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[Realmzmaster]

The throne is Alistair's if he chooses to accept it and the PC backs his claim. Half of the outcomes have Alistair as not being King because he choose not to accept it. He rejected the throne, not because it was not his by birthright.

Anora has no birthright claim on the throne. She was married to Cailan who was king. She is a Queen Consort. Only a Queen Regent can claim the throne.

Yes, Anora was ruling the land for five years, but that is only because Cailan was king and he was a direct descendent of King Calenhad. (Just like Alistair). If there was no living heir the Landsmeet would prpbably have kept Anora as Queen.

Anora herself states that a marriage with Alistair strengths both her position and Alistair's. But in this case Alistair's has the stronger position. Bloodline seems to be very important in Ferelden, since they fought to perserve it according to Arl Eamon. The Landsmeet can decide whoever they want as King, but if a living heir in the royal bloodline exists and it can be proven they will side with the bloodline.

As a male human noble you can put forth your character as king by marrying Anora, but Alistair would still have to reject his claim on the throne and swear fealty.

But for any of this to bear fruit you have to defeat Loghain in the duel.

[Thalorin1919]

Alandros wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...


Riiight, how am I wrong? The throne is his, thats why he is sitting on it. And if not, the throne doesnt belong to the daughter of commoner blood. These are Ferelden rules, not mine.

Rofl... how are you wrong, because Anora can indeed become Queen and it is accepted by Ferelden (more appropriately the Landsmeet).  Whether you like it or not it is a possibility that does indeed work, hence the Landsmeet doesn't go by those rules quite as much as you seem to think they do.  I'd like to see your source for these set in stone rules as well.  Have a link to a codex that explains this?

I'm not going to look for a codex. Its throughout the entire game. Eamon says Theirin should hold the bloodline, and with that note, people rally behind that cause. Landsmeet has been going by that bloodline for 400 years, alot of nobles wont give that bloodline up if there is a living son of that bloodline for a commoner queen.

So Eamon's word is law?

If that's your opinion that's fine but don't claim it's the set in stone rules of Ferelden without something to back it up (especially when the game can in fact go contrary to what you claim).

Plus Anora is the daughter of a Teyrn... just like Loghain reminds you when you can say the same thing, that Anora is the child of a farmer, he reminds you that he was a Teyrn by then, far from commoner.  If anything like the human noble they are a child of a Teyrn and she happens to be the Queen who has ruled for 5 years and is respected.

Eamon's word isnt law...*facepalm*
Its just painfully obvious there are other nobles that think like him, even though you dont talk to him.

Son of a king > Daughter of a teyrn.

Deal with it.

[Realmzmaster]

As far as Anora being misunderstood, everyone can look at the same facts, interactions and come to a different conclusion about her.



It also depends on your origin. In general, A city elf would find Alistair more appealing than Anora. A Dwarf noble or commoner could probably care less either way. The mage wants to be free of the Chantry. The Dalish elf wants his/her people to be left alone.

The Human noble wants Howe dead and Loghain too depending on the circumstances. He can use Anora to grab power, put Alistair on the throne or leave Anora on the throne.

Anora being misunderstood is a matter of opinion.

[Vicious]

my MHN cannot in good conscience put Alistair on the throne. Why? He is the last of a line which failed time and time again to keep Ferelden safe. His ancestor, Calenhad, had the Couslands join him at the tip of a sword. The Couslands always fought for Ferelden's freedom, and never bent knee to Tyrants. [King Arland/Orlais] Couslands are damn near the oldest family in Ferelden, they SHOULD be in charge.



That said, this is an interesting thread. I see "Anora has no claim!" a lot, but she is the daughter of a Teryn and Queen. I never once heard her called Queen-Consort or Princess-Consort, and I don't know how the hell people regard her as that here, except as, yknow, standard forum revisionist history.

[Axekix]

Alandros wrote...

Axekix wrote...

I really don't see how people can compare Anora to Duncan at all. Duncan doesn't really deceive the player. He steps in at times when the PC's life is already forfeit, so it's not as if he's forcing anything on you.

