515 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

[krylo]

Vicious wrote...

Are you kidding? Half the people who play this game betray Anora FIRST by announcing her identity to Ser Cauthrien who otherwise is oblivious and lets her walk away.

It's only a betrayal if you allow Ser Cauthrien to take the Queen.  It's a perfectly viable and justifiable attempt to get Ser Cauthrien and her contingent of guards to back off if they were loyal to the queen.  Anora jumps the gun, however, and starts a fight without seeing whether or not you planned on letting Ser Cauthrien take her.

Which, considering how useful she would be as an ally, I doubt most people would do.

Maybe if people didn't just click past dialogue they'd realize this. But nope, they blame her for running away instead of being put wherever Loghain wants her

I don't think anyone blames her for exiting the scene, they blame her for getting you attacked in the first place and for betraying you at the landsmeet even though she says she won't.  

Her 'Right' to the throne is more concrete than Alistair's, who is quite literally an undeclared Bastard of a dead king [not even the most RECENT king] and should have zero claim and be laughed out of the Landsmeet - alas the poor guy is pigeon holed into the path the second he mentions that he is a bastard son of Maric. I really feel for him.

That is not how Feudal Succession works.

Anora has zero right to the throne.  Read the epilogues when you HFN marries Alistair.  You don't become Queen Regent or ruler of any sort.  You become Queen Consort, which is feudal talk for 'The King's Trophy Wife That No One Listens To'.

She's the medieval equivalent of The First Lady.

To call her traitorous is just the kind of incomprehensible 'logic' that is all over these forums.

Like your post?

Modifié par krylo, 24 février 2010 - 05:56 .

[krylo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

No.

She is bad for doing it in the way that she does.

She promises you her support as thanks for saving her from Howe but she was never in real danger from Howe.  The whole thing, from the beginning, was her manipulating The Warden into creating a position where both The Warden and Loghain would be dependent upon Anora.  She then promises The Warden aid, and backstabs The Warden in the Landsmeet.

Attempting to protect her throne is fine.  Backstabbing the PC to do it, however, is obviously going to gain her some ire from the players.

[Addai]

Elfseeker wrote...

First of all, one thing ought to appear evident; Their time is not our time. A LOT of things goes into that idea.
'concubines' is all but expected, rulers had much less privacy and personal influence on their people and thus needed much better control of themselves, and a few other things I can't think of right now. Essentially it's ludicrous to judge them by our standards.

Secondly, I suspect many of you ignore the 'request/instruction' to go talk to her in her room after rescue. HIGHLY recommended. There, as everywhere else, she speaks plainly and straightforwardly. No lies, No backstabbing, no betrayals.

a) Why would you assume that?  i.e. that people ignore Eamon's suggestion and don't talk to Anora?
Anora, like most politicians, is only lying when her lips are moving.  You've been had, my fine Elfseeking friend.  She's the best at it in the whole game.  Except for my HNF PC, of course. 

Thirdly, getting rather tired of reading how she is a 'cold fish', 'ice queen' and otherwise insulting and highly unsuitable things. I wonder if anyone here has any notion what a 'cold' person is really like...?

Again, you seem to have funny ideas about other players.  How about assuming that we're all as intelligent and approach the game as carefully as you, and yet have come to different conclusions?

Finally, she's -been- ruling the country for the better part of five years.

So she says.  Since you are free with dispensing advice about the game, let me make a suggestion:  You need not take what the Chantry says about anything as canon, and you don't need to take Anora and Loghain at their word about anything.  One thing RtO shows is that Cailan is not to be under-rated.  I don't dispute that Anora was an able co-ruler, but your statement goes too far.  Fair or not, Anora is not queen regnant, and if she loses her throne in the midst of her father's ruthless machinations, well, as you point out- politics is a tough game and royal politics even moreso.  At least Alistair doesn't execute her on the spot, as she does to him (under certain conditions) even though he's a Grey Warden and supposedly she cares about the Blight and Ferelden etc. etc.

Conclusion, she is a woman in command of herself, who cares about her country and has a tendency to *gasp* put all the cards on the table.

Or put nothing on the table but what she wants you to see.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 février 2010 - 05:58 .

[Vicious]

Have you MET Ser Cauthrien? Loyal to the Queen? Really? What?

