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[SurelyForth]

So I think one can muster at least a slight bit of sympathy and understanding that she's been stabbed in the back more times than she can count and unless she is the littlest bit cutthroat she is ousted out of power completely if not dead. Personally the strength and lengths that character is willing to go to see things done impressed me a bit.

I'm sorry, but how many people stab her in the back before the PC meets her? Her father and Howe.  Even if the PC doesn't mention her to Cauthrien, and even if you say that you'll support her, she'll still betray the PC at the Landsmeet for suggesting that Loghain be executed, which is (setting-wise) how traitors and murderers are punished.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 24 février 2010 - 07:06 .

[Bratt1204]

Alandros wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

It's as much hers as anyone else who is vying for power.  In the end it's whoever wins throne.  Just like Alistair can (or the Warden can for him more appropriately lol), she is making claims for it, whoever succeeds is the only one who can really claim it

You are incorrect.

[Helios969]

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does... And whomever is strong enough to retain it, which may be Anora if she convinces our character(s) that her remaining in power is a good thing.  Which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

[Addai]

Alandros wrote...
In her defense she is just defending her already existing position of power. 

There is plenty of rationale for what Loghain does, too, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a ruthless bastard whose time has come.  At least, that is a very valid conclusion for a PC to draw.  And it is equally as valid to conclude, as more than one NPC will point out to you, that Anora is just like her father and that her time has come, too.

[Addai]

Helios969 wrote...

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does...

No, she doesn't, else she wouldn't need you to help her claim it and wrest power from her father's regency.  She is not queen regnant unless and until the Landsmeet says so.

[CalJones]

SurelyForth wrote...
I'm sorry, but how many people stab her in the back before the PC meets her? Her father and Howe.  Even if the PC doesn't mention her to Cauthrien, and even if you say that you'll support her, she'll still betray the PC at the Landsmeet for suggesting that Loghain be executed, which is (setting-wise) how traitors and murderers are punished.

Are you surprised? She doesn't want her father killed - she loves him (and whether he's a traitor and murderer is open to debate, but there are already several threads that cover that topic in great detail).

[Alandros]

SurelyForth wrote...

So I think one can muster at least a slight bit of sympathy and understanding that she's been stabbed in the back more times than she can count and unless she is the littlest bit cutthroat she is ousted out of power completely if not dead. Personally the strength and lengths that character is willing to go to see things done impressed me a bit.

I'm sorry, but how many people stab her in the back before the PC meets her? Her father and Howe. That's it. Eamon doesn't do anything to her but suggest Alistair has a stronger claim to the throne (and Eamon owes her nothing). Even if the PC doesn't mention her to Cauthrien, and even if you say that you'll support her, she'll still betray the PC at the Landsmeet for suggesting that Loghain be executed, which is (setting-wise) how traitors and murderers are punished.

Of course, being backstabbed by her father, that garners no sympathy?  Maybe I should've emphasized the quality instead of the quantity but that's a minor difference.  Also it's clear in the RtO that Eamon has been suggesting Cailan marry someone else so I'd find it hard to believe that this hasn't revealed itself in her interactions with him at all. Various people are out to remove her from her position as Queen in which she has ruled for 5 years.  Of course she's going to be defensive of that, she'd be an idiot not to. If she isn't a weak willed pansy then I'd expect her to do at least some harsh things to keep herself in that position.  I mean the PC Warden is confronted with many different situations in which they have to make hard decisions that may seem harsh or cutthroat, but necessary.  Duncan is a perfect example of this...  various things Duncan does are pretty heartless and nasty, but necessary in his mind and to his goal.  He demands a human noble join the grey wardens in exchange for their life, instead of saving them (while the PC's parent is dying lol).  That's more cold and manipulative than anything Anora does.  Yet most people still respect Duncan because they can see his intention and that he's willing to do the hard things to get what he needs done.  Anora is no different.

[Alandros]

Addai67 wrote...

Alandros wrote...
In her defense she is just defending her already existing position of power. 

There is plenty of rationale for what Loghain does, too, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a ruthless bastard whose time has come.  At least, that is a very valid conclusion for a PC to draw.  And it is equally as valid to conclude, as more than one NPC will point out to you, that Anora is just like her father and that her time has come, too.

