367 réponses à ce sujet

[Alratan]

They also created different origins for Shepard along with different choices from ME1->ME2 which means there are significant sections of dialogue/text that are impossible to see in a single playthrough.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Really the more I think about it the more the "6 returning squaddies" idea seems the most plausible. It's just the right amount of potentially lost effort, and just enough new/returning from ME1 characters to ensure the Normandy both feels "filled out" and that everyone will get something.



There's also the obvious point that they could simply make the new game ME3 option say that those 6 survived.

[Zulu_DFA]

DirtyVagrant wrote...

I like the suggestion someone gave in a thread like this, maybe it has been discussed already, I dunno I really don't want to browse through 14 pages. But at the very least, they could have the characters be temporary party members in a quest of considerable importance. For example, you need to rally the Quarians against the Reapers and you can run into Tali. If she's dead in your playthrough, you get a Quarian with the same abilities just that there isn't as much dialogue with that character.
I have my fingers crossed that the ME2 squadmates come back in squad form, but it's all just guesswork for now. Bioware does listen to their fans, they've said they look at fan feedback and have shown they are willing to listen.

Indeed, this has been suggested, and I think it's the most cost-effective, as well as ... er... "fair" way to bring expendables into the game.

1. Their character development gets its conclusion.
2. After that there won't be an "I'm calibrating something, whydoncha go for it too?" setback.
3. Character development wouldn't suffer a "discontinuity complication" (even is survived, all charachers must could have been treated differently by Shepard, basically kindly/harshly but some also could have been romanced whic is the 3rd variable). It's practically impossible to write in the characters the recognition of all possible Shepard's previous attitudes towards them.
4. Characters are woven into the story, but it's not gamebraking if they are not there.
5. Players who have them killed don't get ripped off, unless they have all of them killed, which is really "below" canon of the "suicide mission".

On another note I wouldn't expect comebacks to onle and all love interests, because they have already toned down the significance of the romantic line (in the chapter that 90% about characters), and that would leave out Grunt/Wrex (and krogans have their fanbase for BioWare to cater to) and Legion (that is practilly bound to return as squadmate ahead of any other expendable).
Also I wouldn't outright eliminate Zaeed/Kasumi comeback . I know, I am biased on this, but it makes perfect sense from the businees point of view for BioWare to encourage their customers to take their DLC perks and incentives more seriously in the future.

[Zulu_DFA]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Q: How many people refrainedfrom buying ME2 because Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan were cameos?
A: None.

Q: How many people will refrain from buying ME3 because none of the expendables will be a full-time recruitable squadmate?
A: Not many.

Q: Does the shooter crowd give a crap about squadmates?
A: No.

Q: Would many people like to see a newly introduced squadmates, provided the story of the old ones is continued in the form of NPC?
A: Yes.

Q: Will keeping the squad from ME2, provided they all need substitutes in case they kicked it, be more cost effective in development then having them as NPCs with generic substitutes and the squad that doesn't need substitutes?
A: No.

Q: Should new players be welcome to purchase ME3?
A: New customers are always right.

Q: Will new customers appreciate if we keep the squad from ME2?
A: No.

Q:  Is BioWare in the habit of spitting in the faces of the majority of their fanbase?
A:  No. 

BioWare is not just going to screw over all their fans for the first time in their histroy just because some people wiped out half their squad in ME2.

I guarantee we will see Garrus, Tali, Miranda, and Jacob back as squadmates in ME3 at the minimum.  I'll put money on it.  If they're dead in your import, then they just won't show up for that character.  I have 7 different characters that have cleared ME2 now, each of them with varying choices, survivors, and love interests.  I fully expect to see each of those LI's back(possibly not Jack due to the mental degradation from her biotic implants).

The question is not whether we'll see them or not.
The question is: will we see them as "conventional" squadmates, or as NPCs, or BioWare comes up with something of a mix?

