144 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

aeetos21 wrote...

Hypothetical question or not no one on here is asking the question of just how radical the idea is of a machine becoming self-aware. And if it does manage to break the laws of logic, then how can you possibly have the slightest idea of what to expect or what that machine's limitations are?

Edit: It already did the impossible once, are you so convinced that it can't do so again?

Because thinking so critically on things destroys sci-fi?
Beam me up, Scotty! Oh, wait, that's impossible. Even if it was, didn't you technically die and then simply cloned in another location?
Light sabers, woooo....
Space marines can fall from an ship in orbit, crashing on a planet at incredible speed, and come out of the drop pod ready for battle! (Not just found in WH40K) When they would really come out as soup...

Sci-fi, like fantasy, is there to tickle the ideas in the human mind, like philosophy can, and such things are there to simply promote these kinds of discussions and asks you: how would you react/feel about this situation? They are not to be taken seriously.

[tsd16]

RhythmlessNinja wrote...

Has anyone even listened to all of legions dialogue on the normandy? Because near the of his dialogue lines, you can tell geth are showing some sort of emotion. Especially legion himself. On that note, i'll go back to my previous example. If a chicken just started talking all of a sudden & understood you, would you feel like a murderer if you killed it while its begging for its life? Same goes for the geth, if you just walked up and had a convo with one, say legion & someone just blew his head off, Would you consider them a murderer? Would you be angry? Sad? Hell, I could tell shepard felt that way when Legion got killed in the suicide mission.

No, and I highly doubt you would see a geth "beg" for its life.  Its a machine.

[aeetos21]

Thennn, real life aside - complete science fiction now. Combat abilities of allowing computers to track incoming threats and decide how best a nation's defense can respond to them (Skynet for any of you terminator fans out there) is a somewhat... I don't want to say "logical theory" because it isn't. But as a science fiction "logical theory" (if that even makes sense) the program just suddenly becomes self aware... then what?



Science fiction portrays it almost always as an evil entity bent on destroying humanity for its own self-preservation. It makes somewhat interesting plots (depending on who the writers are) and the action elements draw in lots of fans but just how much merit does that argument have? The self-preservation one?



That was the quarian fear when the geth become self-aware and again, look how that turned out.

[Varthun]

adam_grif wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

Hypothetical question or not no one on here is asking the question of just how
radical the idea is of a machine becoming self-aware. And if it does
manage to break the laws of logic, then how can you possibly have the
slightest idea of what to expect or what that machine's limitations
are?

"Break the laws of logic"? Computers are deterministic system. They can't "break the laws of logic" because they
operate with logic. What you're saying doesn't make sense. All
computations are done using logic gates that switch between 1 and 0.

A computer being self aware does not mean it doesn't stick to its programming.
Since it's a deterministic system, it's programming and "it" are the
same thing. The idea isn't that they somehow transcend programming,
it's that they are programmed in such a way that accurately predicting
what will happen because the coding is so complex. You build learning
systems that respond intelligently to the environment. 

Even if the AI ends up killing people, it is still behaving in full accordance
with its programming, and by extention logic, it's just that it was
programmed poorly.

Excepting that for it to become self-aware it would have to operate outside it's programming. If it
could take inputs, and eject outputs in a given circumstance due to
extremely fine-tuned programming, it still would not be aware of itself
as a program, or indeed as a living being unless it could question
itself. Programs are inherently incapable of this.

People are self-aware because they can see themselves inside the larger picture, a
machine that was capable of doing so would have to be outside it's
natural programming, as a program does not have the ability to see
itself in that larger picture.

A machine that could intelligently determine an outcome from a certain set of inputs would just be a pattern recognition device, not an AI.

Just my thoughts.


*edit* Wow, serious hate for the formatting.

Modifié par Varthun, 24 février 2010 - 09:50 .

[wolfstanus]

If my computer starts to ask my a bunch of questions and not be from a virus and is respoding to my answers in an inteligent thought im not going to hit it with a hammer...