Except Anora hasn't done anything compared to her father.  Her father damned his daughter's husband, the King, to die alongside many of his own soldiers, ones that he knew and respected.  Anora doing a couple mildly manipulative things are hardly in comparison. 

Duncan does some pretty cold and nasty things to achieve his goal, way above and beyond Anora, yet most people don't judge him just on that.

[maxernst]

It seems to me a lot of people are having a hard time viewing the situation from any perspective other than their own. From an objective view, putting Alistair on the throne looks like a naked power grab by the Wardens. A suspicious mind--and don't forget there are historical reasons for Ferelden to be suspicious of the wardens--might find it notable that just six months after Maric's bastard becomes a grey warden, Callen is killed and the Wardens show up touting him as king.



Anora is clearly accepted as noble by most of the Landsmeet, bloodlines or not. She was allowed to marry Callen and you can easily get the Landsmeet to accept her as queen, neither of which would be allowed if she were truly viewed as a commoner. It's true that by any succession laws I know of, she would not be queen regnant...but who knows what the succession laws are in Ferelden? Alistair suggests Eammon is closest to the throne by being the brother in law of the former King, which is even more tenuous, so maybe this is accepted in Ferelden.



As a Grey Warden, your primary responsibility ought to be fighting the blight. Why should you care who's on the throne, as long as they're not an obstacle like Loghain? If you agree to Anora as queen, she is a very helpful ally in swaying the Landsmeet. It seems to me only a power-hungry Grey Warden would decline that alliance, making it more difficult to win the Landsmeet, in order to put a Grey Warden on the throne.

[Reaverwind]

[quote]Alandros wrote...

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

[quote]Alandros wrote...
Except Anora hasn't done anything compared to her father.  Her father damned his daughter's husband, the King, to die alongside many of his own soldiers, ones that he knew and respected.  Anora doing a couple mildly manipulative things are hardly in comparison. 

[/quote]

And when Cailin's out of the picture, Loghain is clearly running the show. And those "mildly manipulative" things are basically "cover your ass" moves - understandable, but insufficient grounds for accolades in my book.

[master-fluff]

Helios969 wrote...

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does...

Becuase Cailan left no heir, no one holds the throne until after a Landsmeet; Ferelden is in a period of interregnum.  Loghain may have declared himself regent for Anora but until there's a Landsmeet agreement AND a coronation, the throne is offically empty. 

[Alandros]

...Anora is clearly accepted as noble by most of the Landsmeet, bloodlines or not...

She is the daughter of a Teyrn, definitely noble.

[Bratt1204]

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does...

No, she doesn't, else she wouldn't need you to help her claim it and wrest power from her father's regency.  She is not queen regnant unless and until the Landsmeet says so.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. The people who insist Anora has some claim to the Throne are simply ignorant to what a Monarchy is and on the Laws of Succession. 

[Bratt1204]

master-fluff wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does...

Becuase Cailan left no heir, no one holds the throne until after a Landsmeet; Ferelden is in a period of interregnum.  Loghain may have declared himself regent for Anora but until there's a Landsmeet agreement AND a coronation, the throne is offically empty. 

Absolutely correct.

[Helios969]

master-fluff wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does...

Becuase Cailan left no heir, no one holds the throne until after a Landsmeet; Ferelden is in a period of interregnum.  Loghain may have declared himself regent for Anora but until there's a Landsmeet agreement AND a coronation, the throne is offically empty. 

According to whom?  Even if there is some legal technicality that supports your claim, she commands the respect of both the people and the nobility, and Loghain himself assumes and wields power through his wife's position.  It's pretty clear that without my intervention at the Landsmeet, the Darkspawn threat, and the dirty dealings of her father that her popularity would have been enough to ensure her place among the Fereldan elite.  Either as queen or through an arranged marriage between her and her dissenters.  Perhaps her and Bann Teagan.

[Addai]

maxernst wrote...
 It seems to me only a power-hungry Grey Warden would decline that alliance, making it more difficult to win the Landsmeet, in order to put a Grey Warden on the throne.