You can either die there or go with him and hopefully do some good. He doesn't tell you -everything- at the start, but again if he hadn't stepped in at all you'd probably just be dead or imprisoned for the rest of your life, so what is there to complain about?

Anora on the other hand is purely selfish in her goals. In my last playthrough I tried marrying her to Alistair but refused to spare Loghain and of course she betrayed me at the landsmeet. If she was truly looking out for the best interests of Ferelden she wouldn't throw our alliance away just for the sake of protecting her criminal father.

Though it's not a perfect comparison (not that there ever is such a thing) Duncan is in a situation to help the character.  Instead of helping the character and then asking this of them he makes his help dependent upon them accepting him.  Now in some cases the Right of Conscription can get people out of trouble that only works if you do become a Warden, on the other hand as a human noble this is not the case.  If you refuse then you die (hence the game doesn't allow you to, on top of their being no purpose for the game if you do refuse).  In that case we have to possible outcomes if the player were to refuse:

1) Duncan would stick to his word and let you die nonetheless.  That means he's quite the coldhearted bast***.  

2) He would save you anyways, in this case he is being deceptive by giving you a false ultimatum.

Well, Duncan isn't obligated to help the PC beforehand.  It would certainly be nice for him to do so, but most things in life come with strings attatched, no?

At that point the PC may as well already be dead for all intents and purposes.  Duncan provides an alternative, which we find out later is its own death sentence, but considering you'd have perished there otherwise it seems like a beneficial "deal" so to speak. 

Anora is willing to just completely throw you under the bus if your approach differs from hers.  Actually I kinda like that about her, she definitely makes the story more interesting. 

[Alandros]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The throne is Alistair's if he chooses to accept it and the PC backs his claim. Half of the outcomes have Alistair as not being King because he choose not to accept it. He rejected the throne, not because it was not his by birthright.

Umm... No.  In one of my playthroughs Alistair says he'll be King... I said no, that Anora would be Queen  So the Warden has the obvious power to choose.

[CalJones]

Vicious wrote...

my MHN cannot in good conscience put Alistair on the throne. Why? He is the last of a line which failed time and time again to keep Ferelden safe. His ancestor, Calenhad, had the Couslands join him at the tip of a sword. The Couslands always fought for Ferelden's freedom, and never bent knee to Tyrants. [King Arland/Orlais] Couslands are damn near the oldest family in Ferelden, they SHOULD be in charge.

That said, this is an interesting thread. I see "Anora has no claim!" a lot, but she is the daughter of a Teryn and Queen. I never once heard her called Queen-Consort or Princess-Consort, and I don't know how the hell people regard her as that here, except as, yknow, standard forum revisionist history.

Interesting viewpoint.

My first Cousland (and first DA character) did execute Loghain but saw the quickest way of uniting Fereldan was to marry off Anora to Alistair. (That's the only game thus far where I have killed Loghain - I felt so bad about it I haven't done it since. I'm a bit of a softy like that). My current Cousland sees Alistair as weak and is going to take Anora for himself, because he knows he is a better leader.

The main thing with Alistair is that he's a nice chap and all, but he's a reluctant king. He doesn't want the gig. Anora does, and has done very well at it. Together they make a good team, but on his own I couldn't help but feel Alistair would be a disaster (I'm sure the epilogue says he's fantastic or something, but all evidence in game points to him being a bit rubbish).
One thing you can't help but agree with is that the Theirin bloodline is extremely unlucky. Perhaps it's for the best that it dies out.

[Alandros]

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Thalorin1919 wrote...


Riiight, how am I wrong? The throne is his, thats why he is sitting on it. And if not, the throne doesnt belong to the daughter of commoner blood. These are Ferelden rules, not mine.

Rofl... how are you wrong, because Anora can indeed become Queen and it is accepted by Ferelden (more appropriately the Landsmeet).  Whether you like it or not it is a possibility that does indeed work, hence the Landsmeet doesn't go by those rules quite as much as you seem to think they do.  I'd like to see your source for these set in stone rules as well.  Have a link to a codex that explains this?

