367 réponses à ce sujet

[Default137]

So, I posted this in the Tali thread, but I thought I should repost it here.


The chance of crewmembers not coming back is so amazingly slim...

The only reason Kaiden/Liara/Ashley got put aside was because we already
had to large a crew, and they have roles in ME3, thats it, its not
because "it arr to hurd to write gud", or anything stupid like that, but
because you are going on a suicide mission, and they need Liara for the
Shadow Broker plot, and Kaiden/Ashley to either get you back in the
Alliance, start the game, or be found on the mission they were doing,
prompting the start of the ME3 plot.

I mean, look at the facts, out of the four crewmembers that survived ME1, two are still with you,
are fully voiced out, with loyalty quests and everything, the other ones
are all set up as important in ME3, which means each of their
questlines is probably very heavy main quest stuff for ME3, so they
couldn't just have them killed off, as it would ruin ME3, unlike the
consequences of killing a minor character who only offers a sidequest.

And what purpose would all of ME2 have? The entire game's premise was that
of gathering an elite squad of the best to do an impossible mission,
while I could see a few leaving, most are going to stick around, I see
no reason why Miranda, Jacob, Legion, Tali, Mordin, or Garrus would
leave, especially since many of them basically quit their last job to stay with you, and Samara/Grunt/Thane would easily rejoin the crew when they learned
what was at stake ( MASSIVE BATTLE? )

I also want to point out its actually impossible to make a importable save to ME3 without at least two crewmembers, at the very end, you only have two ways to go if you plan on killing people, either its Shepard and the two people he goes to fight the Human Reaper with, or nobody, because Joker is not strong enough to bring Shepard onboard. Because of this, I get the feeling ME3 will just have us recruiting Kaiden/Ashley and Liara again, and it MIGHT include MAYBE one or two new crewmates, but chances are fairly slim on that, as that would make things crowded for the people who saved everyone ( which seems to be the majority )

Modifié par Default137, 24 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[notphrog]

I agree.

[Pauravi]

I'd agree. There are a lot of reasons besides the ones you stated.

Also, none of the arguments for getting rid of every character (which really just boiled down to "I think Bioware is lazy and will go cheap on the finale to the series") hold water.

[Icinix]

There is some greater logic or reasoning that bioware is holding back from us at this stage. But they seem to be snug in their knowledge they have it all worked out.

Your reasoning is probably the closest to that logic we've seen.

Besides which, I doubt you'll need to be doing loyalty missions anymore, so all they really need to do for characters is bring across the textures and models and record fresh dialogue.

[Jimbe2693]

Indeed
(Lorik Quinn style)

[The Capital Gaultier]

Here's the problem: whoever they let in your squad will need a lot of voice acting. Because of this, it's more likely that we'll see most of the ME1 squad. Wrex, Ashley and Kaidan could die so they'll probably make cameos. Since all of your ME2 crew except Joker and EDI could die, I don't think we'll see anyone from that crew in your squad, either.



That's still a lot of people and there will be a few new recruits, I'm sure.

[1490]

Never really considered the removal of Liara and Kaiden/Ashley from the squad BECAUSE they will be a big part of ME 3 and Bioware didn't want them to get killed off in the suicide mission. Interesting theory....wonder if it will be true?

[Epantiras]

Still, I wonder... why putting so much effort to create awesome squadmembers in Me2 if they won't have big roles in me3? But I see the point of those who remind us that the whole me2 team could die in the suicide mission.

[Marta Rio]

Default137 wrote...
I also want to point out its actually impossible to make a importable save to ME3 without at least two crewmembers, at the very end, you only have two ways to go if you plan on killing people, either its Shepard and the two people he goes to fight the Human Reaper with, or nobody, because Joker is not strong enough to bring Shepard onboard.

While I agree with you on the other points you made (and hope everyone comes back), the fact that you need two crewmembers to survive isn't necessarily evidence that they will return in ME3 as squadmates.  If you continue to play ME2 after the suicide mission, you need at least two survivors for completing remaining assignments, etc.  So the two squadmate thing might just be needed for ME2, not necessarily for ME3.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Marta Rio wrote...

Default137 wrote...
I also want to point out its actually impossible to make a importable save to ME3 without at least two crewmembers, at the very end, you only have two ways to go if you plan on killing people, either its Shepard and the two people he goes to fight the Human Reaper with, or nobody, because Joker is not strong enough to bring Shepard onboard.