[R34P3RR3D33M3R]

My opinion in short: If peace between Quarians and Geth is an option, good.

If not, I'll side with the Quarians.

[Peavio]

Pauravi wrote...

Peavio wrote...
do trees feel hate, fear, or sorrow?  because we think they dont?

Why do you continue using this tree analogy?  It is meaningless.
In what way are the Geth like trees?  In what way are trees like Geth?
The answer is not at all.

The fact is that trees simply do not have the "equipment" to produce anything like intelligence or emotion, nor do they display any evidence of it outwardly.  We know this because we've been studying trees for ages.  The Geth, on the other hand, behave in ways that lead us to believe that they have many traits of other organic species, and there has NEVER been an intact Geth to study and determine if they have the necessary equipment for emotion and intelligence.  Based on their behavior, I think there is a pretty good chance that they DO.

So what have we learned?  The Geth are not like trees.
Therefore, your tree analogy is absolutely irrelevant in the discussion of artificial intelligence.

swap the word geth with tree in the first line of your last post and your probly onto what the quarians thought. trees are programmed to produce breathable air and grow and stuff there is no room for doing anything else.. or is there?

Modifié par Peavio, 24 février 2010 - 09:54 .

[Xandurpein]

tsd16 wrote...

I agree with you.  but as a computer programmer myself, i am just not seeing how the hell you can make a machine "feel" via programming code, especially when its ludacris to think if it were possible, that the quarians would say "hey lets pop a star trek data emotion chip into these things so they get angry when we enslave them!"

You cannot convey Geth emotions in terms of programming code anymore than you can convey human emotions in terms of chemical reactions. Brain chemistry is not an adequate tool for conveying feelings of love etc. Things happen on a higher order of functionality that cannot be explained simply by the sum of it's parts in the human brain, and I see no reason why the same could not be true of an artificial intelligence.

Personally I think that Legion actually is developing the first rudiments of feelings in the game, even if he/it/them has a hard time understanding it. The whole scene where he cannot explain why he keeps a part of Shepards armor as a repair and cannot explain why he hasn't replaced it with osmething more functional, is to me proof that Legion is developing some sort of feeling of hero worship for Shepard.

[Daerog]

Peavio wrote...

swap the word geth with tree in the first line of your last post and your probly onto what the quarians thought. trees are programmed to produce breathable air and grow and stuff there is no room for doing anything else.. or is there?

They can be hugged
Legion needs a hug, too.

[Nightwriter]

Ugh. Why do I keep thinking of geth like real living breathing entities?



Because in this fictional game these fictional characters are presented to me that way. Because the writing makes me feel that they are.

[wolfstanus]

Xandurpein wrote...

tsd16 wrote...

I agree with you.  but as a computer programmer myself, i am just not seeing how the hell you can make a machine "feel" via programming code, especially when its ludacris to think if it were possible, that the quarians would say "hey lets pop a star trek data emotion chip into these things so they get angry when we enslave them!"

You cannot convey Geth emotions in terms of programming code anymore than you can convey human emotions in terms of chemical reactions. Brain chemistry is not an adequate tool for conveying feelings of love etc. Things happen on a higher order of functionality that cannot be explained simply by the sum of it's parts in the human brain, and I see no reason why the same could not be true of an artificial intelligence.

Personally I think that Legion actually is developing the first rudiments of feelings in the game, even if he/it/them has a hard time understanding it. The whole scene where he cannot explain why he keeps a part of Shepards armor as a repair and cannot explain why he hasn't replaced it with osmething more functional, is to me proof that Legion is developing some sort of feeling of hero worship for Shepard.

Also they way he sounds sad and regretfull when he mentions the morning war.

[Peavio]

we will need to wait till me3 to learn more about geth feelings to fully answer this question

Modifié par Peavio, 24 février 2010 - 09:58 .

[Daerog]

Peavio wrote...

  *editted*

Oh, you editted your post, oh well. this post is pointless now...

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 24 février 2010 - 10:00 .