I'm not going to look for a codex. Its throughout the entire game. Eamon says Theirin should hold the bloodline, and with that note, people rally behind that cause. Landsmeet has been going by that bloodline for 400 years, alot of nobles wont give that bloodline up if there is a living son of that bloodline for a commoner queen.

So Eamon's word is law?

If that's your opinion that's fine but don't claim it's the set in stone rules of Ferelden without something to back it up (especially when the game can in fact go contrary to what you claim).

Plus Anora is the daughter of a Teyrn... just like Loghain reminds you when you can say the same thing, that Anora is the child of a farmer, he reminds you that he was a Teyrn by then, far from commoner.  If anything like the human noble they are a child of a Teyrn and she happens to be the Queen who has ruled for 5 years and is respected.

Eamon's word isnt law...*facepalm*
Its just painfully obvious there are other nobles that think like him, even though you dont talk to him.

Son of a king > Daughter of a teyrn.

Deal with it.

Lol again no.  It can be... and it's   Bastard Son of a King compared to the Daughter of a Teyrn who is the current Queen.  At least compare it fairly

The fact that the game can go both directions suggests that you are indeed wrong and need to deal with it.  I have no problem dealing with Anora's claim losing out (in fact my first playthrough I went this way) but you should not be so much in denial about her claim since it can indeed work.

[Alandros]

CalJones wrote...

Vicious wrote...

my MHN cannot in good conscience put Alistair on the throne. Why? He is the last of a line which failed time and time again to keep Ferelden safe. His ancestor, Calenhad, had the Couslands join him at the tip of a sword. The Couslands always fought for Ferelden's freedom, and never bent knee to Tyrants. [King Arland/Orlais] Couslands are damn near the oldest family in Ferelden, they SHOULD be in charge.

That said, this is an interesting thread. I see "Anora has no claim!" a lot, but she is the daughter of a Teryn and Queen. I never once heard her called Queen-Consort or Princess-Consort, and I don't know how the hell people regard her as that here, except as, yknow, standard forum revisionist history.

Interesting viewpoint.

My first Cousland (and first DA character) did execute Loghain but saw the quickest way of uniting Fereldan was to marry off Anora to Alistair. (That's the only game thus far where I have killed Loghain - I felt so bad about it I haven't done it since. I'm a bit of a softy like that). My current Cousland sees Alistair as weak and is going to take Anora for himself, because he knows he is a better leader.

The main thing with Alistair is that he's a nice chap and all, but he's a reluctant king. He doesn't want the gig. Anora does, and has done very well at it. Together they make a good team, but on his own I couldn't help but feel Alistair would be a disaster (I'm sure the epilogue says he's fantastic or something, but all evidence in game points to him being a bit rubbish).
One thing you can't help but agree with is that the Theirin bloodline is extremely unlucky. Perhaps it's for the best that it dies out.

I agree with both of you.  If you put a non-hardened Alistair on the throne it doesn't say he's fantastic, it says he's well like but that he avoids governing (making him a bad king in my book).  In fairness a hardened Alistair seems to rule well.

[Helios969]

master-fluff wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

According to whom?  Even if there is some legal technicality that supports your claim, she commands the respect of both the people and the nobility, and Loghain himself assumes and wields power through his wife's position.  It's pretty clear that without my intervention at the Landsmeet, the Darkspawn threat, and the dirty dealings of her father that her popularity would have been enough to ensure her place among the Fereldan elite.  Either as queen or through an arranged marriage between her and her dissenters.  Perhaps her and Bann Teagan.

Helios, if Anora is truely a queen regnant after the death of Cailan and legally holds the throne as you suggest, why does Loghain need to declare himself her regent, why is there any need for a Landsmeet, and why is does she have a second coronation (assuming she's declared queen at the apparently unnecessary Landsmeet) ? 

Also, if she's so popular with her subjects, why is there a civil war when Loghain unnecessarily declares himself regent for her ?

1) Never said legally, only practically.  Haven't read the Complete Guide to Fereldan Law and Succession.

2) Loghain doesn't need to declare himself regent, he just takes it.