The only way she betrays you at the Landsmeet is if you try to supplant her with Alistair. Sure, she lies. BIG DEAL. It's not like anyone has not used a Persuade: [LIE] check in a playthrough. If you don't lie to her and promise her the throne, you get what's coming to you.

I'll ignore the Anora's claim bit since I don't want to get into that discussion, both sides have merits.

Modifié par Vicious, 24 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[krylo]

Vicious wrote...

Have you MET Ser Cauthrien? Loyal to the Queen? Really? What?

I met her for, let's see, five seconds just before the Landsmeet, during which all she does is accuse me of treason for not supporting the throne.

Yeah, so, no.  Not really.

Does she appear in the game sometime before that, other than the five seconds during which she attempts to get Loghain to go to battle like he promised in a cut scene that my Warden was not privy to that I'm unaware of?  A cutscene that, if my Warden WERE privy to, would make my Warden more likely to believe that she could be convinced to let us leave with the queen were that what Anora wanted.

Because as far as I know, that's the first time in the game you have the opportunity to talk to her.

Modifié par krylo, 24 février 2010 - 05:59 .

[mousestalker]

She is at Arl Eamon's Denerim estate when Loghain confronts Arl Eamon. My Cousland was very much amused by being called 'churl' by the Loghain's battlewench.

[Vicious]

mousestalker wrote...

She is at Arl Eamon's Denerim estate when Loghain confronts Arl Eamon. My Cousland was very much amused by being called 'churl' by the Loghain's battlewench.

Indeed. GOSH does it feel good to kill her!

[KnightofPhoenix]

krylo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

No.

She is bad for doing it in the way that she does.

She promises you her support as thanks for saving her from Howe but she was never in real danger from Howe.  The whole thing, from the beginning, was her manipulating The Warden into creating a position where both The Warden and Loghain would be dependent upon Anora.  She then promises The Warden aid, and backstabs The Warden in the Landsmeet.

Attempting to protect her throne is fine.  Backstabbing the PC to do it, however, is obviously going to gain her some ire from the players.

That's called intelligence. It's never a reason for me to hate someone.

Besides, she doesnt' have to backstab the player as long as the player doesn't want to remove her from her throne.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 février 2010 - 06:02 .

[krylo]

mousestalker wrote...

She is at Arl Eamon's Denerim estate when Loghain confronts Arl Eamon. My Cousland was very much amused by being called 'churl' by the Loghain's battlewench.

Yeah, that would be the time my PC met her for five seconds and she tends to accuse the PC of treason in one form or another for not supporting the throne.

You don't actually get to speak to her, though.  She speaks to you, one small sentence, and then Loghain shuts everyone up and leaves.

[krylo]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

krylo wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

No.

She is bad for doing it in the way that she does.

She promises you her support as thanks for saving her from Howe but she was never in real danger from Howe.  The whole thing, from the beginning, was her manipulating The Warden into creating a position where both The Warden and Loghain would be dependent upon Anora.  She then promises The Warden aid, and backstabs The Warden in the Landsmeet.

Attempting to protect her throne is fine.  Backstabbing the PC to do it, however, is obviously going to gain her some ire from the players.

That's called intelligence. It's never a reason for me to hate someone.

Besides, she doesnt' have to backstab the player as long as the player doesn't want to remove her from her throne.

I wouldn't call it intelligence, for the reasons in my previous long winded post.

I suggest you read it.

The outcome in the game of you going against her, was the most likely outcome taking all variables into account.  At the very least it should have been seen as A likely outcome, and therefore showing herself at the Landsmeet to betray the Warden was NOT an intelligent move.

[SurelyForth]

Vicious wrote...

Are you kidding? Half the people who play this game betray Anora FIRST by announcing her identity to Ser Cauthrien who otherwise is oblivious and lets her walk away. Then they scream and cry about what a traitor she is for doing that, and how evil she is for wanting to STAY Queen?

It's not like you walk into the foyer, see Cauthrien and go "Hey, Anora!  Look who came to see you!"  Cauthrien isn't there to tell you that you've won a free spa day. You are going to be arrested by the lackey of the man who wants you dead more than anything, and the crime you're being accused of is instant death scentence. The PC doesn't know if they'll even make it to Fort Drakon. Loghain hired an assassin, after all, who is to say you and Alistair won't be slaughtered in an alley and dumped in the river?

