515 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

master-fluff wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

According to whom?  Even if there is some legal technicality that supports your claim, she commands the respect of both the people and the nobility, and Loghain himself assumes and wields power through his wife's position.  It's pretty clear that without my intervention at the Landsmeet, the Darkspawn threat, and the dirty dealings of her father that her popularity would have been enough to ensure her place among the Fereldan elite.  Either as queen or through an arranged marriage between her and her dissenters.  Perhaps her and Bann Teagan.

Helios, if Anora is truely a queen regnant after the death of Cailan and legally holds the throne as you suggest, why does Loghain need to declare himself her regent, why is there any need for a Landsmeet, and why is does she have a second coronation (assuming she's declared queen at the apparently unnecessary Landsmeet) ? 

Also, if she's so popular with her subjects, why is there a civil war when Loghain unnecessarily declares himself regent for her ?

Because Fereldens are one hangover away from being barbarians.

If she had popped an heir, then the succession wouldn't be in turmoil. None of us know what the rules on succession are in Thedas, but it's obvious there is a fair amount of pragmatism in play. Calian's death left legitimacy at least partially in the air. 

[maxernst]

Addai67 wrote...

maxernst wrote...
 It seems to me only a power-hungry Grey Warden would decline that alliance, making it more difficult to win the Landsmeet, in order to put a Grey Warden on the throne.

No, it may be that there is a Grey Warden who is either too naive or too honorable to play Anora's game.

And none of my characters has "put a Grey Warden on the throne."  They are putting Maric's heir on the throne, and he happens to be a Grey Warden.  I agree that it is conceivable that people would view your actions at the Landsmeet as a power grab, and that if you did not defeat the Blight and become the Hero of Ferelden, the civil war might have gone on.  This is why the option for Alistair to marry Anora is put in (Cunning) terms as "the smart thing" or in (Persuade) terms as an obviously good move.  However, there are all sorts of RP reasons why you could decide that this is not the best thing even if it is a "good" option.

From the players point of view agree with you, but if you're looking at it from the standpoint of a member of the Landsmeet, the player looks just as power-hungry as Anora.  I do agree that marrying Alistair to Anora is probably the best choice for Ferelden's future, since it doesn't alienate Anora's power base and allows you to claim that you're just doing it to save the Thierin line.

[Helios969]

Malanek999 wrote...

I liked Anora. One of the best things about the story is that it is not black and white. There are different perspectives to many things and certainly about Anora. If she is misunderstood, and I don't think that is quite the right word, it seems it was done so deliberately by the writers.

Unlike the views of too many people who post on this forum.  I'm right, your wrong.  That's not what the writer meant.  Yes it is.  You're ignorant.  Go read a book.  No, you need to. This, that. Blah, blah, blah.

Geez people, try to be a bit more open-minded.  And respectful to other peoples perspectives.

[krylo]

Alandros wrote...

I disagree.  When my human male noble was watching his father die and Duncan said he would only save you if your father committed you to becoming a gray warden that doesn't seem like much of a choice to me.  Die or don't die and do what he says.  That's his supposed choice.  In that case it's more effectively manipulative to lay it out like that so one realizes the futility of the choice.  That's what Duncan did, he found people who really didn't have a choice (or much of one).  That is extremely heartless and manipulative even if he was honest about being manipulative.  Yes Anora was deceptive but Duncan was just as a heartless manipulator at times.  I respect that character for it though since he does what he needs to do despite knowing it will make him look vile.  I respect Anora's character the same.

Yes, my HFN wasn't too keen on him either.

My city elf was a bit neutral.  Saved from the rack and all, but after learning the costs of being a Grey Warden it was a little less great.

My mage saw him as a tool to remove himself from the circle.  Being a Grey Warden was still better than being a Chantry dog.

I haven't done the dwarf origins or dalish elf yet, but that's beside the point.

That doesn't change the fact that one of them betrayed and backstabbed you while the other merely pulled a simple dick move on you at the worst possible time (assuming human noble) .

I agree that what Duncan did wasn't NICE, but it wasn't BETRAYAL either.  Betrayal tends to strike people a bit harder than just a normal dick move.  It's the difference between getting punched in the jaw and getting kicked in the sack out of nowhere.  They both hurt, but one hurts considerably more.

Modifié par krylo, 24 février 2010 - 08:24 .

[nos_astra]

maxernst wrote...
From the players point of view agree with you, but if you're looking at it from the standpoint of a member of the Landsmeet, the player looks just as power-hungry as Anora.  I do agree that marrying Alistair to Anora is probably the best choice for Ferelden's future, since it doesn't alienate Anora's power base and allows you to claim that you're just doing it to save the Thierin line.