Conventional squadmate comeback:
1. Joins up at some point in the game.
2. Stays till the end.
3. Is detached from the main story line because of #4.
4. If killed in ME2, leaves a hole in the squad selection screen for the entire ME3.
5. Has the same lines regardless of Shepard's kindness/jerkishnes towards him/her in the previous game.
6. After running out of lines, keeps "calibrating" something till the end of the game (at best tells Shepard to go calibrate himself in 3-4 polite/funny ways like Mordin did).
7. Before running out of lines comes up with a single funny story and a lot of daddy issues / babysitting requests.
8. Dissappoints half the fanbase for various reasons, mentioned above or otherwise.

NPC / temporary squadmate.
1. Is met at some point in the game. Possibly joins up for 1-2 plot missions (as default squadmate, like on loyalty missions in ME2)
2. Upon completion of this part of the game stays where he/she belongs (This is the sad one, I know).
3. Is tightly involved with the main plot.
4. If killed in ME2, is substituted by a more bland character with less lines, plot mission is run with 2 full-time squadmates or is totally unavailable. Overall, less beneficial in-game outcome for Shepard as a penalty for loss of this character.
5. Has different lines/personalities dependent on Shepard's treatment of this character in the past. Clearly seen impact of "choices".
6. Never runs out of lines, because Shepard simply can't "push these talks" on this character.
7. Comeback is nearly epic (see #3), no silly "Shepard, I know you have a galaxy to save, but I need your help with something... Yes, you know it, it's my personal daddy issue!" requests.
8. Fanbase is pleased. All fanbases get equal quality treatment, noone feels ripped off.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 février 2010 - 03:20 .

[Nozybidaj]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Q:  Is BioWare in the habit of spitting in the faces of the majority of their fanbase?
A:  No. 

Uh....hello...... *waves hand as a Liara/Ash/Kaidan fan*

[Ghostano]

Alratan wrote...

They also created different origins for Shepard along with different choices from ME1->ME2 which means there are significant sections of dialogue/text that are impossible to see in a single playthrough.

 For me the only difference I see in orgins in ME2 is who you get a e-mail from and a couple things said on the news. I do not remeber any NPC talking to me or bringing it up in ME2. I could be wrong would not be the first and will not be the last time if so.

[Alratan]

The origins only affect ME1, whilst the choices made in ME1 affect ME2 dialogue options (such as killing/letting live a large plethora of NPCs). I was being lazy with my sentence construction, hence the ambiguity. My point was that Bioware already set a precedent of there being large amounts of dialogue be closed off to the player by earlier choices (let alone dialogue choices, which frequently result in different lines said by/to Shepard), so it is well within the realm of possibility for them to make dialogue for squad-members that might not even be alive in some playthroughs.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ghostano wrote...

Alratan wrote...

They also created different origins for Shepard along with different choices from ME1->ME2 which means there are significant sections of dialogue/text that are impossible to see in a single playthrough.

 For me the only difference I see in orgins in ME2 is who you get a e-mail from and a couple things said on the news. I do not remeber any NPC talking to me or bringing it up in ME2. I could be wrong would not be the first and will not be the last time if so.

Yeah, I wanted a continuation of background exclusive quest. Wanted for set free Kurt Weisman (easy 1 minute quest on the Purgatory). Other stoires could have had a continuation too, like TIM making a conference call uplink to Spacer Shepard's reitred Mom. And Talitha met somewhere on the Citadel for Colonist Shepard with an option to help her somehow, to get a job or something.

Also no reflection of Sole Survivor's history with Cerberus is a major flaw.

They didn't put in these simplest things related to the very Shepard's own character. What do you people expect from other characters' development, really?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 février 2010 - 01:58 .

[iNixiRir]

Nozybidaj wrote...
Uh....hello...... *waves hand as a Liara/Ash/Kaidan fan*

He was talking about the majority .

[Console Cowboy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


Also no reflection of Sole Survivor's history with Cerberus is a major flaw.

absolutely infuriating. if you're going to force me to work with these bastards at least let me tell them off about murdering my entire unit.