Furthermore, you are at Howe's Estate to save Anora.  At her request.  It's not like you don't have anything better to do, anyway. The PC's neck is out during that entire rescue mission and it really seems like a trap. She should at least take into consideration what the Warden has risked to save her and, maybe, a little consideration for what will happen to the Warden when they're caught by Loghain. She has to realize that she has a better chance of surviving her father than the PC does.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 24 février 2010 - 06:13 .

[goofygoff]

Anora is one of my favorite characters in the game.

As a female, I love the fact that she is a strong, determined, ruthless, politically savvy woman.  And she's also pretty hot to boot.  Which may explain some of the hate.

Like others have already said, if you actually bother to talk to her at all, it becomes quite evident that she is not the ice queen many see her as.   Like her or loathe her, she is not a "cold fish".

And as for her betrayal at the Landsmeet, I can't say I wouldn't do the same if someone were gunning for my job.  Especially if my replacement's only qualification is his bloodline.

[krylo]

goofygoff wrote...

Anora is one of my favorite characters in the game.

As a female, I love the fact that she is a strong, determined, ruthless, politically savvy woman.  And she's also pretty hot to boot.  Which may explain some of the hate.

Like others have already said, if you actually bother to talk to her at all, it becomes quite evident that she is not the ice queen many see her as.   Like her or loathe her, she is not a "cold fish".

And as for her betrayal at the Landsmeet, I can't say I wouldn't do the same if someone were gunning for my job.  Especially if my replacement's only qualification is his bloodline.

Even if the person gunning for your job was backed by a person who had shown themselves quite capable, and WILLING, to murder entire legions of guards, when you'd be standing in the same room with said person, effectively sentencing them to death?

Because that seems... a little... less than intelligent.

A truly ruthless politically savvy person would have merely avoided the Landsmeet, let things play out as they would, knowing that if the Warden won she'd have to disavow the throne and that if Loghain won with her help there was a good chance her life would be at risk.

[Reaverwind]

SurelyForth wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Are you kidding? Half the people who play this game betray Anora FIRST by announcing her identity to Ser Cauthrien who otherwise is oblivious and lets her walk away. Then they scream and cry about what a traitor she is for doing that, and how evil she is for wanting to STAY Queen?

It's not like you walk into the foyer, see Cauthrien and go "Hey, Anora!  Look who came to see you!"  Cauthrien isn't there to tell you that you've won a free spa day. You are going to be arrested by the lackey of the man who wants you dead more than anything, and the crime you're being accused of is instant death scentence. The PC doesn't know if they'll even make it to Fort Drakon. Loghain hired an assassin, after all, who is to say you and Alistair won't be slaughtered in an alley and dumped in the river?

Furthermore, you are at Howe's Estate to save Anora.  At her request.  It's not like you don't have anything better to do, anyway. The PC's neck is out during that entire rescue mission and it really seems like a trap. She should at least take into consideration what the Warden has risked to save her and, maybe, a little consideration for what will happen to the Warden when they're caught by Loghain. She has to realize that she has a better chance of surviving her father than the PC does.

Let's not forget "Ser" Cauthrien's incredibly fortuitous timing! You've just come up from the dungeons, and the "battlewench" (love that one) happens to show up just then  to arrest the Wardens for Howe's murder? Really? I don't know about you folks, but I'm pretty certain cell phones and other instant-communication niceties weren't exactly commonplace in Fereldan.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 24 février 2010 - 06:23 .

[JosieJ]

I wanted to respond to a couple of points:

Xandurpein wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

It was the opposite for me, Loghaine's reaction to the letters just proved even further to me how paranoid he is when it comes to Orlais. There was no evidence that I could see of a romance between Cailain and the Emperess. I got the impression from the note Cailan crumpled in anger that he loved Anora, and I also got the impression from Queen Anora's codex that she was highly respected by the Emperess.

The key evidence is the point in the Codex where it says that the note from the Empress to Cailan was written in an "unusually familiar tone". That is not assumption, but a quote from the Codex. It can only be interpreted that Cailan and the Empress knew each other quite well, and that this is something Cailan has kept secret from those around him.

Actually, no.  It could mean a variety of things.  I think it most likely means that Celene simply wrote him a letter in a regular tone, without using all the high-style formalities monarchs would be prone to using, but that's just my opinion.  I also think it'd be quite difficult for the king of Ferelden to get to know the empress of Orlais in any way and keep that a secret from his wife and father-in-law, if not from anybody else, even in a time and place before TMZ was peeking in every window!  

