144 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

aeetos21 wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

the religion was a virus to force them to follow the reapers

If Soverign (Nazara) had used a virus then there would be no geth factions, it would've infected every platform connected to the greater neural network. Every geth would follow Soverign and the reapers, there would be no heretics - just the geth.

The virus discussed in ME2 was developed by the heretics to force the other geth faction into following their same beliefs. Like a fellow commentor mentioned before, at its most basic programming is all ones and zeroes (switching one on and switching the other off). Altering that code was the basis for that virus if I follow the tech correctly, though I'm sure someone will correct me.

Ya, also the geth weren't forced to follow the reapers. It was the choice of the heretics to follow, and the choice of the geth to not follow. Indoctrination apparently doesn't work on non-organics.

[adam_grif]

Like a fellow commentor mentioned before, at its most basic programming is all ones and zeroes (switching one on and switching the other off). Altering that code was the basis for that virus if I follow the tech correctly, though I'm sure someone will correct me.

It works like all computer viruses do, by somehow altering the code that will be executed in its normal operation.

[Jebel Krong]

aeetos21 wrote...

binaryemperor wrote...

the religion was a virus to force them to follow the reapers

If Soverign (Nazara) had used a virus then there would be no geth factions, it would've infected every platform connected to the greater neural network. Every geth would follow Soverign and the reapers, there would be no heretics - just the geth.

The virus discussed in ME2 was developed by the heretics to force the other geth faction into following their same beliefs. Like a fellow commentor mentioned before, at its most basic programming is all ones and zeroes (switching one on and switching the other off). Altering that code was the basis for that virus if I follow the tech correctly, though I'm sure someone will correct me.

not necessarily. the more geth are linked, the smarter they are (in simplification). if Sovereign approached an isolated group and used coercion and some type of AI behavioural influence/virus on them that could have been the catalyst for the geth separatists. the fact that they were more isolated would have been their weakness. the majority of the geth could have been much mroe resilient because - connected - they had a much greater intellect/protection from the reaper's influence.

once they complete their "heaven" or dyson-sphere project, all the geth would be linked into a permanent consensus. one assumes legion would rejoin them or perhaps mobile platforms would still be needed on occasion for security.

[wolfstanus]

If you listen to this video at 5:32-5:54 you will hear emotion in Legions voice. If geth do not have emotion then why does his tone change that way?

Modifié par wolfstanus, 24 février 2010 - 10:33 .

[Big I]

The anti-Geth arguments seem to boil down to either "AI are too different from us to qualify as 'life'", or "AI are too different from us to be trusted, and thus should be destroyed."



In Mass Effect terms, people who believe either argument should therefore have no problems with qualifying vorcha, krogan, and rachni as "non-persons" who should be exploited by the rest of the galaxy, as they are significantly different from all other forms of life and have a history of violence and fast population growth. The vorcha are basically all masochists who view the giving and receiving of pain as normal social interaction; after they nuked themselves, the krogan evolved into berserkers capable of involuntary violent outbursts (the blood rage), and who base respect upon how predatory someone else is; and the rachni have a hive consciousness completely alien to individuals.



In general terms, if you believe either argument, it would seem you are philosophically opposed to peaceful relations with any significantly alien species we may or may not encounter/create in the future. Were you to come across a species that lacked human emotional analogues and possessed their own unique emotions (say, a deep, involuntary emotional connection to the colour blue), your logic would compel you to either dominate or destroy this species.



If, however, your arguments against AIs stem from their origins within unthinking, unalive machines, remember that the only form of intelligent life know to exist in the real world, humanity, began as unthinking animals, and those animals evolved ultimately from single celled organisms. Why is the rise of electro-chemical thought so much more special than the rise of it's digital equivalent?

[aeetos21]

This thread is starting to confuse me now, I blame myself since I questioned that one thing a few pages back. Anyway it seems like we're talking about two separate ethical dillemas here: the geth and science fiction and actual programming.

[adam_grif]

In general terms, if you believe either argument, it would seem you are philosophically opposed to peaceful relations with any significantly alien species we may or may not encounter/create in the future.

No, only the ones who are existential threats. You can sing about how the Krogan are just as in the right as we are, but in the end, letting the Krogan spread unchecked resulted in a bloody, protracted war. Krogan and Vorcha both have intense biological predispositions to behaviour that is simply unacceptable by our standards. Either we stop them from doing what they want to do, or they spill over and ruin us.



Therefore, do unto others before they have a chance to do unto you is a reasonable policy. We have no problems coexisting with Turians, Asari, Salarians, Hanar, Volus.....