[Lvl20DM]

The idea of temporary squad-mates is a good one, actually. That would make the cameos more significant and memorable (and would really give a sense that they were wrapping up a trilogy).



I could see Miranda's father's organization playing a part in ME 3 at some point. If Miranda lived, she is involved with that mission. If she died, Orianna is involved. This could be a cameo, a temporary squad-mate, or something else. They could do these characters justice without making them squad-members. I was really impressed with the use of Wrex in ME 2, for example.

[redguppie]

How does making them temporary squadmates save bioware money? you would still be writing a great deal of dialog for every returning person plus all these new redshirts(because without backstory that is all they will ever be) you want to be on the team.

[Zulu_DFA]

redguppie wrote...

How does making them temporary squadmates save bioware money? you would still be writing a great deal of dialog for every returning person plus all these new redshirts(because without backstory that is all they will ever be) you want to be on the team.

OK, You have Garrus, Tali, Grunt, Jacob, Miranda, Liara, Kaidan in your Normandy's hold. What are you going to discuss with them? Weather on Palaven? How many children Tali is expecting to have by you? How many females Grunt have fertilised do far? What's better arcaheology or information business? How bad is Cerberus? How Oriana finished her high school? How bad was the final stand against the Collectors at the "hold-the-line" spot? That's about the best things to come up with.

On the contrary. If these characters are important storywise, their dialogue may be very meaningful, and have different lines and story impacts, depending on your past choices, made while interacting with these characters in ME1/2, during their loyalty missions and on the Normandy. Overall interaction with those characters in ME3 may be shorter, but more intense and satisfying.

[redguppie]

How much did you actually discuss with them during the previous 2 games? I don't recall an endless amount of dialog for every character regarding there entire past life in any of the games. Hell in 2 each character has about 6 or 7 lines and a polite way to tell you to ****** off the rest of the time, that still didn't detract from their development in the game. They could still have all those things that you mentioned without having to build a whole new team from scratch. Hell with your idea they are already putting in the money and time to make them a squadmate. All they would have to do is add a generic line or 2 for random missions and boom their golden.



What you seem to be saying is that they develop character specific missions for each of the past characters that furthers their development and allows you to progress the story, plus add a whole new lot for you to get to know and take on all these other missions that you have. And somewhere in the middle of rebuilding another team you also have to find the time to deal with the reapers.



since you didn't answer my question I'll rephrase; How does this plan either save them money , or make BW job of programing all this easier?



Everything you just said can be applied to them as squadmembers as well.

[Zulu_DFA]

redguppie wrote...

since you didn't answer my question I'll rephrase; How does this plan either save them money , or make BW job of programing all this easier?

Everything you just said can be applied to them as squadmembers as well.

They'll still have to make compelling plot missions right? With compelling NPCs. With lots of lines. Possibly invite new stars as voice actors, to beat ME2.

I bet relegating old squadmates to important plot positions and making a small team of new full-time squadmates, who join on the fly without any "daddy issues" attached will save them the need to hire a couple of voice acting stars. Yes, we won't come to be emotionally attached to the new squadmate as strongly as to the old ones, but that's their sad fate. The story of "Shepard vs. Reapers" must be the focus, and be resolved with the respect of our "big choices". That doesn't leave much room (disk space & budget) to the development of the support cast (including Garrus, Tali, Liara). It must be concluded in some short and decisive manner, so that by the time of the final battle the story must be focused solely on Shepard.

You must understand, I think, that Shepard is likely to die in the end?

Or they can make a really cheap game, where no choices other then LI will matter in the end, where Shepard sits on a bench, hugs his LI, watches the sunset and a superimposed epilogue in pink letters reads: "... and they lived happily ever after."

[Mister_Tez]

Ecael wrote...

To me, that leaves (for varying reasons): Grunt, Tali, Garrus, Legion, Miranda and Jacob.