I tend to take the letters at face value: that Cailan was discussing establishing friendly relations between Orlais and Ferelden with Celene.  I have no problem thinking that alone would cause Loghain to fly off the handle had he known about it, considering his reaction to Cailan simply seeking military aid from Orlais.  As for a political marriage between Cailan and Celene, it's possible, but I don't think even Cailan would do that--a marriage between a kingdom and an empire would mean the kingdom would become subsumed, and I doubt Cailan would want to undo all of his father's and Loghain's work in re-establishing Fereldan independence.  Since there's no evidence that Eamon (or Loghain, for that matter) knew about this correspondence, who's to say he wasn't just advising Cailan to put Anora aside for another Fereldan noblewoman?  

Xandurpein wrote...

I guess it's derailing the thread, as it is about Anora, but yes. He was planning to do something about Cailan, whom he thought was betraying Fereldan. The point is that all the things he did, and I'm the first to admit that I think al ot of it was wrong and even evil, he did to defend Fereldan as he saw it. It was never a question of grabbing power for the sake of power. He grabbed power, because he, mistakenly, thought he was the only one who could save Fereldan - from Orlais, from the darkspawn and even from Cailan and Eamon.

Who cares why he did it?  He did it and that makes him a regicide and a traitor.  The king is the king, no?  His is the last word and if you don't agree with him, your options are to suck it up or rebel.  Of course, that doesn't make Loghain much different from successful regicides and traitors, except that if you're successful, no one calls you that (to your face, at least).

As for Anora, I don't think she's misunderstood.  No one gives Alistair any credit for wisdom, but I think he nailed it when he said she was her father's daughter:  both of them think that they are the only ones who can do the right thing, so everyone else needs to just get out of their way.  She's clearly intelligent and politically savvy--some might say calculating.  By all accounts, she was stronger than Cailan, personality-wise, and could manipulate him to do whatever she wanted (since childhood).  She's been the de facto ruler of Fereldan, not Cailan, and most people knew that.  She's clearly willing to stand up for what she believes in--and do anything to get what she wants.

I guess we're just arguing over whether those are good traits or bad ones!

[CalJones]

goofygoff wrote...

Anora is one of my favorite characters in the game.

As a female, I love the fact that she is a strong, determined, ruthless, politically savvy woman.  And she's also pretty hot to boot.  Which may explain some of the hate.

Like others have already said, if you actually bother to talk to her at all, it becomes quite evident that she is not the ice queen many see her as.   Like her or loathe her, she is not a "cold fish".

And as for her betrayal at the Landsmeet, I can't say I wouldn't do the same if someone were gunning for my job.  Especially if my replacement's only qualification is his bloodline.

Bravo. I tire of all the Anora hate from female players - it's rather unsisterly, isn't it?
Yes, she's all the things you say, but I suspect a lot of the antipathy stems from the fact that she is either obstacle to "darling" Alistair's rule, or a potential mate for him (ooh, scratch her eyes out!)
She's a tough cookie, but like her father, she's endured a lot of loss, so it's unsurprising that she has hard exterior. There is a heart underneath, if you are willing to talk to her and find out.

As a canny and popular queen, I've never seen the point of removing her, so I haven't seen her Landsmeet "betrayal" (and I wouldn't blame her for it, if you were trying to oust her - it's a matter of survival). Alistair doesn't even want to be king. I usually persuade them to marry but if I wanted the happy Alistair romance ending, I'd leave her on the throne and let Al follow his heart and remain a Warden.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...
Bravo. I tire of all the Anora hate from female players - it's rather unsisterly, isn't it?
Yes, she's all the things you say, but I suspect a lot of the antipathy stems from the fact that she is either obstacle to "darling" Alistair's rule, or a potential mate for him (ooh, scratch her eyes out!)

Your comments aren't very sisterly, either.  Just sayin'.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 février 2010 - 06:42 .

[Bratt1204]

Vicious wrote...

Are you kidding? Half the people who play this game betray Anora FIRST by announcing her identity to Ser Cauthrien who otherwise is oblivious and lets her walk away. Then they scream and cry about what a traitor she is for doing that, and how evil she is for wanting to STAY Queen?