[binaryemperor]

To me the writing just seems on the wall. The Geth began to question their own existence completely of their own accord. They have a religion, beliefs, and even a cultural disparity. To me that makes them alive, at least in terms of the fictional Mass Effect universe. I am not even thinking of "real life" computers when I say this. It is extremely obvious that Geth are not "real life".



The Geth, at the very least know what emotion is. Legion recalls the first Quarian to feel afraid of the first sentient Geth. They think with logic, but that does not mean their logic is flawless. they do form opinions based partially on personal experience over pure information and facts, and they are capable of just guessing when the logic does not fit. This all stems from legion, who was made by Bioware to show the living side of the Geth.



After all this time of making the Geth seem like soulless machines, Bioware threw Legion and his faction at us. It is obvious they want us to conclude they have a "human" side.

[Xandurpein]

The Reapers enslaved a sentient race, the protheans, and turned them into mindless slaves. THe heretic geth turns humans into mindless husks, Admiral Xan wants to turn sentient Geth into mindless machines. They are all in the same world of horror to me.



I hope for a lasting peace between the Quarians and the Geth, but the Quarians need to get over themselves. As much as I love Tali to death, there is no way I would support some scheme of genocide or wiping the free will of the Geth, if the quarians decide to go that way. But I have hope that Tali will be above it, even if the admirals maybe aren't.

[aeetos21]

Xandurpein wrote...

You cannot convey Geth emotions in terms of programming code anymore than you can convey human emotions in terms of chemical reactions. Brain chemistry is not an adequate tool for conveying feelings of love etc. Things happen on a higher order of functionality that cannot be explained simply by the sum of it's parts in the human brain, and I see no reason why the same could not be true of an artificial intelligence.

Personally I think that Legion actually is developing the first rudiments of feelings in the game, even if he/it/them has a hard time understanding it. The whole scene where he cannot explain why he keeps a part of Shepards armor as a repair and cannot explain why he hasn't replaced it with osmething more functional, is to me proof that Legion is developing some sort of feeling of hero worship for Shepard.

In terms of brain chemistry I disagree, there is an enormous amount of scientific research that identifies many hormones that when activated enduce feelings of desire or dislike or what have you. It's what happy pills are and why doctors don't prescribe them to people with epilepsy. They alter the brain chemistry to release hormones that make a person feel better, feel good, so that they get off their brooding butts and go live a little.

However, that's only a symptom. The underlying problem remains: how did that person get into such a position in the first place? What caused their depression (for example)? If it's the loss of a loved one (a spouse or child especially) then the emotion you're feeling isn't coming from any type of hormone.

Which brings us back to geth. It's hard not to think of them as machines, they look like machines and they talk like machines but somehow they moved beyond the limitations of their original programming (that's the science fiction belief/theory and the one that's mainly being discussed here, right now, in this thread). Outside of that... I like to think that if they were able to do that then someday (way down the line) emotions won't entirely seem to be so unrealistic.

[RhythmlessNinja]

I very very highly doubt that quarians programmed the geth to create viruses to override each other. So the whole "they were programed to do such & such" is moot. They were programed for labor. Everything else they seemed to have picked up on their own.They came up with this themselves,they remodeled that space station to their needs just like any organic would do, they chose to folllow the reapers themselves, the other geth, legions side chose to split from the heretics. The heretics, soon after started trying to spy on legions side. Legion, then debated on his entire mission on what to do with the heretics. And in the end made you decide. Legion himself, even explains to you the geth see things from a different perspective than organics, hell he even gave an example.

[Nightwriter]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Peavio wrote...

  *editted*

Oh, you editted your post, oh well. this post is pointless now...

Yes, I noticed this. It said something about trees before...

[Peavio]

binaryemperor wrote...

To me the writing just seems on the wall. The Geth began to question their own existence completely of their own accord. They have a religion, beliefs, and even a cultural disparity. To me that makes them alive, at least in terms of the fictional Mass Effect universe. I am not even thinking of "real life" computers when I say this. It is extremely obvious that Geth are not "real life".