While I agree with you on the other points you made (and hope everyone comes back), the fact that you need two crewmembers to survive isn't necessarily evidence that they will return in ME3 as squadmates.  If you continue to play ME2 after the suicide mission, you need at least two survivors for completing remaining assignments, etc.  So the two squadmate thing might just be needed for ME2, not necessarily for ME3.

Not to mention, it's not two specific squad members whom need to survive.  It's any two.  I seriously doubt Bioware would do voice acting for 9 squad members who wouldn't even be in the game.

[Icinix]

The Alliance has been working on a time travelling device. At the start of ME3 they'll give it to you to go back and save everyone of your squad mates.

And over the Shark we go.

[Default137]

Marta Rio wrote...

Default137 wrote...
I also want to point out its actually impossible to make a importable save to ME3 without at least two crewmembers, at the very end, you only have two ways to go if you plan on killing people, either its Shepard and the two people he goes to fight the Human Reaper with, or nobody, because Joker is not strong enough to bring Shepard onboard.

While I agree with you on the other points you made (and hope everyone comes back), the fact that you need two crewmembers to survive isn't necessarily evidence that they will return in ME3 as squadmates.  If you continue to play ME2 after the suicide mission, you need at least two survivors for completing remaining assignments, etc.  So the two squadmate thing might just be needed for ME2, not necessarily for ME3.

That was less pointed as evidence for that, and more as evidence that we wouldn't need new crewmembers in ME3, because no matter what, we have at least two crewmembers, and if you add in Liara and Kaiden/Ashley, thats four, which is close to what we finished ME1 with, so its not exactly a super small squad.

As for the three main ME1 characters, lets take a look at what happened to them in ME2.

Wrex is leading the Krogans if he survived, if not, the Krogans have a new leader, obviously he's not 100% needed for ME3, but it will probably help the main quest, and the fact he had to be replaced means choosing what happens to the Krogan will be a major plotpoint.

Ashley/Kaiden is on Horizon, and is then sent on a "secret mission" and we don't hear from them again, this could mean several things in ME3, either we start off trying to find them, we find them randomly, or they find us, and try to get us back in to the Alliance, or rejoin us depending on our choices. This could be the way ME3 starts honestly.

And Liara is working for the Shadow Broker, who will most likely play a MAJOR role in ME3, due to the fact he seems to know everything, and tried to sell us off, also all those lines by Liara about how she's going after him and blah blah blah basically foreshadows he will be coming back.

And why wouldn't Bioware do voice acting for nine people? They have to hire the actors anyway for their cameos, and Voice Acting is not by hour, its by project, if they hire them, its cost efficient for keep them for an entire game ( project ), and would actually be wasting money to just hire them for one or two lines. Sorry, but bringing them in for just a cameo actually makes less sense then you think it does.

Modifié par Default137, 24 février 2010 - 09:27 .

[The Capital Gaultier]

Default137 wrote...

And why wouldn't Bioware do voice acting for nine people? They have to hire the actors anyway for their cameos, and Voice Acting is not by hour, its by project, if they hire them, its cost efficient for keep them for an entire game ( project ), and would actually be wasting money to just hire them for one or two lines. Sorry, but bringing them in for just a cameo actually makes less sense then you think it does.

Because there's a serious difference in quantity of voice acting between nine people and two people.  Even if they got a contract where time worked did not affect the pay (yeah, right...), they'd still have issues with localization to contend with.

Face it, there'll be zero members from the ME2 squad as ME3 squad members (most likely).

[Frotality]

the problem is that while it would be so essential to the plot to include your old team...that would be really hard from a design standpoint.

thats why bioware set themselves up to fail; there is no middle ground for ME3, it will either require an immense amount of work and be epic, but if they skimp on the slightest detail of your decisions importing, it will be a huge disappointment because the plot will utterly fail without meaningful connection to the rest of the series, which requires that our choices carry over all in an appropriate and awesome capacity.

[wolfstanus]

I know most will make it in but... will some end up as background like the ones from ME1 did? Tali is an example. if she did not get exiled/killed she could end up on the admiralty board. Grunt could go to tuchanka (sp) and have some kind of strange Krogan Orgy... The Mordin could die of old age....

Modifié par wolfstanus, 24 février 2010 - 09:39 .

[Zulu_DFA]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Here's the problem: whoever they let in your squad will need a lot of voice acting. Because of this, it's more likely that we'll see most of the ME1 squad. Wrex, Ashley and Kaidan could die so they'll probably make cameos. Since all of your ME2 crew except Joker and EDI could die, I don't think we'll see anyone from that crew in your squad, either.