Maybe if people didn't just click past dialogue they'd realize this. But nope, they blame her for running away instead of being put wherever Loghain wants her, and blame her for trying to keep the throne which the jackass PC is coming out of nowhere and pulling a coup to get rid of her.


To call her traitorous is just the kind of incomprehensible 'logic' that is all over these forums.


Her 'Right' to the throne is more concrete than Alistair's, who is quite literally an undeclared Bastard of a dead king [not even the most RECENT king] and should have zero claim and be laughed out of the Landsmeet - alas the poor guy is pigeon holed into the path the second he mentions that he is a bastard son of Maric. I really feel for him.

For you as well: You are obviously ignorant to how a Monarchy or laws of succession work. It would be wise for you to educate yourself a bit on a topic before making statements which are simply incorrect. 

[Alandros]

Like multiple others have said I also haven't understood why the quantity of people hate Anora so much. She looks out for her own interests (in which I'm sure she justifies are the best interests of Ferelden since she has indeed been queen for years five years now and been the primary, and respected, ruler).



To her everyone is trying to screw her over, or she must consider that possibility. She has been ruling for five years with Cailan and as was made obvious in the Codex it is well known she's the real ruler. On top of that it says she's a respected ruler (even respected by foreign nations) and it's highly suggested if not plainly said that she has kept the banns and various other political powers at bay and under her influence (not an easy thing of course I'd imagine).



So have five years of ruling her husband, the King, dies. How does he die, her dear old war hero father betrays him and leaves him. Now her father is flexing his military muscle to overpower some of her decisions (with Howe being even more oppressive of her in front of and behind Loghain's back I'm sure).



So to her she sees Loghain (her dear father) as trying to muscle her out. Howe as trying to muscle her out. Here comes this random bastard son Alistair who not only doesn't want to be King but lacks nearly any ounce of leadership on display (with serious concerns of Eamon wanting power through Alistair). Then a bold Warden who seems to be at the peak of influence who seems to be the person who will decide the fate (in a human noble case someone who may be wanting to steal power themselves as well.



In her defense she is just defending her already existing position of power. She has ruled successfully for years and now everyone is trying to take control. Obviously she's going to be a bit manipulative, a bit cold, and a bit cutthroat. If anything she's still less of a manipulative and cold person compared to the extremes Loghain has gone through (causing Cailan and a mass amount of soldiers to die and hunting your player down), Howe who killed off the entire Cousland family (or so he thought) and suggested to Loghain to kill his own daughter, and here comes Eamon with Alistair who is trying to rip the throne away from her through the Warden.



So I think one can muster at least a slight bit of sympathy and understanding that she's been stabbed in the back more times than she can count and unless she is the littlest bit cutthroat she is ousted out of power completely if not dead. Personally the strength and lengths that character is willing to go to see things done impressed me a bit.

[Alandros]

Hmm arguing about monarchy rules and ways in a fantasy world seems a bit pointless.

[Bratt1204]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

[CalJones]

Addai67 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
Bravo. I tire of all the Anora hate from female players - it's rather unsisterly, isn't it?
Yes, she's all the things you say, but I suspect a lot of the antipathy stems from the fact that she is either obstacle to "darling" Alistair's rule, or a potential mate for him (ooh, scratch her eyes out!)

Your comments aren't very sisterly, either.  Just sayin'.

My tongue's in my cheek.

[Alandros]

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

It's as much hers as anyone else who is vying for power.  In the end it's whoever wins throne.  Just like Alistair can (or the Warden can for him more appropriately lol), she is making claims for it, whoever succeeds is the only one who can really claim it

[Sabriana]

The King/Queen consort (married partner of the ruling Queen/King) is not the successor of the ruling Queen/King should he/she die. It's the next relative of the bloodline of the dead ruling King/Queen.

The consort is like the American first lady/man (if there was a fem President), who would also not become President at his/her demise.

Other than that, this is my take on Anora, I copy/pasted my post from another thread in another forum:

Sabriana (me) wrote:

Alistair:  Harden his heart, marry him to Anora, feed Loghain to the archdemon = great ending.

My PC loves listening to Alistair saying "If Anora thinks she can rule to her hearts content, she will be surprised." (after Loghain sacrifices himself). It makes her very, very happy that her good friend Alistair will be a great king.

Go Alistair.