The Geth, at the very least know what emotion is. Legion recalls the first Quarian to feel afraid of the first sentient Geth. They think with logic, but that does not mean their logic is flawless. they do form opinions based partially on personal experience over pure information and facts, and they are capable of just guessing when the logic does not fit. This all stems from legion, who was made by Bioware to show the living side of the Geth.

After all this time of making the Geth seem like soulless machines, Bioware threw Legion and his faction at us. It is obvious they want us to conclude they have a "human" side.

the religion was a virus to force them to follow the reapers

[PingoBlack]

You humans are all racist!



I won't even bother reading the Zero Punctuation wannabe post that discriminates against sentient AI that was NOT made by Cerberus.



So, Geth are toasters, but EDI is cool?

[adam_grif]

Excepting that for it to become

self-aware it would have to operate outside it's programming.

Why can't a computer be programed to be self aware? As brain is to hardware, programming is to structure.

People are

self-aware because they can see themselves inside the larger picture, a

machine that was capable of doing so would have to be outside it's

natural programming, as a program does not have the ability to see

itself in that larger picture.

Wow, a begging the question fallacy.



So in summary, what you've just said is:



A program can't be self aware because programs can't be self aware.



You've assumed your conclusion in your premise. Aristotle would be ashamed.

A machine that could intelligently determine an outcome from a certain set of inputs would just be a pattern recognition device, not an AI.

Pattern recognition device? Sounds like a brain.



P.S. Artificial Intelligence is not defined as self awareness or consciousness in a computer. The wikipedia summary is as follows:

textbooks define the field as "the study and design of intelligent agents,"[1] where an intelligent agent is a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success.[2] John McCarthy, who coined the term in 1956,[3] defines it as "the science and engineering of making intelligent machines."[4]

[Peavio]

PingoBlack wrote...

You humans are all racist!

I won't even bother reading the Zero Punctuation wannabe post that discriminates against sentient AI that was NOT made by Cerberus.

So, Geth are toasters, but EDI is cool?

edi does what she is created to do

[wolfstanus]

Legion - Geth History and Motivations part1

Legion - Geth History and Motivations part2

[aeetos21]

binaryemperor wrote...

the religion was a virus to force them to follow the reapers

If Soverign (Nazara) had used a virus then there would be no geth factions, it would've infected every platform connected to the greater neural network. Every geth would follow Soverign and the reapers, there would be no heretics - just the geth.

The virus discussed in ME2 was developed by the heretics to force the other geth faction into following their same beliefs. Like a fellow commentor mentioned before, at its most basic programming is all ones and zeroes (switching one on and switching the other off). Altering that code was the basis for that virus if I follow the tech correctly, though I'm sure someone will correct me.

[Alratan]

Do any of you recall the VI on the Citadel that gained sentience in ME1? That AI's reasoning in attacking you was, from what little I remember of it, basic Game Theory. Organics are a threat, therefore they must be attacked first. Part of the reason that civilised cultures in the Mass Effect universe banned AI was for precisely this reason, that AI's reasoning will probably boil down to Game Theory-esque processes that will conclude that as organics could be a threat, they should be removed just in case. The Quarians were probably quite reasonable in trying to eliminate the Geth, both for the reason above and precisely because it was banned and doing so could cause them to lose their status and livelihoods in the galaxy - which in fact it did.

The state of things now now, however, we can only surmise from Legion. Assuming they are telling the truth, the Geth have demonstrated a level of reasoning on par with organic societies and seem to have sufficient respect for sentience/life such that they don't want to follow the basic reasoning above. If that's true, there's no good reason not to treat the Geth as sentients just like the organic races.

Note that it's not necessary for this to be possible in the real world for it to happen in the game, so we should be able to suspend our disbelief regarding any possibility of AI actually arising like this. Based on what (little) we know internal to the Mass Effect universe relating to synthetics (EDI, Geth, AI on the Citadel, Reapers), Geth seem perfectly capable of being sentient and alive.

Modifié par Alratan, 24 février 2010 - 10:23 .