367 réponses à ce sujet

[Gill Kaiser]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Chronogryphon wrote...

I agree with BellaStrega. This is ridiculous. They built up the squad in ME2 to be used in ME3.

Has Bioware ever indicated anything of the sort? No, in fact they have said that certain characters were "benched" for the duration of ME2 to keep them safe and 100% available for ME3.

True. However, that just means that the squadmates who can die in ME2 can't be crucial to the main plot. That doesn't mean they can't return as full squadmates.

[Ecael]

Am I one of the few who's of the opinion that they'll keep HALF of the crew as squadmates in ME3? Consider/Enkindle this:

-Several characters in ME2 have developed huge fanbases, which BioWare does take into account
-Certain squadmates have a much better chance of surviving the suicide mission than others
-Certain squadmates have specialized roles that also have them surviving the suicide mission more likely
-It is much more difficult to kill everyone off than to save everyone - and even then, most people try to go for a save with the most people saved
-Certain squadmates have reasons that they could die/leave immediately after the mission
-Just because ME2 had to be a entirely new game does not mean they have to eliminate all previous characters as squadmates (Garrus and Tali returned, and people who haven't played ME1 will still get them)

Thus, BioWare can take the ones who most likely to survive, have a huge fanbase, and have their voice actor available and write them in as squadmates -- AND at the same time make the canon ME3 Shepard have all of those specific squadmates saved while the others are automatically written out/replaced by placeholders. For example:

Returning Squadmates for ME3
-Liara
-Kaidan or Ashley
-Garrus
-Tali
-Legion
-Miranda or Jacob*
-Grunt or Wrex**

*Miranda resigns from Cerberus only if you destroy the base, therefore:
      -Destroyed Collector base - Shepard gets Miranda, Miranda hates Cerberus for wanting to keep it
      -Saved Collector base - Shepard gets Jacob, Jacob hates Cerberus for what they eventually do with it

**It is highly unlikely that Urdnot Grunt and Urdnot Wrex will both be dead in more than a few imports, therefore:
      -Wrex dead, Grunt alive - Grunt goes with you on your mission
      -Grunt dead, Wrex alive - Wrex goes with you on your mission
      -Wrex dead, Grunt dead - No Krogan squadmate for you! (or you get a placeholder/Vorcha squadmate, ha!)

(Side note: Steve Blum is able to voice several other characters for Mass Effect, so I can definitely see him returning to do Grunt at the very least)

This allows new characters to be introduced, but at the same time allows the game to be more story driven instead of character driven. ME1 allowed you to recruit 6 squadmates in a very short period of time. Add 6 brand new ME3 squadmates to that list above and you have 13 squadmates for a baker's dozen, which is not unreasonable. People who have any or all of these dead in their import (highly unlikely, as these people are leaders/tech experts/'hold the line' warriors) can simply play without them and still have at least 7 squadmates for the rest of the game, which is STILL more than ME1. People who start a New Game (or New Game+ and get a menu to choose their squadmates) will simply have the canon Shepard saving these specific squadmates.

Squadmates that leave/die/are replaced by placeholders
-Samara/Morinth (Samara said she'll continue her duties, Morinth is obvious)
-Thane (Terminal illness, may be able to see him one last time before he dies)
-Jack (Neurological illness, may continue to degenerate and leaves)
-Mordin (Too old, easily dies in the suicide mission)
-Zaeed (Bounty hunter, only does what he is paid for)
-Kasumi (Too late to develop a large fanbase, won't have a compelling backstory)

These characters can be relegated to cameos if they survived your import, and will NOT appear for a canon ME3 Shepard.

Have you played ME1? If not, do it. If yes, you should know that to be recruited a character does not require a separate mission and any extra dialogue. Also this "loyalty mission" crap was just to fill in content between the really important story parts, that is ME1 and ME3, and also to bring in a simlpe modifier to the suicide mission deaths.