That's still a lot of people and there will be a few new recruits, I'm sure.

Why only 1/6 of people can see reason?
 
Making a character a "full-time" squadmate is very costly in terms of voice acting, as well as of disk space. And while they still can invest heavily in the alternate Virmire survivors as ME3 squadmates (since they alreadt have male and female protagonist), writing in 10 squadmate, every and all of whom may be absent from the ME2-to-ME3 import file is unsound. Cameos, definitely. For ME2, they made NPC cameos for about 8 characters, that could have died in ME1.

Making "expendables" recruitable would require alternate squadmates for those players that didn't bother with "No-one gets left behind achievement", and that means Costs x2. Not making alernate squadmates would mean: Hey, the rant about the "suicide mission" was just a joke, the real purpose of ME2 was to make you babysit your awesome squaddies!

However, there is a way to make expendables playable. It's what I would call a temporary basis. Make them join you for one or two plot based missions with an alternate squadmate of the same race, a former NPC maybe, in case that particular ME1/2 squadmate is dead. Upon completion of such mission the "temporary" squadmate stays at that location and Shepard departs with his "full-time" squad.

For example: On the Migrant Fleet Shepard meets Tali if she's alive and Kal'Reegar, if he is alive. If Tali is alive, she joins Shepard for one or two missions. If Tali is dead, Kal'Reegar joins. Or the player can choose one of them. If both are dead, the Quarian mission is unavailable, you've screwed too much, Quarians won't help to fight the Reapers, live with the consequences. After the completion of the mission Tali/Kal'Reegar says "good bye, it was nice to meet you, I'll send you an e-mail."

Still this approach makes game shorter / leaves plot holes for some players and requires content duplication. Yet, it's more cost-effective, and more plausible. Come on, people! If you're trying to save the Galaxy, you are bound to lose some friendls in the process. Otherwise you deserve a "wake-up and go to your McDonald's workplace" ending.

[FlintlockJazz]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Here's the problem: whoever they let in your squad will need a lot of voice acting. Because of this, it's more likely that we'll see most of the ME1 squad. Wrex, Ashley and Kaidan could die so they'll probably make cameos. Since all of your ME2 crew except Joker and EDI could die, I don't think we'll see anyone from that crew in your squad, either.

That's still a lot of people and there will be a few new recruits, I'm sure.

Not necessarily, you've already recruited them and done their loyalty missions, they just need the standard mission dialogue.  I strongly suspect they simply won't talk as much since you won't have to do the aforementioned recruiting and loyalty missions, except for LI talks, since you've already recruited them and now going to focus on the reaper plot. 

They already do multiple recordings for all the combinations of characters you can have with you during mission cutscenes even though you can only have two of them with you at a time, which means most playthroughs won't have the vast majority of different convos available for those scenes anyway, and that is probably where most of NPC squadmate conversations are going to be in ME3 anyway.

[xKerberos]

Default137 wrote...
Ashley/Kaiden is on Horizon, and is then sent on a "secret mission"

I thought the secret mission was Horizon? Unfortunately Anderson doesn't change that dialogue after you do Horizon.

[The Capital Gaultier]

That is true, FlintlockJazz - that is one way they could implement the "killable" ME2 and ME1 characters.

[R34P3RR3D33M3R]

xKerberos wrote...

Default137 wrote...
Ashley/Kaiden is on Horizon, and is then sent on a "secret mission"

I thought the secret mission was Horizon? Unfortunately Anderson doesn't change that dialogue after you do Horizon.

He does, you can tell him that you met Kaidan/Ashley on Horizon, and he'll apologize that he couldn't tell you because they don't trust Cerberus, or something.

[Massadonious1]

A brand new squad would completely turn me off from the game entirely.



It made sense in 2 (as all of them appeared in some way shape or form), but spending the entire 3rd act of a trilogy to introduce 9-12 new characters is just bad writing. I want to see how the story plays out, how I'm supposed to finally defeat the reaper armada, not introducing myself to Random Asari #3 and figuring out her life story, when there are two perfectly capable ones already established.

[Godeshus]

I don't want the same squadmates in ME3. It's part of a series, but it's still a new game. If I want to play the game with the characters in ME2, I'll just play ME2 again. I want new companions to explore.I want to find out about their histories, their personalities, etc. The game would be static if they brought back everyone from the previous titles.

[adam_grif]

If they include every ME2 character, as well as new ones, they will be forced to make characters into cookie cutter replacements for each other with no impact on the story based on which ones do and do not make it into your squad.