No, it may be that there is a Grey Warden who is either too naive or too honorable to play Anora's game.

And none of my characters has "put a Grey Warden on the throne."  They are putting Maric's heir on the throne, and he happens to be a Grey Warden.  I agree that it is conceivable that people would view your actions at the Landsmeet as a power grab, and that if you did not defeat the Blight and become the Hero of Ferelden, the civil war might have gone on.  This is why the option for Alistair to marry Anora is put in (Cunning) terms as "the smart thing" or in (Persuade) terms as an obviously good move.  However, there are all sorts of RP reasons why you could decide that this is not the best thing even if it is a "good" option.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 février 2010 - 07:45 .

[krylo]

Alandros wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

So I think one can muster at least a slight bit of sympathy and understanding that she's been stabbed in the back more times than she can count and unless she is the littlest bit cutthroat she is ousted out of power completely if not dead. Personally the strength and lengths that character is willing to go to see things done impressed me a bit.

I'm sorry, but how many people stab her in the back before the PC meets her? Her father and Howe. That's it. Eamon doesn't do anything to her but suggest Alistair has a stronger claim to the throne (and Eamon owes her nothing). Even if the PC doesn't mention her to Cauthrien, and even if you say that you'll support her, she'll still betray the PC at the Landsmeet for suggesting that Loghain be executed, which is (setting-wise) how traitors and murderers are punished.

Of course, being backstabbed by her father, that garners no sympathy?  Maybe I should've emphasized the quality instead of the quantity but that's a minor difference.  Also it's clear in the RtO that Eamon has been suggesting Cailan marry someone else so I'd find it hard to believe that this hasn't revealed itself in her interactions with him at all. Various people are out to remove her from her position as Queen in which she has ruled for 5 years.  Of course she's going to be defensive of that, she'd be an idiot not to. If she isn't a weak willed pansy then I'd expect her to do at least some harsh things to keep herself in that position.  I mean the PC Warden is confronted with many different situations in which they have to make hard decisions that may seem harsh or cutthroat, but necessary.  Duncan is a perfect example of this...  various things Duncan does are pretty heartless and nasty, but necessary in his mind and to his goal.  He demands a human noble join the grey wardens in exchange for their life, instead of saving them (while the PC's parent is dying lol).  That's more cold and manipulative than anything Anora does.  Yet most people still respect Duncan because they can see his intention and that he's willing to do the hard things to get what he needs done.  Anora is no different.

The difference is that Duncan is forthright about it.

He doesn't say "Oh no, I won't make you be a grey warden, come on I'll save your life for free," and then later on tie you down and force the chalice to your mouth.

He says flat out, "These are your choices."

If Anora had said flat out that she wouldn't support The Warden/would support Loghain when you gave her answers she didn't like, instead of pretending like she would still offer you her full support, she wouldn't garner the hatred she does.

That's the difference between betrayal and just being manipulative.  It's not the manipulations leading UP to her betrayal that bother people.  Most of us wanted to kill Howe anyway, so having her manipulate us into it isn't so bad, and we're still the ones who pulled the trigger on him regardless.  However, having her promise her support or at least imply that she'd be happy with any outcome that removes Loghain from power, and THEN appearing at the landsmeet to destroy The Warden's position?  

That's an entirely different league than what Duncan does.

[Alandros]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does...

No, she doesn't, else she wouldn't need you to help her claim it and wrest power from her father's regency.  She is not queen regnant unless and until the Landsmeet says so.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. The people who insist Anora has some claim to the Throne are simply ignorant to what a Monarchy is and on the Laws of Succession. 

Right... the laws of succession in the Ferelden are so specifically detailed in the non-existant codex that you seem to have?

Not as if laws of succession always mean anything even in the real world.  Whoever can hold power has power.  Hence the existence of a coup.  Someone can take the throne and have no justifiable claim to the throne.  In a lot of cases having some sort of claim (again anyone can make a claim you can't restrict from someone claiming something, whether it's valid in you're mind is another matter) may help secure said persons position.  The fact that Anora has ruled successfully for five years gives her a very strong claim, people respect her ability to rule, she can establish her own line of succession and get away with it. Hence why it is indeed a possibility in the game (in which the Banns and such apparently don't immediately revolt). 

