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[Jax Sparrow]

Nhadalie wrote... And the being a failed baby maker thing makes me angry. Seriously. Male Grey Wardens can have kids. Why can't female ones?

Choose to believe differently, just because you have yet to hear of one means the toon can't be one? They also say darkspawn are mindless savages but obviously the Architect proves them wrong... or that Wardens die after thirty years, Avernus prooved that wrong by a few centuries, it seems... So, I suggest we believe what we want.

[SarEnyaDor]

*A* Grey Warden might be able to have children, two together is the problem with Alistair ... my plan is to visit Teagan once in a while, you know, see how Redcliffe is doing.....

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 15 mars 2010 - 02:29 .

[Vim]

Tamyn wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

She was Al's mother, that is something that I'm certain of.  Maric and Fiona get it on in the deep roads.  Loghain and Queen Rowan have a tryst as well, but I don't remember where that happened off the top of my head.  I think Loghain and Rowan have their fling before Maric and Rowan marry.   Duncan and Fiona visit King Maric at the palace in Denerim nearly a year after their trip to the deep roads and the mess with Bergan, Geneieve, where the Architect story begins.  It's Duncan who carries baby Al in to meet his father for the first time once Fiona and Maric have their private chat.  Maric is the one who turns Al over to Arl Eamon to raise because of Queen Rowan.  It had to be Maric who created the cover story.  Goldanna's mother must have already been pregnant and she died with her child or someone killed her to make the cover story for Alistair. 

Except when Maric impregnates Fiona, Rowan was long dead. When Alistair was born, Rowan was still alive, and Alistair was given to Eamon to spare Rowan's reputation and keep Cailan's standing in the succession secure.

UGGGH!!!! Alistair's story seemed so consistent before I read the Calling.  Now that I've read the Calling all I get is a headache when I try to figure out whether Fiona is really Alistair's mother or not.  How could Maric have refused to recognize Alistair to avoid embarrassment to Queen Rowan when Rowan died nearly 3 years before Alistair was even born.  I can't see even a young Alistair buying that excuse.  It makes no sense unless Fiona isn't Alistair's mother and Alistair is quite a bit older. But then you have to wonder what the whole point of that ending was. Is there yet another illegitimate child of Maric's waiting in the wings to be introduced at some point down the road?  Feh.

[qalan]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Page 441 of "The Calling" is where King Maric is presented to his and Fiona's son with Duncan carrying Alistair in. Of course King Maric is stunned and there is no doubt in his mind that this child is his son, the next paragraphs mention Maric seeing the how Calian and Alistair favor. Fiona makes mention that being a female grey warden and the odds of having a child are rare but here is Alistair as proof that it is possible. So this is also the reason that HNF doesn't have that hard of a time getting Al to marry her.

We know that Darkspawn can reproduce so why not Grey Wardens.

No where in The Calling does it say that Fiona's baby is Alistair!  You're reading the unnamed baby as Alistair, but there's no definitive statement in the book (or elsewhere) that said baby is Alistair, only that it's a son of Maric and Fiona and brother to Cailan!

[qalan]

Vim wrote...Is there yet another illegitimate child of Maric's waiting in the wings to be introduced at some point down the road?  Feh.

Personally, I'm guessing 'yes'.

[SarEnyaDor]

Jax Sparrow wrote...

 So, I suggest we believe what we want.

As Flemeth would say "That is all we ever do."

[Stoomkal]

One thing that makes this confusing is that David Gaider ****ed up his own story - he submitted the wrong manuscript to one of the publishers!



This leads to there being different dates and ages of the characters in different versions of the book... I believe the US and EU versions have different ages mentioned.



He clarified the *real* age of Alistair and others in a thread a long time ago... sorry I have no idea where.



It makes arguments like this a little difficult.

[SarEnyaDor]

Well, whether or not he (Cailan) was 5 or 9 isn't what is important. What IS important is that many people (Eamon, Alistair, Loghain, Cailan) knew about Alistair being born, and that he was kept from Rowan to spare her, and so she was alive when he was born, and she had been dead for at least 2-3 years before Maric even met Fiona, let alone knocked her up.

[ArcanistLibram]

Vim wrote...

 How could Maric have refused to recognize Alistair to avoid embarrassment to Queen Rowan when Rowan died nearly 3 years before Alistair was even born.

It would make Rowan about equivalent to some random Orlesian elf mage Maric happened to meet through sheer coincidence. Acknowledge the child would be pretty much spitting on Rowan's memory.

The whole thing is probably just an epic troll, but I don't think Maric was the type to sleep around. I don't think he would have gotten with of Eamon's maids pregnant.

[qalan]

I'm basing my chronology on the US Version.  In that version, at the first audience between Maric and Genevieve, she says it's been fourteen years since Maric and Loghain travelled the Deep Roads (in The Stolen Throne).  By my calculation, that means the Calling took place around 9:12, or about 18 years before the game begins, which means that Fiona and Maric's baby would be 17 or so...

