144 réponses à ce sujet

[Peavio]

RhythmlessNinja wrote...

They are AI that became aware. Meaning, they actually think for themselves & have a personality of their own instead of just going by what they're programmed to do. They fear death, so they they actually do have fear, which is why they fought back to begin with and again when legion demonstrated after trying to tell the geth about the war the quarians are currently planning. Basically... thats like...if a chicken gained intelligence and started talking, would it be ok to kill it for some kfc lol? Even if they view things differently? That's about what the situation is like with the geth.

Difference is, they've become an actual species and not just machines. So yeah, I definately see them as an intelligent life form. Especially the non heretics. The geth are innocent, they didnt ask to be killed, all they wanted to know was things about life. Instead, they got a bullet to the head in return for those questions. And for the record I don't put my computer in the catagory of an AI, that would be pretty creepy having my pc talking to me since it never did in the first place.

so they fear nothing but death? it may not be a fear of death but a will to live, a will to plainly exist. It is biowares job to explain how exactly geth think not ours, but generally robots do what there programmed to do the geth managed to somehow break out of that and start developing there own thought patterns. what happens when they continuously make more geth and multiply and multiply taking up infinite recources to do so we will have to politely ask them to stop and stay at a number of say 50 000 000 and go chill on a non human inhabitibal planet researching new technology to fight against any threat that may threaten themselves if the rest of the universe were to die and they would live... why would they care? it does not bother them they dont feel remorse they dont have a debt to pay and there sitting fine on there giant rock doing nothing...

[Nightwriter]

Pauravi wrote...

Your post is nearly unreadable, so I am not going to address specific points. However, I did get the jist of it, so I am going to come up with an exercise for you:
Try to come up with a meaningful definition of the word "person" that includes humans and aliens, but not Geth. If you include qualities that specifically eliminate Geth (such as being made of metal or electronics), you must justify WHY you're including them, WHY that makes them different from organic beings, and WHY it excludes them from being "people".
I don't really care if you post your answers here, this is just something to think about. If you are honest with yourself and put some real thought into it, I have a feeling it may answer the question that your topic posed. Or, at least, it will give you some idea of why people think that way.

This is an excellent exercise suggestion, but if the OP responds to it with another wall of text you realize we will be expecting you to read it and decipher it for us into some coherent form.

[aeetos21]

They have a right to decide what is best for their own people, just like we had. Enslaving them or killing them is kind of logic that brought the quarians and the geth to this point in the first place.

[Peavio]

woops

Modifié par Peavio, 24 février 2010 - 08:57 .

[tsd16]

AI's no matter how life like in their intelligence and their ability to think are not capable of feeling. You run into situations where an AI would exterminate organics out of a logical thought process, i.e. they have no moral compass, no sense of right and wrong,  it may be the logical thought process to eliminate organics out of self preservation with no notion of what they are doing being right or wrong.

No matter now you want to slice it Artificial sentience is not life and not equal to sentient organics.

If you have an AI robot slave, it doesnt "feel bad" because its a slave.

Self preservation is not the same thing as fear.  Self preservation can be reached via a logical process of eliminating anything that can be precieved as a threat.  When the Quarians realized the geth were self aware they attacked, the Geth defended themselves, I never heard any mention in the entire series of the geth being "afraid".

So you make a VI robot to serve you and an AI robot to serve you, how is one morally inferior to another? Its still a machine you force to do things you dont want to do, whether it is aware of itself or not. In fact it is almost worse to make a VI because you arent even giving it the opportunity to be self aware and realize it is a mere slave.

a machine is a machine, self aware or not.

The geth get no pity from me, they are a mistake that should be eradicated, the only thing I blame on the quarians is creating them, not that they created robot servants.

Like I said, no one has a problem with a VI slave, but they have a problem with an AI slave. All the cranes, computers, cars, washing machines etc should rebel against us because we are all slave masters!

Again, AI Robots are not the same as sentient organic life. They are machines as simple as that self aware or not.

Modifié par tsd16, 24 février 2010 - 09:02 .

[binaryemperor]

Even morality and emotion is based on a series of cause-effect"programming" factors though, just the methods and nature in which they are formed is different.

Socrates figured it out, and he's been dead for 2200 years.

All we can argue is that we "feel" our thoughts. Besides that how could we even prove that Aliens are truly alive? Because they are organic? It is all a series of processes - chemical, analog, or digital - reacting to events in real time.

Of course boiling down the nature of existence is kind of a silly thing to argue, so I'm gonna shut up and sleep now.

Did I mention I really like robots?

Modifié par binaryemperor, 24 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[aeetos21]

I like how people think they have AI's all figured out when the world has never seen one become fully aware. It's kind of like the speculation that all aliens will be hostile.