Hmpf, I hate when that happens (no, not really). Someone writes something smart, I see a point, it reminds me that nothing in DAO is meant to be simple and suddenly my POV is rearranged a little. I hope I don't end up actually ... kind of ... liking Anora.

[Herr Uhl]

klarabella wrote...

...I hope I don't end up actually ... kind of ... liking Anora.

The dark side has cookies.

[Reaverwind]

krylo wrote...

Yes, my HFN wasn't too keen on him either.

My city elf was a bit neutral.  Saved from the rack and all, but after learning the costs of being a Grey Warden it was a little less great.

My mage saw him as a tool to remove himself from the circle.  Being a Grey Warden was still better than being a Chantry dog.

I haven't done the dwarf origins or dalish elf yet, but that's beside the point.

That doesn't change the fact that one of them betrayed and backstabbed you while the other merely pulled a simple dick move on you at the worst possible time (assuming human noble) .

I agree that what Duncan did wasn't NICE, but it wasn't BETRAYAL either.  

Pretty much all my characters appreciated being saved from rather grim fates. Niceness has nothing to do with pragmatism. In contrast, Anora offered much less relative gain. What grim fate does she save your character from, again? As I recall, her shenanigans did the opposite.

[mousestalker]

Why my Cousland overthrew Anora.



Anora says, when you ask her that she is the strong candidate, as opposed to Alistair, who she classifies as weak.



She also says she is a pragmatist.



And she also says that Mom was a friend of hers.



All of these are good points. Grey Wardens are supposed to be pragmatic, with the number one priority defeating the Blight.



Here are the problems with Anora. Keep in mind I don't see this as black and white. If Mom was such a good friend, why did Arl Howe prosper with Anora as Queen? Anora's friendship obviously means little if those who attack her friends are able to prosper so mightily. Whether she failed to punish Howe out of pragmatism or weakness, it makes little difference. If she is behaved out of expedience, then she is unreliable (Ferelden's esteem loyalty above all else) and if she did it out of weakness, then that speaks ill of her earlier statement.



He claims that her father wants her dead are nonsense. If her father wanted her dead, then Howe would have had her killed or done the deed himself. She was his prisoner after all. Her father wanted her on ice, which is where she was.



Loghain wanted me dead, which I understood. He also wanted Alistair dead, which is understandable. He also loved his daughter. She loved him. They were in a three way power struggle between themselves and the Guerrins. The logical solution is for two to unite against one. Either father and daughter reconcile and put down the Guerrin faction, in which case the Grey Wardens die and Ferelden is lost, or one of the Mac Tyr factions ally with the Guerrins and Ferelden has a chance.



Loghain makes it clear he isn't going to negotiate at Arl Eamon's estate. Anora shows herself as available with the half baked rescue mission. From her point of view, if it fails, then the Grey Wardens are out of the picture and it looks like a failed assassination/kidnap mission, Howe being disposable. If it succeeds, then Howe is dead and her father is weakened, setting her up to have a more dominate role in whatever group wins.



From my Cousland's perspective, the logical solution is for Anora to marry Alistair. That creates an instant alliance and undercuts Loghain's support. The problem with that is that also puts my Elissa Cousland on the sidelines. So the first order of business was to ally with Anora, take Loghain out permanently and then put forward the Theirin/Cousland regime as a replacement for Anora. Which worked.



My Cousland never hated Anora (She did hate her father and most definitely Howe). But Anora had to be sidelined for Ferelden to unite against the Blight. And so it happened.

[krylo]

Yeah, well my Circle Mage kinda ratted out Jowan so he wasn't really being saved from any terrible fates.

But yes, that's a point to consider as well.

I also love threads like this in reflection. As it starts with someone attempting to pigeonhole everyone who doesn't like a character as simply not understanding them, while at the same time completely refusing to understand why one might not like said character.

Honestly, in most of my playthroughs I've put Anora on the throne with or without Alistair. It wasn't until I decided to go HFN and become queen that she showed her colors. As a result, I, as a player am pretty neutral on Anora.

However, all these claims that the people who don't like her just don't get it kinda rub me the wrong way. She has some redeeming features, and she has a lot of damning features. There is no reason to be shocked or think that someone doesn't get it if they don't like Anora, particularly after she betrays them.

Personally, I like Morrigan, for example. One of my favorite characters in the game. Now, I'll defend her from time to time if someone says she's going to steal a child's body or something--but that's, for one thing, purely based on what I took from her character, and secondly, I don't go around making threads about how Morrigan isn't a demoness and accuse people who think she is of just not getting her character.

