for me, Loghaine's reaction to the letters just proved even further to me how paranoid he is when it comes to Orlais. There was no evidence that I could see of a romance between Cailain and the Emperess. I got the impression from the note Cailan crumpled in anger that he loved Anora, and I also got the impression from Queen Anora's codex that she was highly respected by the Emperess.

We know Cailan got around. No reason to think that he wouldn't get around to the Empress either.

That doesn't mean that he was going to dump Anora, marry Celene I, and hand over Ferelden to the Orlesians, but a bit of evidence that he might is all Loghain might need.

[Xandurpein]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Whether this means that Cailan was planning to marry the Empress or not is of course open for debate, but cementing an alliance in those days often included a royal marriage.

Not between rulers, between a high nobleman or someone that is down the line for inheriting the rule, yes.

A marriage between rulers would mean a merging of the countries, not an alliance. And Orlais being the bigger country, Ferelden would become little more than a fief to Orlais.

Agreed. I didn't mean to hint that the marriage wouldn't have been a scandal if it was true, my mistake. That's is also why I'm not convinced that even Cailan would be stupid enough to actually go through with such a preposterous idea, maybe remarrying some high-ranking Orlesian noblewoman.

[Herr Uhl]

Xandurpein wrote...

Agreed. I didn't mean to hint that the marriage wouldn't have been a scandal if it was true, my mistake. That's is also why I'm not convinced that even Cailan would be stupid enough to actually go through with such a preposterous idea, maybe remarrying some high-ranking Orlesian noblewoman.

And this is why Loghain was right in incapacitating Eamon, the mere idea is ludicrous. What was he thinking?

[Maria Caliban]

Herr Uhl wrote...
This is royalty though, infidelity is to be expected.

Only in dwarven lands is infidelity expected. It would be more correct to say that society doesn't punish people for infidelity as long as it's discreet. The idea that it’s “fine” for men to fool around is a product of societies where women are chattel – Ferelden is not such a society.

[Herr Uhl]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
This is royalty though, infidelity is to be expected.

Only in dwarven lands is infidelity expected. It would be more correct to say that society doesn't punish people for infidelity as long as it's discreet. The idea that it’s “fine” for men to fool around is a product of societies where women are chattel – Ferelden is not such a society.

I see it as an act of power, the more power you wield, the higher the chance of a mistress (male or female), especially when they have an arranged marriage (they do right? correct me if I'm wrong).

And I wouldn't guess that Cailan had the best influence when it came to keeping himself *points to Maric*. Though having an equal society with a despot is very rare.

[DarkCamel]

As for who is infertile, remember that no "royal bastard" of Cailan's ever shows up in the epilogues either, despite Cailan's numerous mistresses.



Any child of Cailan, if they exist, also has claims to the throne by blood, as Alistair does. The child would be a direct blood descendent of Maric/Cailan. In fact, given Anora's insistence on Alistair formally forswearing his claim on the throne, an Anora ruling alone would see any illegitimate child of Cailan's as a genuine threat to her monarchy.



As for Anora, there are logical reasons that Anora does not have a child in the epilogues - she only marries a tainted HN, but does not marry in any other scenario. A unmarried queen would avoid pregnancy.



So my bet is on Cailan as the one who is shooting blanks...

[nos_astra]

DarkCamel wrote...
Any child of Cailan, if they exist, also has claims to the throne by blood, as Alistair does.

Illegitime children aren't in line for the throne by default. There are very special circumstances that make Alistair a possibility, like Eamon and Loghain acknowledging that he in fact is a son of Maric. And he still needs the support of the Landsmeet to ascent to the throne.

So any bastards of Cailan probably don't have the same chance.

As for Cailan shooting blanks. Yes, maybe, but I think there is the possibility that there are methods of contraconception - yes, it's a funny thought but still. Magic, you know. ;-)

[Xandurpein]

klarabella wrote...

As for Cailan shooting blanks. Yes, maybe, but I think there is the possibility that there are methods of contraconception - yes, it's a funny thought but still. Magic, you know. ;-)

Soo... um... what is your point? That Anora (or Cailan) is deliberatly trying to not get pregnant becuase she (or he) is not using an unknown way of getting pregnant you haven't got a single shred of evidence exists? Or are you using 'magic' as an euphemism for Anora getting lovers on the side so she could get pregnant anyway if she really wanted it? Either way, it would be helpful if you spelled out what you mean...

[nos_astra]

Anora mentions that Cailan had his mistresses. Some say the fact that there is no evidence of any illegitime children hints that Cailan was sterile and blaming Anora for the lack of an heir is unfair.

I simply said the lack of bastards doesn't mean anything and the only hint we have is what is mentioned ingame - the rumour and the aussumption that Anora may be barren.

I also wanted to say that even if Cailan had children with another woman they aren't very likely to pop up to claim the throne because they have nobody to back them up.

Edited for clarity.

Modifié par klarabella, 24 février 2010 - 10:33 .

[Maria Caliban]

There is birth control in Thedas. Wynne and Alistair mention it during one of their banters.

Alistair: So you... mentioned you had a son? What happened to him?
Wynne: I honestly don't know, Alistair. He was... taken from me. Such births are seldom, as there are ways to prevent it, but it does happen.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 24 février 2010 - 10:31 .

[nos_astra]

They do?

Edit: Ah, I see, thanks!

Modifié par klarabella, 24 février 2010 - 10:34 .

[Leonia]

Xandurpein wrote...

klarabella wrote...

As for Cailan shooting blanks. Yes, maybe, but I think there is the possibility that there are methods of contraconception - yes, it's a funny thought but still. Magic, you know. ;-)

Soo... um... what is your point? That Anora (or Cailan) is deliberatly trying to not get pregnant becuase she (or he) is not using an unknown way of getting pregnant you haven't got a single shred of evidence exists? Or are you using 'magic' as an euphemism for Anora getting lovers on the side so she could get pregnant anyway if she really wanted it? Either way, it would be helpful if you spelled out what you mean...