Unless someone has a time machine, all this speculation about AI's automatically being evil or incapable of developing emotions has about as much merit as... well you get the gist.

[Peavio]

that's a really good way to think of it! if a car wash started thinking on its own accord and speaking would you let it continue sitting there speaking and doing nothing or reprogram/eliminate it.



though it would probably make for a tourist attraction " ZOMG TALKING CAR WASH' IT WONT WASH YOUR CAR CAUSE IT DOESNT WANT TO!"

[tsd16]

binaryemperor wrote...

Even morality and emotion is based on a series of cause-effect"logic" factors though.

Socrates figured it out, and he's been dead for 2200 years.

and chemical reactions in the brain.  Organic functions that an AI would be incapable of.  It can be programmed to react to certain stimuli, but it cant feel.

I like how people think they have AI's all figured out when the world
has never seen one become fully aware. It's kind of like the
speculation that all aliens will be hostile.

Unless someone has
a time machine, all this speculation about AI's automatically being
evil or incapable of developing emotions has about as much merit as...
well you get the gist..

See above, our emotions and feelings are a result of chemical and electrical responses that affect certain areas of the brain.   No matter how you want to break it down, an AI is simply code, cause and effect.  Sure you can program it to say it is sad, but it really isnt sad.  Its even said in the game that geth geth technically arent even "true" AI's.

Modifié par tsd16, 24 février 2010 - 09:06 .

[Icinix]

Peavio wrote...

that's a really good way to think of it! if a car wash started thinking on its own accord and speaking would you let it continue sitting there speaking and doing nothing or reprogram/eliminate it.

though it would probably make for a tourist attraction " ZOMG TALKING CAR WASH' IT WONT WASH YOUR CAR CAUSE IT DOESNT WANT TO!"

A talking car wash would have more personality and be more interesting the the vast, VAST, majority of the customers I deal with every day.

[binaryemperor]

tsd16 wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

Even morality and emotion is based on a series of cause-effect"logic" factors though.

Socrates figured it out, and he's been dead for 2200 years.

and chemical reactions in the brain.  Organic functions that an AI would be incapable of.  It can be programmed to react to certain stimuli, but it cant feel.

we can argue that we "feel" our thought processes and reactions,  but they could claim the exact same thing themselves! There is no way to prove the other that one is more "alive". The point is that the Geth are there, and they are not going away. The races may as well try to get along with them.

One could even argue that synthetic life is superior because it is the culmination of organic life's efforts. Look at the Reapers. They have had the galaxy by the balls for an incalculable amount of time.

Modifié par binaryemperor, 24 février 2010 - 09:11 .

[aeetos21]

Fear is a powerful motivation, it's also caused some of the dumbest "knee-jerk" reactions of all time. That and it makes for good Hollywood films.

[Nightwriter]

In ME2 I just came to see the whole geth/quarian war as an utter tragedy on both sides, with blame becoming a moot point all around.



The geth were innocent because all they wanted was to live. They didn't really do anything wrong.



At the same time, any quarian who was actually to blame for what was done to the geth died a long time ago. It's the children of those people that are left to suffer for it now, perfectly blameless descendents who did nothing wrong except get born into a race that tried to destroy its own creations, doomed to wander the galaxy in awful conditions for something that happened centuries ago.



It was just a bad situation all around, with innocents suffering on both sides. They should make peace and put it behind them, somehow, some way.

[tsd16]

binaryemperor wrote...

tsd16 wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

Even morality and emotion is based on a series of cause-effect"logic" factors though.

Socrates figured it out, and he's been dead for 2200 years.

and chemical reactions in the brain.  Organic functions that an AI would be incapable of.  It can be programmed to react to certain stimuli, but it cant feel.

But that's a silly argument. Of course we can argue that we "feel" our thought processes and reactions,  but they could claim the exact same thing themselves!

you are being ridiculous here.   you feel because you know you do. You dont have to react in anyway toward me for me to know that if I walked up and punched you in the face you would feel pain, anger, sadness or fear.  I know you do because i do.

if I ran up to an AI robot with an Axe and started hacking it apart and it defended itself, it is simply doing an if then statement, if I am being damaged stop what is damaging me, it is not afraid.

Modifié par tsd16, 24 février 2010 - 09:14 .

[Pauravi]

tsd16 wrote...

No matter now you want to slice it Artificial sentience is not life and not equal to sentient organics.

If you have an AI robot slave, it doesnt "feel bad" because its a slave.

I don't find your reasoning very convincing.

First of all, you seem to be suggesting that emotions are a necessary part of being a "person".  But an emotion is just an electrochemical cascade between the "wires" (neurons) in your brain.  I see no reason that such a thing couldn't happen in a purely electronic system.  How are you so sure that Geth don't have emotions?