I recognize that it's hard to trust her and that she's kind of a **** about a lot of decisions, and seems to have issues with rescuing kittens... kittens are cute and fluffy and you're damn straight if there was a quest to rescue one from a tree we would stop to do it, Morrigan.

Anora's more or less the same way. She's kind of a ****, she betrays the PC, and there's plenty of reason to dislike her.

You like her?

Cool. Go on liking her. Talk about how you like her even. Maybe even justify it.

But don't go about saying things like she's misunderstood, which implies that other players didn't take the time to understand her, or make, honestly, ludicrous accusations about the majority of players not following a very pointed and clear message to go and speak to her.

We understand her perfectly. We just see that there are quite a few irredeemable traits, and perhaps some of us have taken offense at being betrayed at the Landsmeet and nearly executed because of her.

Modifié par krylo, 24 février 2010 - 09:06 .

[Thalorin1919]

ReubenLiew wrote...

And also, apparently some of us read the epilogue different because as far as I can tell the only bad thing about Anora's rule was the elves get slammed for RIOTING, which even in this age is a severe crime.
Her solo rule brings Fereldan to a new economic golden age. The only few notable things Alistair does as king is be well liked by his people, and made an elf a councillor, which did not result in an elf riot for some reason or another, apparently they forgot there was a draught that caused famine. He does not even bother to rule the country, he steps aside for Eamon to do his thing.
Alistair and Anora was a perfect combination of a well-liked king and a powerful rise for the county.

I would rather follow heart then brains. But thats just me. If you want to rule a country, you need to lead a country. Sure, she may be a good ruler and all that. But she doesnt exactly rouse the people for any cause, I dont even know if she could. Cailan could do that, and so could Alistair.

Plus Alistair studies the art of governance with Eamon as his advisor. With Alistair as King, he can lead and rule efficiently. Anora may be a good ruler, but she cant deal with problems with people.

[Thalorin1919]

Helios969 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does... And whomever is strong enough to retain it, which may be Anora if she convinces our character(s) that her remaining in power is a good thing.  Which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

She cant hold the throne at all. Loghain walked right in and said this is how its gonna be. Now I am not a believe of carrying a bloodline for Kings. But in Ferelden that seems like a big deal since the Theirin bloodline has ruled for 400 years.

Alistair makes a much more sufficient King in my opinion. And he is the heir behind his older brother Cailan. So in all rights, the throne is his.

[Alandros]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

And also, apparently some of us read the epilogue different because as far as I can tell the only bad thing about Anora's rule was the elves get slammed for RIOTING, which even in this age is a severe crime.
Her solo rule brings Fereldan to a new economic golden age. The only few notable things Alistair does as king is be well liked by his people, and made an elf a councillor, which did not result in an elf riot for some reason or another, apparently they forgot there was a draught that caused famine. He does not even bother to rule the country, he steps aside for Eamon to do his thing.
Alistair and Anora was a perfect combination of a well-liked king and a powerful rise for the county.

I would rather follow heart then brains. But thats just me. If you want to rule a country, you need to lead a country. Sure, she may be a good ruler and all that. But she doesnt exactly rouse the people for any cause, I dont even know if she could. Cailan could do that, and so could Alistair.

Plus Alistair studies the art of governance with Eamon as his advisor. With Alistair as King, he can lead and rule efficiently. Anora may be a good ruler, but she cant deal with problems with people.

Did Romeo and Juliet teach you nothing  Heart and brains should be balanced.  That's why I like the idea of my human male noble marrying her, to give that balance.

In a lot of situations I would take brains over heart.  Economic flourishing is one of the best things for a nation.

[Bratt1204]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does... And whomever is strong enough to retain it, which may be Anora if she convinces our character(s) that her remaining in power is a good thing.  Which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

She cant hold the throne at all. Loghain walked right in and said this is how its gonna be. Now I am not a believe of carrying a bloodline for Kings. But in Ferelden that seems like a big deal since the Theirin bloodline has ruled for 400 years.

Alistair makes a much more sufficient King in my opinion. And he is the heir behind his older brother Cailan. So in all rights, the throne is his.

Yes.

[Elfseeker]

Heart and Brains? that's Alistair and Anora, that is. Not the PC. Who at best will be the runner up -after- the line of kings goes south. Makes me wonder if there are any discussions with Alistair trying to make the MHN to take his place on the throne.

[Alandros]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does... And whomever is strong enough to retain it, which may be Anora if she convinces our character(s) that her remaining in power is a good thing.  Which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

She cant hold the throne at all. Loghain walked right in and said this is how its gonna be. Now I am not a believe of carrying a bloodline for Kings. But in Ferelden that seems like a big deal since the Theirin bloodline has ruled for 400 years.