3) There wasn't a need for a Landsmeet, it was a necessary move to remove Loghain.  If not for Loghain's apparent madness and long list of despicable acts - men, dwarves, elves, and mages could have proceeded directly to the final battle.

4) The second coronation was just a formality, to give it legitimacy.  If the Queen had had a son with Cailan, it would have been necessary regardless.

5) There is civil war because Loghain took control from Anora.  Just read her background on Dragon Age Wiki.

[Realmzmaster]

Feledren is based loosely on medieval Europe (according to the writers) , specifically on feudalism. The title Teryn is a title granted by the King normally to a noble. Loghain was given the title because of his defense of Feledren against Orlais and the fact he was a good friend of King Maric.
Loghain is a commoner, He is not of noble birth therefore none of his descendents are of noble birth.
Anora is Queen Consort because that is the title normally associated with one who marries into a royal bloodline.
Queen Regent is the title given to queens who inherit the throne by birthright. The present English Monarchry is an example. George VI was king. He had two daughters, Elizabeth and Margaret. Elizabeth was the oldest. Upon the king's death she became Queen Regent or simply Queen.
Teryn is a title that is granted by the king or queen and it can be removed. You cannot remove a title from noble birth.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 25 février 2010 - 05:13 .

[krylo]

Vicious wrote...
That said, this is an interesting thread. I see "Anora has no claim!" a lot, but she is the daughter of a Teryn and Queen. I never once heard her called Queen-Consort or Princess-Consort, and I don't know how the hell people regard her as that here, except as, yknow, standard forum revisionist history.

Man, can you stop being an arrogant jackass for like one post, or is that too much to ask?

Play the game.  While it doesn't say straight out that she is Queen-Consort or Princess-Consort, nor would anyone call her that at this point, for many reasons--because her husband is dead and that title no longer belongs to her, Loghain made himself her regent, and no one actually SAYS 'Queen-Consort'.  You'd be hard pressed to find a single piece of literature or movie wherein that name is applied beyond describing the Queen's powers to someone.

Further: When you marry Alistair as a HFN, you become HIS Queen Consort.   To explain why this is important:

Anora is the daughter to the Hero of Ferelden.

You are THE Hero of Ferelden.

Anora is the daughter of a Teyrn.

You are one of the two remaining Couslands--and thus a Teyrna.

Anora, before marrying Cailin had no titles.

Your HFN was/is a far more important noble than Anora could ever be on her own.

The idea that The Warden becomes Queen-Consort to ALISTAIR of all people, while Anora is Queen-Regent, given both backgrouns is honestly ludicrous.  Especially considering that Loghain is able to simply appoint himself the Queen's regent.  Were she a Queen-Regent, she would have already BEEN the regent, and Loghain wouldn't have been able to seize power so easily.

Modifié par krylo, 24 février 2010 - 10:52 .

[Alandros]

[quote]krylo wrote...

[quote]

Your HFN was/is a far more important noble than Anora could ever be on her own.

[/quote]

Interesting thought but it seems the actual outcomes would suggest you might be wrong.  A human noble cannot ever take the throne on their own, female or male, and Anora can.  Hence Anora is easily more important than the human noble at least in throne taking power apparently, whether you like that or not.

[krylo]

Alandros wrote...

Interesting thought but it seems the actual outcomes would suggest you might be wrong.  A human noble cannot ever take the throne on their own, female or male, and Anora can.  Hence Anora is easily more important than the human noble at least in throne taking power apparently, whether you like that or not.

Which is why I added the qualifier ON HER OWN.

By marrying Cailin she became more important.

She was a lesser noble to begin with than the HFN is at the time of her marriage to the king.

Edit: Though really you should respond to Realmz, he has a stronger argument here than I.

Modifié par krylo, 24 février 2010 - 10:58 .

[master-fluff]

Realmzmaster wrote...



Loghain is a commoner, He is not of noble birth therefore none of his descendents are of noble birth.

Terynirs are heredity (as witnessed by the Highever/Cousland Terynir) . If Loghain was made a Teryn then all his children will also be noble by birth, as will their children until the line runs out. Therefore Anora is noble by birth thanks to her father.