The fact that you call the loyalty missions 'crap' is exactly the problem. The recruitment and loyalty missions are only meaningless if none of these characters returned to help you in the next game. BioWare spent 90% of Mass Effect 2 on character development, there is no reason why none of them will return in the next game to play major roles.

Modifié par Ecael, 24 février 2010 - 12:23 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

I predict that Bioware will bring back the 4 or 5 most popular ME2 squadmates (Tali, Garrus and Mordin will probably qualify), add Liara and maybe Ash/Kaidan, and introduce two new characters.

I got Tali and Mordin killed on the suicide mission. Am I screwed?

Naa, you'd still have 7 characters to choose from, wouldn't you?

I also got killed Jack and Thane, and never let Grunt out of his pod. Kinda stupid we can sell Legion to Cerberus but not Grunt, although he's got Collector tech in him.

[iNixiRir]

Every squadmember can die. I don't think Bioware would play another Me2(Normandy destroyed again, Shepard reborn, crew went off to do something else). But if you and your crew survived, why would anyone leave your team? Not one squadmember has a good reason to do so, at least not a better reason than stopping the reapers. That's why I also want to have Liara/Ashley/Kaiden back as a squadmember, because chasing the Shadow Broker or being pissed of at Cerberus isn't more important than winning the war against the biggest threat in the galaxy.



People are suggesting that Tali will become an admiral in Me3. Why would she do that at the most crucial time? She, with Garrus, are the 2 that know exactly how real the threat is. They were there the first and second time. They went to hell and back for Shepard, and Shepard for them(Atleast most Shepards). I would find it odd it they go like: "Sorry Shepard, I know how big the threat is, but I will have to pass this time".

Same thing for most characters.



How Bioware is gonna do this, is the question. I have no doubt they will deliver. I just hope that your Me squad joins your Me2 squad and along the way some other new peeps will join(maybe replacements for those that died). But I guess this is a long shot.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Computron2000 wrote...

As for scripts and editing mentioned by someone earlier, those are a 1 time deal. Its written, edited, finalised and all localization of VAs are done using the same script with translations. Translation costs are not prohibitive compared to the various other costs. Local VA recruitment is also not that costly if you do not use big names. The local drama/community stage play people could do it cheap.

I don't think that BioWare does its own localization.

[FlintlockJazz]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

To all of those who think recruitment of new characters requires a lot of lines of dialogue. The recruitment dialoge in ME1 (I don't remember the exact wording, but the number of line is correct):

Ashley:
- Williams, you're going with us, we need that beacon.
- Aye-aye, sir!

Garrus:
- Shepard, let me go with you after Saren!
- Why do you want to get Saren? He's a turian, like you.
- He is a crook, and I am a cop.
- Are you sure about that?
- Yes I am.
- Let's go then.

Tali:
- Shepard, let me go with you!
- I thought you're on your pilgrimage.
- Saving the galaxy is the best type of pilgrimage, isn't it? You saw me blowing away those hitmen in the alley, right?
- I still think you're to immature for that sort of thing.
Udina: Shepard, You shoud take her with you.
- If you say so, Ambassador.

Wrex:
- Shepard, hello.
- What do you want?
- You blew away Fist [I let him go], here is your money.
- What's the catch?
- No catch, I am the proudest krogan in the Galaxy. I heard you're going after Saren, take me with you.
- Why? Saren will pay you better.
- I don't fight for money, I just fight.
- Krogans are pain in the arse, get lost.
- I am not pain in the arse, I never taike aim at the captain of the ship.
- I say again, get lost. And pick bananas outta you ears... or whatever.
- Fine, I'll be in Cora's Den in case I got it all wrong and you didn't blow away Fist and he returns there.

Liara:
- Shepard, you wasted my mum, and blew up my dig site...
- Fine, I already have aliens on my boat, at least you're the one I can romance. But you have to see Dr. Chakwas first...
- Thank you, Shepard.