[Peavio]

i asked a question and argued with non conclusive facts i find argument is the best way to get answers or consensus

[aeetos21]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

The anti-Geth arguments seem to boil down to either "AI are too different from us to qualify as 'life'", or "AI are too different from us to be trusted, and thus should be destroyed."

In Bioware terms it probably IS that simple, lol. But there are a few key differences. One is that people can understand the vorcha and krogan and rachni better since they are organic, they're animals, and governed by the same chemistry we as people are. Also they don't pose as serious a threat as the geth potentially do.

Legion could replay every conversation he had on the Normandy in the time it took for Shepard to ask a question. The power a potential enemy like that can have is very unnerving separating the geth altogether from the other races that don't appear humanoid in form.

[Pauravi]

aeetos21 wrote...

In terms of brain chemistry I disagree, there is an enormous amount of scientific research that identifies many hormones that when activated enduce feelings of desire or dislike or what have you. It's what happy pills are and why doctors don't prescribe them to people with epilepsy. They alter the brain chemistry to release hormones that make a person feel better, feel good, so that they get off their brooding butts and go live a little.

While you're correct about all of this, I believe that you were missing his point.

You can describe how the emotion happens with brain chemistry, but you cannot describe how the emotion feels with brain chemistry.  The subjective experience of being happy, or sad, or angry is not something that evident just by looking at how the system works.  Nothing about the chemical serotonin, or the receptors that it binds to, leads us to believe that it should make people happy.  We know that it can, but only because people describe it, because we can sympathize with the emotion ourselves, and because we can correlate the chemical with the feeling by looking at brain activity.  But the feeling of emotion itself happens on a higher order of complexity, it is not something that is evident from the physical functionality of the system.

[adam_grif]

If you listen to this video at 5:32-5:54 you will hear emotion in Legions voice. If geth do not have emotion then why does his tone change that way?

If chatbots aren't real people, then why do they act like they are?

[Peavio]

geth will think anger like this. he bang my wife + her being my wife = im supposed to be angry? there is no feeling it is logic, humans feel FEEEEL!

[wolfstanus]

adam_grif wrote...

If you listen to this video at 5:32-5:54 you will hear emotion in Legions voice. If geth do not have emotion then why does his tone change that way?

If chatbots aren't real people, then why do they act like they are?

My point was this. geth are starting to experince emotions... One of the main things that makes us who we are. If apes start talking are we going to kill them off like they do in ME with AI's? The ape thign is an example. Because it conflicts with people belifes and thus prove them wrong and killing apes will be the reaction.

Modifié par wolfstanus, 24 février 2010 - 10:49 .

[Daerog]

Funny, I don't remember this question being asked with the Reapers in mind. Are they in the same boat as the geth? Or are they different since they actually have genetic material and are not just mechanical programs or w/e?

[adam_grif]

But the feeling of emotion itself happens on a higher order of complexity, it is not something that is evident from the physical functionality of the system.

Subjectivity is a huge philosophical can of worms. It boils down to this:



Either subjective experience occurs because of what the brain does (process information) or because of some physical aspect of the brain (using neurons instead of circuits).

[aeetos21]

Pauravi wrote...

aeetos21 wrote...

In terms of brain chemistry I disagree, there is an enormous amount of scientific research that identifies many hormones that when activated enduce feelings of desire or dislike or what have you. It's what happy pills are and why doctors don't prescribe them to people with epilepsy. They alter the brain chemistry to release hormones that make a person feel better, feel good, so that they get off their brooding butts and go live a little.

While you're correct about all of this, I believe that you were missing his point.

You can describe how the emotion happens with brain chemistry, but you cannot describe how the emotion feels with brain chemistry.  The subjective experience of being happy, or sad, or angry is not something that evident just by looking at how the system works.  Nothing about the chemical serotonin, or the receptors that it binds to, leads us to believe that it should make people happy.  We know that it can, but only because people describe it, because we can sympathize with the emotion ourselves, and because we can correlate the chemical with the feeling by looking at brain activity.  But the feeling of emotion itself happens on a higher order of complexity, it is not something that is evident from the physical functionality of the system.

Either I'm completely misreading your comment or you are saying that people can choose not to enjoy the orgasm sex provides. Which... hmm, I need to think on that one since there are many different forms of sex (some very enjoyable and others just downright f*cked up and disgusting). But when you look at some drugs out there (ecstasy especially) and the affects it does to a person's body it's extremely difficult not to allow your higher psyche become inhibited and allow your body to take over.

[adam_grif]

My point was this. geth are starting to experince emotions...

See, that's what my post was about. Vocal inflections doesn't imply emotions. Acting emotional can be easily simulated, that does not imply that they actually experience them. This is the same as how an MSN chat bot can hold a conversation with you, even though it's just running through a programmed routine.

[wolfstanus]

adam_grif wrote...