Wynne mentions it is hard for mages to get pregnant (when she talks about how she defied the odds and had a child of her own). What's to say contraception doesn't exist in Ferelden? Though I am still perplexed at why Anora hasn't produced a child, surely she realises that she cannot live forever and she would want to have an heir to pass the crown on to. Or perhaps she is barren. Or maybe Cailen was. Whatever the reason, I am sure we'll find out in the future when we have to help decide who rules Ferelden (again).

[Yrkoon]

Xandurpein wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Really?  You don't think so?   So  you have a different take on the whole cutscene that occurs  in Denerim after the Ostagar disaster?  You know, the part where  Logain  demands that everyone  help him rebuild what was lost at Ostagar, and where he angerly  warns all the nobles that he'll brook dessention from ANYONE? 

Sounds to me  like he's already taken the mantle, and started  barking out the new rules--- as was his plan all along.
 

Loghain is ready to defend Fereldan at any cost. If a King, like Maric, does a good job of it, he is happy to let him rule and stick to leading armies. If however the King is dead and the nobles in the country seem to be, to him,  squabbling fools he will do everything he can to save the country from what he percieves as ruin.

Right.  Which brings us back to his decision to plunge the country into turmoil by  leaving Caelin  alone on the battlefield... to die.  And  then trying to assassinate/poison  the competition right afterwords.  Not to mention the fact that he really didn't  NEED to do any of that anyway.  Fereldan still has a, popular, ruling Queen at that point...


Again,  looks to me like it was his plan all along... prior to the Ostagar battle.

Even Anora suspects that it was... 

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[Xandurpein]

Yrkoon wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Really?  You don't think so?   So  you have a different take on the whole cutscene that occurs  in Denerim after the Ostagar disaster?  You know, the part where  Logain  demands that everyone  help him rebuild what was lost at Ostagar, and where he angerly  warns all the nobles that he'll brook dessention from ANYONE? 

Sounds to me  like he's already taken the mantle, and started  barking out the new rules--- as was his plan all along.
 

Loghain is ready to defend Fereldan at any cost. If a King, like Maric, does a good job of it, he is happy to let him rule and stick to leading armies. If however the King is dead and the nobles in the country seem to be, to him,  squabbling fools he will do everything he can to save the country from what he percieves as ruin.

Right.  Which brings us back to his decision to plunge the country into turmoil by  leaving Caelin  alone on the battlefield... to die.  And  then trying to assassinate/poison  the competition right afterwords.  Not to mention the fact that he really didn't  NEED to do any of that anyway.  Fereldan still has a, popular, ruling Queen at that point...


Again,  looks to me like it was his plan all along... prior to the Ostagar battle.

Even Anora suspects that it was... 

I guess it's derailing the thread, as it is about Anora, but yes. He was planning to do something about Cailan, whom he thought was betraying Fereldan. The point is that all the things he did, and I'm the first to admit that I think al ot of it was wrong and even evil, he did to defend Fereldan as he saw it. It was never a question of grabbing power for the sake of power. He grabbed power, because he, mistakenly, thought he was the only one who could save Fereldan - from Orlais, from the darkspawn and even from Cailan and Eamon.

[sylvanaerie]

Yrkoon wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Really?  You don't think so?   So  you have a different take on the whole cutscene that occurs  in Denerim after the Ostagar disaster?  You know, the part where  Logain  demands that everyone  help him rebuild what was lost at Ostagar, and where he angerly  warns all the nobles that he'll brook dessention from ANYONE? 

Sounds to me  like he's already taken the mantle, and started  barking out the new rules--- as was his plan all along.
 

Loghain is ready to defend Fereldan at any cost. If a King, like Maric, does a good job of it, he is happy to let him rule and stick to leading armies. If however the King is dead and the nobles in the country seem to be, to him,  squabbling fools he will do everything he can to save the country from what he percieves as ruin.

Right.  Which brings us back to his decision to plunge the country into turmoil by  leaving Caelin  alone on the battlefield... to die.  And  then trying to assassinate/poison  the competition right afterwords.  Not to mention the fact that he really didn't  NEED to do any of that anyway.  Fereldan still has a, popular, ruling Queen at that point...


Again,  looks to me like it was his plan all along... prior to the Ostagar battle.

Even Anora suspects that it was... 

Actually if you speak to the Redcliffe knight in Lothering you hear Eamon fell ill PRIOR to the events in Ostagar.  Its not a plot hole either as you can then suggest Loghain may have had something to do with it and the knight doesn't want to contemplate the implications of what that means. 

I think all along Loghain planned it unless there are just glaring plot holes in the story?

[Fishy]

However, compared to Maric as a brave ruler who would fight for her kingdom...well she isn't that. I don't think she actually cares about Ferelden, just her position

--------

Exactly!

She's just Whoring Power.

She's basicly the Bhelen female version .. -





*Anora even admits that she loved Cailan, even if she knew exactly who he was*

Sight .. Like leliana said .. A Nice babe just have to whisper tender word and they fall at her feet within a sec.Seriously if she was ugly and not charming. . you would prob put her on a poop darkspawn pit and ****** into it.

[nos_astra]

Suprez30 wrote...
*Anora even admits that she loved Cailan, even if she knew exactly who he was*

I always doubted that her words really mean what we think they mean. Maybe she cared for him like an annoying little brother but love like in loving wife like in respect? No. I think she's manipulating there.

Very funny her epilogue card. She won't re-marry because no one can live up to Daddy's example, I believe.