You know how Kaiden and Ash filled each other's shoes based on which one lived? Same deal. Characters that drastically impact the plot must not be able to die, and if they can, somebody else must be able to step in and perform an identical role with no actual plot change.



Since every character in ME2 could die in an ME3 import except for Shepard + 2 of the squad, then none of the squad members will play large roles in the plot.

[Marta Rio]

Default137 wrote...
And why wouldn't Bioware do voice acting for nine people? They have to hire the actors anyway for their cameos, and Voice Acting is not by hour, its by project, if they hire them, its cost efficient for keep them for an entire game (project ), and would actually be wasting money to just hire them for one or two lines. Sorry, but bringing them in for just a cameo actually makes less sense then you think it does.

Yeah I don't really see this as a big problem either.   Also, it seems logical that there won't be as much squadmate dialogue in ME3, since there most likely won't be loyalty quests this time around.  So if they make most of the squadmate dialogue interchangeable, with a few personal interaction scenes, it seems like overall there might even be less total squadmate dialogue in ME3 than in ME2, even if you add Liara, Kaiden, and Ashley.

Also, don't VAs generally get paid pretty poorly?  Maybe not Martin Sheen (or Seth Green or Tricia Helfer, etc.), but if they're willing to pay his rate, you'd think they would not have a problem paying the rest of the relatively unknown actors in the voice cast.

[FlintlockJazz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Here's the problem: whoever they let in your squad will need a lot of voice acting. Because of this, it's more likely that we'll see most of the ME1 squad. Wrex, Ashley and Kaidan could die so they'll probably make cameos. Since all of your ME2 crew except Joker and EDI could die, I don't think we'll see anyone from that crew in your squad, either.

That's still a lot of people and there will be a few new recruits, I'm sure.

Why only 1/6 of people can see reason?
 
Making a character a "full-time" squadmate is very costly in terms of voice acting, as well as of disk space. And while they still can invest heavily in the alternate Virmire survivors as ME3 squadmates (since they alreadt have male and female protagonist), writing in 10 squadmate, every and all of whom may be absent from the ME2-to-ME3 import file is unsound. Cameos, definitely. For ME2, they made NPC cameos for about 8 characters, that could have died in ME1.

Making "expendables" recruitable would require alternate squadmates for those players that didn't bother with "No-one gets left behind achievement", and that means Costs x2. Not making alernate squadmates would mean: Hey, the rant about the "suicide mission" was just a joke, the real purpose of ME2 was to make you babysit your awesome squaddies!

However, there is a way to make expendables playable. It's what I would call a temporary basis. Make them join you for one or two plot based missions with an alternate squadmate of the same race, a former NPC maybe, in case that particular ME1/2 squadmate is dead. Upon completion of such mission the "temporary" squadmate stays at that location and Shepard departs with his "full-time" squad.

For example: On the Migrant Fleet Shepard meets Tali if she's alive and Kal'Reegar, if he is alive. If Tali is alive, she joins Shepard for one or two missions. If Tali is dead, Kal'Reegar joins. Or the player can choose one of them. If both are dead, the Quarian mission is unavailable, you've screwed too much, Quarians won't help to fight the Reapers, live with the consequences. After the completion of the mission Tali/Kal'Reegar says "good bye, it was nice to meet you, I'll send you an e-mail."

Still this approach makes game shorter / leaves plot holes for some players and requires content duplication. Yet, it's more cost-effective, and more plausible. Come on, people! If you're trying to save the Galaxy, you are bound to lose some friendls in the process. Otherwise you deserve a "wake-up and go to your McDonald's workplace" ending.

As apparently one of the 5/6s that don't see reason, or lets pull some other random number of the air, 7/9s, you would not need to recruit them.  They will already be in your team, cutting the need for all the talk during the recruitment mission, and no loyalty mission, just standard NPC chatter.  That was kind of the point of ME2: to get the recruitment out of the way for the ultimate end adventure in ME3. 

Hell, your proposed method would actually cost more, since you not only need to voice all the new recruits but the old ones, set up missions for these cameos, code in all the new squaddies AND your standard squaddies (since you now need to voice for both eventualities of those who do have the character for those missions and those who lost them). 

If you feel that people who like their game to have the option of letting them get their characters through as opposed to forcing some artificial Virmir moment (I mean, come on, that moment in ME1 so not dramatic, it was contrived "Ooh you can only save one!  Now you get to spend ten minutes talking to bad guy despite the time limit you're on ooo!") because some character called it a suicide mission, then you deserve the Burger King ending.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 24 février 2010 - 09:57 .