Alistair makes a much more sufficient King in my opinion. And he is the heir behind his older brother Cailan. So in all rights, the throne is his.

Yes.

Well in half of the outcomes you are wrong, the throne isn't his, period

[Elfseeker]

preserve the bloodline...and if you can continue a proven trackrecord in the bargain, all the better.



The devil you know, and all that.

[Alandros]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does... And whomever is strong enough to retain it, which may be Anora if she convinces our character(s) that her remaining in power is a good thing.  Which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

She cant hold the throne at all. Loghain walked right in and said this is how its gonna be. Now I am not a believe of carrying a bloodline for Kings. But in Ferelden that seems like a big deal since the Theirin bloodline has ruled for 400 years.

Loghain got rid of the King and nearly got away with it (in some perspectives did get away with it).  So apparently even an established King can't "hold the throne" as well as you might suggest, nevertheless a bastard brother of the King.

[Thalorin1919]

Alandros wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does... And whomever is strong enough to retain it, which may be Anora if she convinces our character(s) that her remaining in power is a good thing.  Which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

She cant hold the throne at all. Loghain walked right in and said this is how its gonna be. Now I am not a believe of carrying a bloodline for Kings. But in Ferelden that seems like a big deal since the Theirin bloodline has ruled for 400 years.

Alistair makes a much more sufficient King in my opinion. And he is the heir behind his older brother Cailan. So in all rights, the throne is his.

Yes.

Well in half of the outcomes you are wrong, the throne isn't his, period

Riiight, how am I wrong? The throne is his, thats why he is sitting on it. And if not, the throne doesnt belong to the daughter of commoner blood. These are Ferelden rules, not mine.

[Axekix]

I really don't see how people can compare Anora to Duncan at all. Duncan doesn't really deceive the player. He steps in at times when the PC's life is already forfeit, so it's not as if he's forcing anything on you.



You can either die there or go with him and hopefully do some good. He doesn't tell you -everything- at the start, but again if he hadn't stepped in at all you'd probably just be dead or imprisoned for the rest of your life, so what is there to complain about?



Anora on the other hand is purely selfish in her goals. In my last playthrough I tried marrying her to Alistair but refused to spare Loghain and of course she betrayed me at the landsmeet. If she was truly looking out for the best interests of Ferelden she wouldn't throw our alliance away just for the sake of protecting her criminal father.

[Alandros]

Thalorin1919 wrote...


Riiight, how am I wrong? The throne is his, thats why he is sitting on it. And if not, the throne doesnt belong to the daughter of commoner blood. These are Ferelden rules, not mine.

Rofl... how are you wrong, because Anora can indeed become Queen and it is accepted by Ferelden (more appropriately the Landsmeet).  Whether you like it or not it is a possibility that does indeed work, hence the Landsmeet doesn't go by those rules quite as much as you seem to think they do.  I'd like to see your source for these set in stone rules as well.  Have a link to a codex that explains this?

[Thalorin1919]

Alandros wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does... And whomever is strong enough to retain it, which may be Anora if she convinces our character(s) that her remaining in power is a good thing.  Which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

She cant hold the throne at all. Loghain walked right in and said this is how its gonna be. Now I am not a believe of carrying a bloodline for Kings. But in Ferelden that seems like a big deal since the Theirin bloodline has ruled for 400 years.

Loghain got rid of the King and nearly got away with it (in some perspectives did get away with it).  So apparently even an established King can't "hold the throne" as well as you might suggest, nevertheless a bastard brother of the King.

He didnt get away with it. There were many bann's and arls that were suspicious of what Loghain when he came back to Denerim. Not just Teagan and Eamon, but other Bann's fighting civil war around the country. He didnt get away with it all, he was fighting for it. When they Grey Warden comes in, he just has the support of all those banns and arls and more to be able to bring him down.

Alistair holds the throne fine once he is on it. In the epilogues the people love him, and he rules well. Its Anora the people dont like. In one outcome, a rebellion for Alistairs cause will rise before its shut down.

[krylo]

Alandros wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Yes I never understood why Anora is so hated. I liked her. She is an excellent Queen all around. She is bad for trying to protect her throne from you? No kidding.

The Throne is not hers.

The throne is whomever holds it, which Anora does... And whomever is strong enough to retain it, which may be Anora if she convinces our character(s) that her remaining in power is a good thing.  Which as far as I'm concerned is a good thing.