Queen Regent is the title given to queens who inherit the throne by birthright.

I think you mean queen regnant. The word regent means something completely different. But you're right, Anora was queen consort (no royal birthright, married to Cailan, the King Regnant) and following his death became a queen dowager. She can become Queen Regnant in her own right if a Landsmeet wishes it.

[Alandros]

krylo wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Interesting thought but it seems the actual outcomes would suggest you might be wrong.  A human noble cannot ever take the throne on their own, female or male, and Anora can.  Hence Anora is easily more important than the human noble at least in throne taking power apparently, whether you like that or not.

Which is why I added the qualifier ON HER OWN.

By marrying Cailin she became more important.

She was a lesser noble to begin with than the HFN is at the time of her marriage to the king.

Edit: Though really you should respond to Realmz, he has a stronger argument here than I.

Fair enough... though she did indeed marry Cailan and she is indeed the current Queen so if the story hadn't happened the way it was she would indeed be less powerful but that's playing down the what if route quite a bit (possibly to pointlessness).

[CalJones]

Grey Wardens give up their titles and family names, so you can argue that even a Cousland Warden has no claim to anything. (If you induct Loghain into the Wardens, he is no longer a teyrn either). Fergus becomes the Teyrn - at most you would be lord or lady Cousland.



Also, you're not the hero of Fereldan yet - you might have solved a few problems but you won't be getting such mighty accolades until after the archdemon is slain.



Under those circumstances I don't see how you could be more important than the existing queen, even if her father is of common birth.

[krylo]

Alandros wrote...

krylo wrote...

Alandros wrote...

Interesting thought but it seems the actual outcomes would suggest you might be wrong.  A human noble cannot ever take the throne on their own, female or male, and Anora can.  Hence Anora is easily more important than the human noble at least in throne taking power apparently, whether you like that or not.

Which is why I added the qualifier ON HER OWN.

By marrying Cailin she became more important.

She was a lesser noble to begin with than the HFN is at the time of her marriage to the king.

Edit: Though really you should respond to Realmz, he has a stronger argument here than I.

Fair enough... though she did indeed marry Cailan and she is indeed the current Queen so if the story hadn't happened the way it was she would indeed be less powerful but that's playing down the what if route quite a bit (possibly to pointlessness).

Yes, but that's not the point of my argument.

The point of it is that if a higher noble becomes Queen-Consort, particularly to a king whom she can wrap around her little finger with two words, then there is less than no chance of Anora being anything greater than that.

Edit: Cal, read above.  The point was regarding the fact that the HFN becomes Queen-Consort so the idea that Anora became Queen-Regnant is ridiculous.

Edit 2: You can request land and titles in every ending wherin you survive and the HFN can become queen. while HMN can be king.  You are also allowed to introduce yourself as a Cousland and/or as Teyrna of Highever on multiple occassions.

Our characters don't pay much attention to the rules regarding lands and titles.  

Modifié par krylo, 24 février 2010 - 11:08 .

[Alandros]

CalJones wrote...

Grey Wardens give up their titles and family names, so you can argue that even a Cousland Warden has no claim to anything. (If you induct Loghain into the Wardens, he is no longer a teyrn either). Fergus becomes the Teyrn - at most you would be lord or lady Cousland.

Also, you're not the hero of Fereldan yet - you might have solved a few problems but you won't be getting such mighty accolades until after the archdemon is slain.

Under those circumstances I don't see how you could be more important than the existing queen, even if her father is of common birth.

That is a good point, you don't become the Hero until after the Landsmeet + siege of Denerim.  You also don't get a chance to get granted being a Teyrn until you are asked for your boon (in which you can get Loghains Teyrnage).

[krylo]

Alandros wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Grey Wardens give up their titles and family names, so you can argue that even a Cousland Warden has no claim to anything. (If you induct Loghain into the Wardens, he is no longer a teyrn either). Fergus becomes the Teyrn - at most you would be lord or lady Cousland.