My point was this. geth are starting to experince emotions...

See, that's what my post was about. Vocal inflections doesn't imply emotions. Acting emotional can be easily simulated, that does not imply that they actually experience them. This is the same as how an MSN chat bot can hold a conversation with you, even though it's just running through a programmed routine.

So is your brain... in truth every one has been programed... IE going to school you are tought by using data and other media.. Same with the Geth. They use media to learn. They have beeen around for 300 years. They have not had a chance to "evolve"

Modifié par wolfstanus, 24 février 2010 - 10:54 .

[Pauravi]

adam_grif wrote...

But the feeling of emotion itself happens on a higher order of complexity, it is not something that is evident from the physical functionality of the system.

Subjectivity is a huge philosophical can of worms. It boils down to this:

Either subjective experience occurs because of what the brain does (process information) or because of some physical aspect of the brain (using neurons instead of circuits).

I realize that.
I happen to think that subjective experience comes from the more abstract notion of information processing.  However, since nobody has a definitive answer to this, I think it is reasonable to say that subjective experiences such as emotions in an artificial intelligence is perfectly plausible in the context of a science fiction story.

[Peavio]

wolfstanus wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

If you listen to this video at 5:32-5:54 you will hear emotion in Legions voice. If geth do not have emotion then why does his tone change that way?

If chatbots aren't real people, then why do they act like they are?

My point was this. geth are starting to experince emotions... One of the main things that makes us who we are. If apes start talking are we going to kill them off like they do in ME with AI's?

we consider apes to be organic living breathing things, we consider robots... as robots... who do robot things. if we made a mechanical ape that can do 100% what an ape can do and nothing more, is he an ape or a robot? and will it matter if we take him from his enviroment after hes adapted.

[aeetos21]

I am reminded of one quote from the ME2 enemies trailer where we first meet Legion:



"Organics do not choose to feel fear, it is a function of your programming."



Or something like that. Humans fear the unknown, fear the potential danger, it's a natural response. However the geth do not appear to fear the unknown in the same way we do. They investigate first and if something is determined to be a threat, then they act. Like when Legion learned what Tali and the quarians were doing to the inactive geth.



I could be wrong but right now, fear isn't about to be an emotion the geth suddenly develop.

[wolfstanus]

Its all relative. People don't understand how it works or how it thinks etc. They say its not real or something to that affect and try to destroy it or something.

[wolfstanus]

Peavio wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

If you listen to this video at 5:32-5:54 you will hear emotion in Legions voice. If geth do not have emotion then why does his tone change that way?

If chatbots aren't real people, then why do they act like they are?

My point was this. geth are starting to experince emotions... One of the main things that makes us who we are. If apes start talking are we going to kill them off like they do in ME with AI's?

we consider apes to be organic living breathing things, we consider robots... as robots... who do robot things. if we made a mechanical ape that can do 100% what an ape can do and nothing more, is he an ape or a robot? and will it matter if we take him from his enviroment after hes adapted.

I should have clarified... there are alot of people who think animals do not have souls and thus are not true living creatures. My dad is one of them. Why? Because they don't think like we can.

Modifié par wolfstanus, 24 février 2010 - 11:01 .

[aeetos21]

Okay, this is a interesting thread but I'm exhausted. Another time ladies, gentlemen, and geth that aren't trying to intentionally infiltrate.

[Big I]

adam_grif wrote...

In general terms, if you believe either argument, it would seem you are philosophically opposed to peaceful relations with any significantly alien species we may or may not encounter/create in the future.

No, only the ones who are existential threats. You can sing about how the Krogan are just as in the right as we are, but in the end, letting the Krogan spread unchecked resulted in a bloody, protracted war. Krogan and Vorcha both have intense biological predispositions to behaviour that is simply unacceptable by our standards. Either we stop them from doing what they want to do, or they spill over and ruin us.

Therefore, do unto others before they have a chance to do unto you is a reasonable policy. We have no problems coexisting with Turians, Asari, Salarians, Hanar, Volus.....

The whole point of Modin's disapproval of uplifting the krogan, Wrex's disagreement with his father, and his plan to unify them is that the basis of the rebellions was not so much biological but social; krogan warlords were judged on the size of their armies, and so sought to increase those armies through population growth. Wrex shows that under the right leadership krogan are receptive to humanitarian initiaves; for instance, he does not allow Urdnot to attack civilians. If we would still be willing to launch the genophage against them over what are effectively political issues rather than biological ones, it raises interesting ethical issues.

As for the vorcha, no one has even tried to integrate them in a moral way; no vorcha education initiaves. Just cannon fodder for the Blood Pack or slave labor for Omega corporations. Biological difference does not explain everything