She cant hold the throne at all. Loghain walked right in and said this is how its gonna be. Now I am not a believe of carrying a bloodline for Kings. But in Ferelden that seems like a big deal since the Theirin bloodline has ruled for 400 years.

Loghain got rid of the King and nearly got away with it (in some perspectives did get away with it).  So apparently even an established King can't "hold the throne" as well as you might suggest, nevertheless a bastard brother of the King.

Except he does hold it.

Also, he's already a better ruler than Anora five seconds after being named king.  Anora tries to get him executed if she is queen, even though he's one of the last Grey Wardens alive and would be riding off to fight the Blight.  Alistair, on the other hand, has her locked in a tower and officially names her heir to the throne if he dies fighting the blight.

One of them is showing a bit more wisdom here, and it's not Anora.

[Thalorin1919]

Alandros wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...


Riiight, how am I wrong? The throne is his, thats why he is sitting on it. And if not, the throne doesnt belong to the daughter of commoner blood. These are Ferelden rules, not mine.

Rofl... how are you wrong, because Anora can indeed become Queen and it is accepted by Ferelden (more appropriately the Landsmeet).  Whether you like it or not it is a possibility that does indeed work, hence the Landsmeet doesn't go by those rules quite as much as you seem to think they do.  I'd like to see your source for these set in stone rules as well.  Have a link to a codex that explains this?

I'm not going to look for a codex. Its throughout the entire game. Eamon says Theirin should hold the bloodline, and with that note, people rally behind that cause. Landsmeet has been going by that bloodline for 400 years, alot of nobles wont give that bloodline up if there is a living son of that bloodline for a commoner queen.

[Alandros]

Axekix wrote...

I really don't see how people can compare Anora to Duncan at all. Duncan doesn't really deceive the player. He steps in at times when the PC's life is already forfeit, so it's not as if he's forcing anything on you.

You can either die there or go with him and hopefully do some good. He doesn't tell you -everything- at the start, but again if he hadn't stepped in at all you'd probably just be dead or imprisoned for the rest of your life, so what is there to complain about?

Anora on the other hand is purely selfish in her goals. In my last playthrough I tried marrying her to Alistair but refused to spare Loghain and of course she betrayed me at the landsmeet. If she was truly looking out for the best interests of Ferelden she wouldn't throw our alliance away just for the sake of protecting her criminal father.

Though it's not a perfect comparison (not that there ever is such a thing) Duncan is in a situation to help the character.  Instead of helping the character and then asking this of them he makes his help dependent upon them accepting him.  Now in some cases the Right of Conscription can get people out of trouble that only works if you do become a Warden, on the other hand as a human noble this is not the case.  If you refuse then you die (hence the game doesn't allow you to, on top of their being no purpose for the game if you do refuse).  In that case we have to possible outcomes if the player were to refuse:

1) Duncan would stick to his word and let you die nonetheless.  That means he's quite the coldhearted bast***.  

2) He would save you anyways, in this case he is being deceptive by giving you a false ultimatum.


So despite those aspects of Duncan that can be quite nasty one can see past it to his intentions.  Now some people view Anora's intentions as purely selfish, fair enough, we can all come to our own conclusions (as if anyone could prevent anyone else from doing such lol) but there are those of us who see her intentions also have a Noble streak to them, that she has proven she can rule effectively and she also has Ferelden's interests at mind.

[Alandros]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...


Riiight, how am I wrong? The throne is his, thats why he is sitting on it. And if not, the throne doesnt belong to the daughter of commoner blood. These are Ferelden rules, not mine.

Rofl... how are you wrong, because Anora can indeed become Queen and it is accepted by Ferelden (more appropriately the Landsmeet).  Whether you like it or not it is a possibility that does indeed work, hence the Landsmeet doesn't go by those rules quite as much as you seem to think they do.  I'd like to see your source for these set in stone rules as well.  Have a link to a codex that explains this?

I'm not going to look for a codex. Its throughout the entire game. Eamon says Theirin should hold the bloodline, and with that note, people rally behind that cause. Landsmeet has been going by that bloodline for 400 years, alot of nobles wont give that bloodline up if there is a living son of that bloodline for a commoner queen.

So Eamon's word is law?

If that's your opinion that's fine but don't claim it's the set in stone rules of Ferelden without something to back it up (especially when the game can in fact go contrary to what you claim).

Plus Anora is the daughter of a Teyrn... just like Loghain reminds you when you can say the same thing, that Anora is the child of a farmer, he reminds you that he was a Teyrn by then, far from commoner.  If anything like the human noble they are a child of a Teyrn and she happens to be the Queen who has ruled for 5 years and is respected.