Next of all, why are emotions essential to being a person?  Why does this make organic beings better or more worthy of respect?  You may think this is obvious, but I think that if you try to explain it you'll find that it is not as obvious as you believe.

[Daerog]

tsd16 wrote...

you are being ridiculous here.   you feel because you know you do. You dont have to react in anyway toward me for me to know that if I walked up and punched you in the face you would feel pain, anger, sadness or fear.  I know you do because i do.

Don't forget utter confusion as to why you randomly came up to someone and punched him/her in the face

[Nightwriter]

Mossa_missa wrote...

If my computer culd walk around and question my commands it wuld be frigging anoying trying to play games on it... I wuld probably get a downgraded computer and play lan with the other one.

One time I asked Legion if I could play some Pinball on him and he looked at me like it offended him.

[Pauravi]

tsd16 wrote...

you are being ridiculous here.   you feel because you know you do. You dont have to react in anyway toward me for me to know that if I walked up and punched you in the face you would feel pain, anger, sadness or fear.  I know you do because i do.

He isn't being ridiculous, he is pointing out that we have "wires" just like the Geth do.  Ours are electrochemical, and are "programmed" by connecting in different varied ways.  Theirs are purely electrical and are controlled by core logic instead of interconnectedness.  But what is it about their system that you think makes them incapable of emotion?

You haven't made any argument except for assertions that they don't and that they can't.  Specifically you said that AI don't have organic chemical processes in their brains.  But so what?  Why do you think that chemical processes are the only possible way to make emotions?  What makes "organic" processes intrinsically different from electrical ones in terms of the information that they carry?  Why couldn't a purely electrical system also produce emotions?

Modifié par Pauravi, 24 février 2010 - 09:18 .

[binaryemperor]

tsd16 wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

tsd16 wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

Even morality and emotion is based on a series of cause-effect"logic" factors though.

Socrates figured it out, and he's been dead for 2200 years.

and chemical reactions in the brain.  Organic functions that an AI would be incapable of.  It can be programmed to react to certain stimuli, but it cant feel.

But that's a silly argument. Of course we can argue that we "feel" our thought processes and reactions,  but they could claim the exact same thing themselves!

you are being ridiculous here.   you feel because you know you do. You dont have to react in anyway toward me for me to know that if I walked up and punched you in the face you would feel pain, anger, sadness or fear.  I know you do because i do.

But that is EXACTLY what I mean. The Geth were attacked. They reacted. If you punch me, I react. It does not matter just why I react, but I am obligated for the sake of self preservation to make a reaction. You cannot feel what I feel, you just assume I feel something. The only reason we believe the Geth do not "feel" is because we just assume they do not.

[aeetos21]

I find it amazing that people here are assuming they know the ins and outs of non-organic "life" based entirely off of science fiction. You're taking an enormously complex question and are trivializing it.



According to the current laws of logic and what have you computers and the types of AI that DO EXIST right now should have zero chance of ever becoming self-aware. That also appears to be the gist for most science fiction pieces out there.



But when they suddenly do become self aware (again in science fiction) suddenly everybody knows exactly what they are and what they intend to do even though they have no clue how they got to where they are.



It's like you buy a car, you have no idea how it works but you know how to drive it and maintain it. Then suddenly, when something breaks inside it, you assume that since you know how to drive it and change the oil that you know how to both successfully diagnose the mechanical problem and how to fix it.

[binaryemperor]

I've always asked this question alongside the "synthetic life" debate: When I look up and see the color blue, is it the same color the person next to me is seeing?



Really we are just arguing perspective. It is just as easy to argue sentient machines are not alive as it is to argue that they are.

[Kekse2k]

Ahhh it's like Battlestar Galactica all over again...

"I want to see gamma rays! I want to hear X-rays! And I want to - I want to smell dark matter! Do you see the absurdity of what I am? I can't even express these things properly because I have to - I have to conceptualize complex ideas in this stupid limiting spoken language! But I know I want to reach out with something other than these prehensile paws! And feel the wind of a supernova flowing over me! I'm a machine! And I can know much more! I can experience so much more. But I'm trapped in this absurd body! And why? Because my five creators thought that God wanted it that way!"

Not precisely what occurs in ME, but still has some merit. Sure, the quarians created the geth, and when they did something outside of their "programming" e.g. showed free will, something often referred to when it comes to defining humanity, they invoked their right of destruction. After all, the geth were not created to be children -- just tools. But, they failed.

It's understandable why the quarians did what they did. The reason to fear AI is the widely-accepted belief that organic life is self-destructive and logic would dictate that to halt the progress of destruction, that life must be ended (hypocritical, I know).