[lady winde]

I think people are forgetting that Dragon Age is one of those games that you can't take everything that you are told or have read at face value. For instance David Gaider already said that some codex entries are written from a person's point of view or impressions of situations as they saw it. A bit of a stretch but kind of like how recorded history is different from country to country.



In Alistair's and Loghain's case they both could have been told the Goldanna/Servingwench story with Rowan added into the mix as a red herring. Fiona herself told Maric to make sure the baby never found out about her and to tell the baby its mother was actually human.



Seriously though I'd just be happy if somehow it was clarified in the expansion. New baby brother? Awesomesauce! Elf mage your mother? LOL@shockednobles/S****'llbeourli'lsekrit! I don't care which way it turns out if it's clarified at all.

[qalan]

Yes, lots of red herrings - that's why I don't think you can be sure one way or the other...  I'm sure it will get clarified one way or the other some day (and in a way that earns someone some coin from game/book sales!) 

[Vim]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Vim wrote...

 How could Maric have refused to recognize Alistair to avoid embarrassment to Queen Rowan when Rowan died nearly 3 years before Alistair was even born.

It would make Rowan about equivalent to some random Orlesian elf mage Maric happened to meet through sheer coincidence. Acknowledge the child would be pretty much spitting on Rowan's memory.

I strongly disagree. Lack of an heir is an extreme threat to the stability of the realm.  Recognizing a bastard is better than having no heir at all.  And with Rowan having passed away, Eamon's faction would have had no reason to fight the outcome.  Hell, Eamon makes it very clear that he prefers Alistair over either Loghain or Anora in Origins despite being Rowan's brother.

The whole thing is probably just an epic troll, but I don't think Maric was the type to sleep around. I don't think he would have gotten with of Eamon's maids pregnant.

I don't know what to think on this one. The sources conflict too much.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

qalan wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Page 441 of "The Calling" is where King Maric is presented to his and Fiona's son with Duncan carrying Alistair in. Of course King Maric is stunned and there is no doubt in his mind that this child is his son, the next paragraphs mention Maric seeing the how Calian and Alistair favor. Fiona makes mention that being a female grey warden and the odds of having a child are rare but here is Alistair as proof that it is possible. So this is also the reason that HNF doesn't have that hard of a time getting Al to marry her.

We know that Darkspawn can reproduce so why not Grey Wardens.

No where in The Calling does it say that Fiona's baby is Alistair!  You're reading the unnamed baby as Alistair, but there's no definitive statement in the book (or elsewhere) that said baby is Alistair, only that it's a son of Maric and Fiona and brother to Cailan!

Fiona takes off her amulet and asks that this be given to her son.  That tells me Alistair is Fiona and Maric's son. 

Nope I was wrong on this, I read alot and have nearly 2,000 hardbound titles.  I might have this confused with another novel and amulet is stuck in my head.  Still strange though, Alistair's story with amulet and Fiona wearing one, then Maric and Fiona do the 10 toes up and 10 toes down boggy.  But, Fiona does have a child with Maric, I always assumed it was Alistair.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 15 mars 2010 - 04:43 .

[Vim]

qalan wrote...

I'm basing my chronology on the US Version.  In that version, at the first audience between Maric and Genevieve, she says it's been fourteen years since Maric and Loghain travelled the Deep Roads (in The Stolen Throne).  By my calculation, that means the Calling took place around 9:12, or about 18 years before the game begins, which means that Fiona and Maric's baby would be 17 or so...

In the English pdf copy of the book I have, it is said that:

Ferelden threw off Orlesian rule 8 years before (p. 16).
It has been 8 years since Maric's expedition into the Deep Roads (p. 24)
It has been 3 years since Queen Rowan's death. (p. 29)
Cailan is age 5. (p. 93)

Other versions give different numbers for all these.  In a post a few weeks ago David Gaider clarified that Cailan was indeed 5 at the time of the novel (not 9 as stated in other versions) and that Queen Rowan died 2 years before the novel (not 3 as stated in my version).  If he's given dates on the first two items above I haven't seen them, but the wiki contradicts my copy of the novel saying that Ferelden threw off Orlesian rule 11 years before instead of 8, and the expedition into the Deep Roads was 14 years instead of 8.

This is why I get a headache every time I think about Alister's maternity or age.

Modifié par Vim, 15 mars 2010 - 03:16 .

[qalan]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Fiona takes off her amulet and asks that this be given to her son.  That tells me Alistair is Fiona and Maric's son. 

I've just re-read the final few pages of The Calling (twice) and nowhere did I see that mentioned...

[Vim]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

qalan wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Page 441 of "The Calling" is where King Maric is presented to his and Fiona's son with Duncan carrying Alistair in. Of course King Maric is stunned and there is no doubt in his mind that this child is his son, the next paragraphs mention Maric seeing the how Calian and Alistair favor. Fiona makes mention that being a female grey warden and the odds of having a child are rare but here is Alistair as proof that it is possible. So this is also the reason that HNF doesn't have that hard of a time getting Al to marry her.