Someone agrees, even with the same characters

Tali - Clear fan favorite since ME1 and integral part of the quarian story, love interest
Garrus - Clear fan favorite since ME1, love interest
Legion - Can survive whether you kill him, keep him inactive or send him to Cerberus.
Miranda - Most difficult squadmate to get killed in the suicide mission, quits Cerberus to side with Shepard
Jacob - Can easily side with Shepard at the end and quit Cerberus as well
Grunt - This may not be a good excuse, but why would BioWare want to design a third Krogan character (unless it were female?)

As for the others, I already listed why they are unlikely to come back:
-Samara/Morinth (Samara said she might try to kill Shepard herself, Morinth is obvious)
-Thane (Terminal illness, may be able to see him one last time before he dies)
-Jack (Neurological illness, may continue to degenerate and leaves)
-Mordin (Too old, easily dies in the suicide mission)
-Zaeed (Bounty hunter, only does what he is paid for)
-Kasumi (Too late to develop a large fanbase, won't have a compelling backstory)

I think this makes the most sense.

The rest of the team could be e.g. Liara + Ashley/Kaiden + two/four new people. If you kept the whole ME2 team alive, then great, you have the relevant six ME2 survivors + the people added in ME3. If you didn't keep any of those relevant returning characters alive, then tough, "dire consequences" mean you're limited to just the ones added in ME3 [And variations in between].

Doesn't involve extra dialogue compared to ME2, because the total team size is the same, but there's only half the number of recruitment & loyalty missions, as obviously the ME2 returning characters have already been recruited & made loyal. OK, each character would also need dialogue for every possible mission they could be taken on, along with post-mission chatter aboard the Normandy, but that's no different to ME1 or ME2.

All team members from ME2 being expendable & not strongly tied to the ME3 story means that although you could have various different combinations of ME2 characters carrying over into ME3, it would'nt matter for the story, wouldn't complicate things, as they have no real affect on it.

[Tennyochan]

I'm thinking how the story would progress with killed of characters.
The ones that push the story or are involved with the other races- like Tali,Garrus,Mordin,Grunt,Legion,Samara

-Grunt & Legion:they have their 'species-representatives' (wrex & other 1183 geth programs) but as a Playerable Character they either have to introduce another krogan or a new tank/race. Another Geth can be introduced considering they are all 'one-mind' but it would seem odd.

-Tali's death may have Kal'Reegar play as a lead character/npc now. he has a good VA but dear lord his ugly in red. (male quarian squadys for me3! )
-Thane/the Drell/Haner depends on if they want to explore their race more. (we have really only seen 2 drell in me2)
-Samara/Asari shes already said she would leave but you could call on her again. Plus we have liara. so i see no need to introduce another asari unless she doesnt join you.
-Garrus & Mordin. We could probably expect to see a new Turian/Salarian character/npc. Both are coucil races, must play a part in me3.

well thats my 2cents

Modifié par tennyochan, 26 février 2010 - 12:37 .

[Ghostano]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ghostano wrote...

Alratan wrote...

They also created different origins for Shepard along with different choices from ME1->ME2 which means there are significant sections of dialogue/text that are impossible to see in a single playthrough.

 For me the only difference I see in orgins in ME2 is who you get a e-mail from and a couple things said on the news. I do not remeber any NPC talking to me or bringing it up in ME2. I could be wrong would not be the first and will not be the last time if so.

Yeah, I wanted a continuation of background exclusive quest. Wanted for set free Kurt Weisman (easy 1 minute quest on the Purgatory). Other stoires could have had a continuation too, like TIM making a conference call uplink to Spacer Shepard's reitred Mom. And Talitha met somewhere on the Citadel for Colonist Shepard with an option to help her somehow, to get a job or something.

Also no reflection of Sole Survivor's history with Cerberus is a major flaw.

They didn't put in these simplest things related to the very Shepard's own character. What do you people expect from other characters' development, really?

 I think I got a e-mail from toomas ( think that was his name) basically saying what the hell man I got my on merc group and if I see you again sicne you are with cerberus I will kill you. I tihnk I got a e-mail from Talitha also saying she is getting better but I was really hopeing to see her again.