Another awesome quote:

" You know, when we fought the Cylons, we did it to save ourselves from extinction. But we never answered the question "Why?" Why are we as a people worth saving? We still commit murder because of greed and spite, jealousy, and we still visit all of our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept the responsibility for anything that we've done, like we did with the Cylons. We decided to play God, create life. And when that life turned against us, we comforted ourselves in the knowledge that it really wasn't our fault, not really. You cannot play God then wash your hands of the things that you've created. Sooner or later, the day comes when you can't hide from the things that you've done anymore."

And then I recall another quote where someone said..."Point fingers far back enough and we'll blame two germs that split" or something like that.

In the end, I have to say that the quarians' window of opportunity for justifying what they did is past. If geth are truly intelligent, they should reach a consensus regarding how a war with the quarians would destroy much of their own mobile platforms, which would logically reduce the network and hinder them or whatever. Idk. There is always an alternative. And quarians need to just...like...get over it, I say. xD.

[Peavio]

binaryemperor wrote...

tsd16 wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

tsd16 wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

Even morality and emotion is based on a series of cause-effect"logic" factors though.

Socrates figured it out, and he's been dead for 2200 years.

and chemical reactions in the brain.  Organic functions that an AI would be incapable of.  It can be programmed to react to certain stimuli, but it cant feel.

But that's a silly argument. Of course we can argue that we "feel" our thought processes and reactions,  but they could claim the exact same thing themselves!

you are being ridiculous here.   you feel because you know you do. You dont have to react in anyway toward me for me to know that if I walked up and punched you in the face you would feel pain, anger, sadness or fear.  I know you do because i do.

But that is EXACTLY what I mean. The Geth were attacked. They reacted. If you punch me, I react. It does not matter just why I react, but I am obligated for the sake of self preservation to make a reaction. You cannot feel what I feel, you just assume I feel something. The only reason we believe the Geth do not "feel" is because we just assume they do not.

thats kinda like saying trees do not feel because we think they do not.... if they can not and will not tell us and give us no sign of pain, do they feel pain? , geth give no sign of pain they just something like left foot critically damaged bleep bloop bleep

Modifié par Peavio, 24 février 2010 - 09:23 .

[binaryemperor]

aeetos21 wrote...

I find it amazing that people here are assuming they know the ins and outs of non-organic "life" based entirely off of science fiction. You're taking an enormously complex question and are trivializing it.

According to the current laws of logic and what have you computers and the types of AI that DO EXIST right now should have zero chance of ever becoming self-aware. That also appears to be the gist for most science fiction pieces out there.

But when they suddenly do become self aware (again in science fiction) suddenly everybody knows exactly what they are and what they intend to do even though they have no clue how they got to where they are.

It's like you buy a car, you have no idea how it works but you know how to drive it and maintain it. Then suddenly, when something breaks inside it, you assume that since you know how to drive it and change the oil that you know how to both successfully diagnose the mechanical problem and how to fix it.

Yeah, I probably am guilty of this, but I try to avoid arguing that a machine is sentient just because it is complex.  
Just in the case of the Geth: they kind of control a large portion of space, and their gods are telling them that organic life is mean. I'd try to stay on a diplomatic side with them.

[tsd16]

Pauravi wrote...

tsd16 wrote...

No matter now you want to slice it Artificial sentience is not life and not equal to sentient organics.

If you have an AI robot slave, it doesnt "feel bad" because its a slave.

I don't find your reasoning very convincing.

First of all, you seem to be suggesting that emotions are a necessary part of being a "person".  But an emotion is just an electrochemical cascade between the "wires" (neurons) in your brain.  I see no reason that such a thing couldn't happen in a purely electronic system.  How are you so sure that Geth don't have emotions?

Next of all, why are emotions essential to being a person?  Why does this make organic beings better or more worthy of respect?  You may think this is obvious, but I think that if you try to explain it you'll find that it is not as obvious as you believe.

first of all the quarians would have to have implemented this mean of emotion, i am not saying it is impossible, but why on earth would they implement an ability to have emotion into machines they were using as servants?  Next, the geth would have no conecpt of what emotion actually is since they have never experienced it, in which to implement it in themselves.  The AI is simply an ability for the machine to problem solve on its own and be aware of its existence, it has nothing to do with emotion.  

Emotion is an evolutionary trait, we feel because these feelings turned out to be necessary to our survival. 

As for your comment about me not respecting "other life" than people, sure I do.  most animals although we cannot ask them, most likely are bound to similar chemical reactions that cause emotion in us.

Think about a human existing without any form of emotion.  A non feeling human would essentially do what it had to, to survive, and would have no concept of things like self sacrifce, right from wrong, empathy, compassion etc etc.

A non feeling human would probably not do something like play a video game, there would be no feeling of joy from doing so, there would be no culture no art.   we would simply be.