Also, you're not the hero of Fereldan yet - you might have solved a few problems but you won't be getting such mighty accolades until after the archdemon is slain.

Under those circumstances I don't see how you could be more important than the existing queen, even if her father is of common birth.

That is a good point, you don't become the Hero until after the Landsmeet + siege of Denerim.  You also don't get a chance to get granted being a Teyrn until you are asked for your boon (in which you can get Loghains Teyrnage).

Except the point doesn't matter because my point was based off of the EPILOGUE SLIDES which NECESSARILY happen after all of that.

Man, whatever, I'm out.  You guys are giving me a headache with the inability to understand how arguments build upon past posts and respond only to a singular post with arguments that are entirely lacking in anything resembling coherence when taken as part of the ongoing argument.

[WilliamShatner]

I think she's lovely, and she was very nice to my character.

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, when Anora is solo queen, doesn't she refer to the Teyrnir of Gwaren as her father's, not her own? If it were truly passed onto her, wouldn't it be hers? When he was stripped on his title, it seems she lost claim to it as well.



Meanwhile, the Cousland obviously has noble backing regarding his/her Teyrnir.



What is the reason Anora gives for marrying the male Cousland? Does she say it gives her claim a legitimacy it otherwise would not? Or something else?

[Yrkoon]

Xandurpein wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Really?  You don't think so?   So  you have a different take on the whole cutscene that occurs  in Denerim after the Ostagar disaster?  You know, the part where  Logain  demands that everyone  help him rebuild what was lost at Ostagar, and where he angerly  warns all the nobles that he'll brook dessention from ANYONE? 

Sounds to me  like he's already taken the mantle, and started  barking out the new rules--- as was his plan all along.
 

Loghain is ready to defend Fereldan at any cost. If a King, like Maric, does a good job of it, he is happy to let him rule and stick to leading armies. If however the King is dead and the nobles in the country seem to be, to him,  squabbling fools he will do everything he can to save the country from what he percieves as ruin.

Right.  Which brings us back to his decision to plunge the country into turmoil by  leaving Caelin  alone on the battlefield... to die.  And  then trying to assassinate/poison  the competition right afterwords.  Not to mention the fact that he really didn't  NEED to do any of that anyway.  Fereldan still has a, popular, ruling Queen at that point...


Again,  looks to me like it was his plan all along... prior to the Ostagar battle.

Even Anora suspects that it was... 

I guess it's derailing the thread, as it is about Anora, but yes. He was planning to do something about Cailan, whom he thought was betraying Fereldan. The point is that all the things he did, and I'm the first to admit that I think al ot of it was wrong and even evil, he did to defend Fereldan as he saw it. It was never a question of grabbing power for the sake of power. He grabbed power, because he, mistakenly, thought he was the only one who could save Fereldan - from Orlais, from the darkspawn and even from Cailan and Eamon.

We really don't need to discuss  irrelevancies like "why  did he grab power".    The  simple fact that he elaborately plotted to acquire that power is more than enough  to completely disprove the ridiculous claim that he never wanted  to rule.

LOL. Of course why you grab power is relevant. You and Eamon are trying to grab power from Loghain, aren't you? You are doing it for a good thing, but still...

Are you actually following  this debate? Or are you simply speaking in "general" terms?

The claim was made way back on page 2 that Logain never wanted to rule.  So I  provided some  in-game  examples to show just how much he DOES want to rule.

If you want to now  talk about the reasons  why he wants to rule, you go right ahead lol.  But it won't have squat to do with the debate.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 février 2010 - 11:53 .

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

Grey Wardens give up their titles and family names, so you can argue that even a Cousland Warden has no claim to anything. (If you induct Loghain into the Wardens, he is no longer a teyrn either). Fergus becomes the Teyrn - at most you would be lord or lady Cousland.

That is a policy of the Grey Wardens amongst themselves, not a factor of Fereldan politics.  Obviously Grey Wardens can hold titles, because you and Alistair could well end up with both.

[Elfseeker]

So in essence a lot of mess could be cleared up by the game leaving out such details as regent this or consort that. For shame.