[Alandros]

krylo wrote...

Alandros wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

So I think one can muster at least a slight bit of sympathy and understanding that she's been stabbed in the back more times than she can count and unless she is the littlest bit cutthroat she is ousted out of power completely if not dead. Personally the strength and lengths that character is willing to go to see things done impressed me a bit.

I'm sorry, but how many people stab her in the back before the PC meets her? Her father and Howe. That's it. Eamon doesn't do anything to her but suggest Alistair has a stronger claim to the throne (and Eamon owes her nothing). Even if the PC doesn't mention her to Cauthrien, and even if you say that you'll support her, she'll still betray the PC at the Landsmeet for suggesting that Loghain be executed, which is (setting-wise) how traitors and murderers are punished.

Of course, being backstabbed by her father, that garners no sympathy?  Maybe I should've emphasized the quality instead of the quantity but that's a minor difference.  Also it's clear in the RtO that Eamon has been suggesting Cailan marry someone else so I'd find it hard to believe that this hasn't revealed itself in her interactions with him at all. Various people are out to remove her from her position as Queen in which she has ruled for 5 years.  Of course she's going to be defensive of that, she'd be an idiot not to. If she isn't a weak willed pansy then I'd expect her to do at least some harsh things to keep herself in that position.  I mean the PC Warden is confronted with many different situations in which they have to make hard decisions that may seem harsh or cutthroat, but necessary.  Duncan is a perfect example of this...  various things Duncan does are pretty heartless and nasty, but necessary in his mind and to his goal.  He demands a human noble join the grey wardens in exchange for their life, instead of saving them (while the PC's parent is dying lol).  That's more cold and manipulative than anything Anora does.  Yet most people still respect Duncan because they can see his intention and that he's willing to do the hard things to get what he needs done.  Anora is no different.

The difference is that Duncan is forthright about it.

He doesn't say "Oh no, I won't make you be a grey warden, come on I'll save your life for free," and then later on tie you down and force the chalice to your mouth.

He says flat out, "These are your choices."

If Anora had said flat out that she wouldn't support The Warden/would support Loghain when you gave her answers she didn't like, instead of pretending like she would still offer you her full support, she wouldn't garner the hatred she does.

That's the difference between betrayal and just being manipulative.  It's not the manipulations leading UP to her betrayal that bother people.  Most of us wanted to kill Howe anyway, so having her manipulate us into it isn't so bad, and we're still the ones who pulled the trigger on him regardless.  However, having her promise her support or at least imply that she'd be happy with any outcome that removes Loghain from power, and THEN appearing at the landsmeet to destroy The Warden's position?  

That's an entirely different league than what Duncan does.

I disagree.  When my human male noble was watching his father die and Duncan said he would only save you if your father committed you to becoming a gray warden that doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.  Die or don't die and do what he says.  That's his supposed choice.  In that case it's more effectively manipulative to lay it out like that so one realizes the futility of the choice.  That's what Duncan did, he found people who really didn't have a choice (or much of one).  That is extremely heartless and manipulative even if he was honest about being manipulative.  Yes Anora was deceptive but Duncan was just as a heartless manipulator at times.  I respect that character for it though since he does what he needs to do despite knowing it will make him look vile.  I respect Anora's character the same.

[Elfseeker]

From the clip of the relevant dialogue I read earlier, i would seem she does not -promise- anything of the sort. She says she'll be content. If that is all she says, that is -not- a promise of support.
And again; claiming plans to kill daddy or steal -her throne-(it's hers whether people like it or not. There is no talk about her 'claim' far as I know, all I've seen is talk about 'deposing' her) will make her consider the warden and co as more or less 'hostile' to her position. That she should use her wits to stay safe and on top makes purest sense you ever saw.
But meh.

Modifié par Elfseeker, 24 février 2010 - 07:59 .

[Addai]

Alandros wrote...

Yes Anora was deceptive but Duncan was just as a heartless manipulator at times.  I respect that character for it though since he does what he needs to do despite knowing it will make him look vile.  I respect Anora's character the same.