We know that Darkspawn can reproduce so why not Grey Wardens.

No where in The Calling does it say that Fiona's baby is Alistair!  You're reading the unnamed baby as Alistair, but there's no definitive statement in the book (or elsewhere) that said baby is Alistair, only that it's a son of Maric and Fiona and brother to Cailan!

Fiona takes off her amulet and asks that this be given to her son.  That tells me Alistair is Fiona and Maric's son. 

Yes, this is a major reason why I have difficulty letting go of the possibility that Alistair is Fiona's son despite how badly that possibility conflicts in other ways with events in the game.   I'm inclined to believe Alistair was supposed to be Fiona's son, but that this wasn't decided until late in the design process for the game. Then they either didn't dedicate anyone to going through the game to ensure consistency or whoever was supposed to do it either got reassigned to some other pressing task, or simply ran out of time.

[SarEnyaDor]

Although the amulet is suspicious it's not like Fiona is the only person who ever wanted to give her child something of hers. It's common for parents to do that, pass something of theirs on to the child if the knew they weren't ever going to see them again - like a dying woman might do, too. :s



But wasn't Fiona's amulet magic or glowy in the book?

[Vim]

qalan wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Fiona takes off her amulet and asks that this be given to her son.  That tells me Alistair is Fiona and Maric's son. 

I've just re-read the final few pages of The Calling (twice) and nowhere did I see that mentioned...

Hmm...I can't find it either. I could have sworn it was there, but if it is, I'm not seeing it either.

[qalan]

Chronology aside, at the end of The Calling, it's Duncan that offers to watch over the child and bring news of him to Maric from time to time.  So how does Duncan place the child with Eamon?  How does Duncan even know Eamon at that point and why would he trust him with Fiona's child?

Again, I'm not saying that Alistair is not Fiona's child, but lacking a definitive statement (which Gaider has carefully not made, one way or the other) I think it's premature to assume he is...

[Vim]

lady winde wrote...

I think people are forgetting that Dragon Age is one of those games that you can't take everything that you are told or have read at face value. For instance David Gaider already said that some codex entries are written from a person's point of view or impressions of situations as they saw it. A bit of a stretch but kind of like how recorded history is different from country to country.

In Alistair's and Loghain's case they both could have been told the Goldanna/Servingwench story with Rowan added into the mix as a red herring. Fiona herself told Maric to make sure the baby never found out about her and to tell the baby its mother was actually human.

It's hard to pass off a child that is nearly three as a newborn. Nobody would buy it.   It also doesn't make sense for Eamon to tell a young Alistair that Maric would recognize him were it not for the humiliation it would cause Queen Rowan when Queen Rowan passed away 2 years before he was even conceived.

Seriously though I'd just be happy if somehow it was clarified in the expansion. New baby brother? Awesomesauce! Elf mage your mother? LOL@shockednobles/S****'llbeourli'lsekrit! I don't care which way it turns out if it's clarified at all.

I seriously hope so. I really hate these inconsistencies and I'd be ecstatic if David Gaider or someone else involved with the plot at Bioware would once and for all end the confusion and clarify this matter for us.

[zchen]

what if Alistair being Maric's son is fake? He's story was made up and was brought to the forefront in order to protect the real child of the Maric/Fiona hook-up?

[SarEnyaDor]

Too many conspiracy theories now. Time to go to bed. LOL

[qalan]

Vim wrote...

It's hard to pass off a child that is nearly three as a newborn. Nobody would buy it.   It also doesn't make sense for Eamon to tell a young Alistair that Maric would recognize him were it not for the humiliation it would cause Queen Rowan when Queen Rowan passed away 2 years before he was even conceived.

The flip side to this argument is, of course that if Alistair already does exist and was born before Rowan died, then Maric would know about him when he's presented with Fiona's child in The Calling.  That scene is written from Maric's point-of-view and so you'd think that when Fiona's child is revealed to him, Maric would immediately think of his other illegitimate son, fostered with Eamon at Redcliffe, even if he didn't say anything to Duncan or Fiona...

As far as I see it, there are going to be inconsistencies whichever way this turns out...

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Dang it, I think Fiona gives her amulet to Maric when they part after their battle in the deep roads, I think this happened somewhere in the Korcari Wilds when they came out of the Deep Roads through the mysterious tunnels, and Maric must have passed it along to Arl Eamon with the baby. Yes, the amulet glowed, I do remember reading that. I do remember that Fiona as badly injured and she was sent to Weisshaupt for the grey warden mages to help cure her. Had something to do with the Architect and that Enchanter' brooches on how she was poisoned.  I remember Fiona gave her amulet to someone.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 15 mars 2010 - 03:54 .