I agree that both are single-minded and ruthless.  My HNF thought Duncan was a bastard and only forgave him after they defeated the Blight, and only because she could see the Maker's hand in what he had done.  None of them could not have known it at the time, but he really did have only one more shot at recruiting someone who could defeat the Blight.

However, the major difference between Duncan and Anora is the end they are using manipulative means to gain.  Anora is trying desperately to cling to power and will sell you and Ferelden (via the Blight) down the river to hold on to it.  Duncan will defeat the Blight at any cost, an unselfish aim.  That makes him more honorable than her even if he went too far in the HN origin.

Modifié par Addai67, 24 février 2010 - 08:05 .

[Malanek]

I liked Anora. One of the best things about the story is that it is not black and white. There are different perspectives to many things and certainly about Anora. If she is misunderstood, and I don't think that is quite the right word, it seems it was done so deliberately by the writers.

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Yes Anora was deceptive but Duncan was just as a heartless manipulator at times.  I respect that character for it though since he does what he needs to do despite knowing it will make him look vile.  I respect Anora's character the same.

I agree that both are single-minded and ruthless.  My HNF thought Duncan was a bastard and only forgave him after they defeated the Blight, and only because she could see the Maker's hand in what he had done.  He could not have known it at the time, but he really did have only one more shot at recruiting someone who could defeat the Blight.

However, the major difference between Duncan and Anora is the end they are using manipulative means to gain.  Anora is trying desperately to cling to power and will sell you and Ferelden (via the Blight) down the river to hold on to it.  Duncan will defeat the Blight at any cost, an unselfish aim.  That makes him more honorable than her even if he went too far in the HN origin.

Don't forget she's trying to cling to life and freedom as well as power.  Rival claimants to the throne have an excellent chance of winding up imprisoned or dead.

[Alandros]

Addai67 wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Yes Anora was deceptive but Duncan was just as a heartless manipulator at times.  I respect that character for it though since he does what he needs to do despite knowing it will make him look vile.  I respect Anora's character the same.

I agree that both are single-minded and ruthless.  My HNF thought Duncan was a bastard and only forgave him after they defeated the Blight, and only because she could see the Maker's hand in what he had done.  He could not have known it at the time, but he really did have only one more shot at recruiting someone who could defeat the Blight.

I can understand that view for sure

However, the major difference between Duncan and Anora is the end they are using manipulative means to gain.  Anora is trying desperately to cling to power and will sell you and Ferelden (via the Blight) down the river to hold on to it.  Duncan will defeat the Blight at any cost, an unselfish aim.  That makes him more honorable than her even if he went too far in the HN origin.

That's all perspective though.  To Anora holding onto power so she can make the right decisions to unite Ferelden again and fight the blight is what she might see as best.  Loghain might see that letting Cailan and most of the Grey Wardens die and allowing him to unite Ferelden's military forces and lead them to victory against the Blight and still stand strong in the eyes of Orlais is the best thing for Ferelden.  For Duncan the Blight and Darkspawn is the single greatest threat and doing whatever he can do to allow the Wardens to fight the Blight is what he sees as best.  In all of these cases these characters remaining alive and in power is a way for them to try to do what they think is best.  

[master-fluff]

Helios969 wrote...

According to whom?  Even if there is some legal technicality that supports your claim, she commands the respect of both the people and the nobility, and Loghain himself assumes and wields power through his wife's position.  It's pretty clear that without my intervention at the Landsmeet, the Darkspawn threat, and the dirty dealings of her father that her popularity would have been enough to ensure her place among the Fereldan elite.  Either as queen or through an arranged marriage between her and her dissenters.  Perhaps her and Bann Teagan.

Helios, if Anora is truely a queen regnant after the death of Cailan and legally holds the throne as you suggest, why does Loghain need to declare himself her regent, why is there any need for a Landsmeet, and why is does she have a second coronation (assuming she's declared queen at the apparently unnecessary Landsmeet) ? 

Also, if she's so popular with her subjects, why is there a civil war when Loghain unnecessarily declares himself regent for her ?