This makes an average of less then 6 lines per character.

Well, there's more to it than that, the missions involved for instance, but regardless, compare that to the recruitment and loyalty dialogue in ME2, which is the more relevant one for this discussion.

[Computron2000]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I also got killed Jack and Thane, and never let Grunt out of his pod. Kinda stupid we can sell Legion to Cerberus but not Grunt, although he's got Collector tech in him.

Since you're deliberately screwing yourself, i believe BW will continue to let you enjoy screwing yourself. Your choice, your consequences after all

Modifié par Computron2000, 24 février 2010 - 12:20 .

[bdipauly]

Why not just do it in the same way they did Shepard. If he/she dies at the end of ME2 then you cannot transfer your character into ME3, so it could work the same for the crew. If one of them dies, you cannot use your save game. Replay it until everyone survives. As said, it ain't that hard.

Modifié par Paulypie, 24 février 2010 - 12:23 .

[Computron2000]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
I don't think that BioWare does its own localization.

Thats even better. Throw it open for tender and grab the lowest and/or most cost effective bid

[Chronogryphon]

Pauravi wrote...

Chronogryphon wrote...

I agree with BellaStrega. This is ridiculous. They built up the squad in ME2 to be used in ME3. The only characters that I can possibly see not being in the squad in ME3 are Jacob and Miranda. They both work for Cerberus and Miranda is still completely loyal to them.

No she isn't.
If you bring her with to the last battle and choose to blow up the Collector base, TIM tells her to stop you.  She tells him to f-off and resigns then and there.

Jacob doesn't seem to trust Cerberus, but he still believes they are the only ones doing anything about the Reaper threat.

Between them and the Alliance maybe, but now that you're on the scene why wouldn't he leave Cerberus?  After all, YOU'RE doing something about the Reaper threat.

Ah, I haven't taken Jacob and Miranda into the final fight yet. Okay, well then that makes it all the easier to believe that the crew in ME2 was specifically built up to be your crew in ME3. To be honest, I suspected that Jacob would leave Cerberus, but I was a little iffy on Miranda. Good to see she has at least some willpower to stand up against Cerberus's inhumane actions.

[GenericPlayer2]

Default137 wrote...

I mean, look at the facts, out of the four crewmembers that survived ME1, two are still with you,
are fully voiced out, with loyalty quests and everything

That is a very weak point in your argument - Garrus and Tali cannot die in ME1, so they are not survivors.

Bringing back people from the dead just cheapens the entire ME2 experience. ME3 will have to be playable with only 2 team members, so the issue is whether the survivors will play a large role or will play a small role with a few lines that can be substituted with a new face.

No one knows how BioWare will implement things in ME3. They did a great job with ME2 and I will have to just trust them. If ME3 is really a year away like BW says, then it is probably well along in its development and all this debate is moot.

[Xandurpein]

sergio71785 wrote...

I'm positive every potential LI will be a squad member in ME3.

Morinth/Samara will not be back as squad members. Liara (who is incapable of having died thus far) will take the role of the biotic asari crew member. Also, the fact that Morinth/Samara are interchangeable, also leads me to believe they never intended to develop either one very far for ME3. 

While I think you may be right, I don't think your logic is correct. Ashley/Kaidan is also interchangable as of Virmire, and I'm sure the survivor will be in ME3.

[Zulu_DFA]

ExtremeOne wrote...

smore006 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I think we'll get Liara, Ashley/Kaidan, Legion and around 5 new mercenary type characters with little to zero "daddy issues."

There is another option, not unlike your idea:
Bioware could 'force' the player to save everyone - they make the 'default' ME3 with the most of the ME2 crew and those from ME1. If the player saved all those in ME2 - and i'm sure most of us did - (s)he will happily continue with the story, squad convos, personal missions (?) and the like included.
If the player let the squad die, (s)he gets the ME1 crewmembers + some no-name mercenaries/soldiers with next to nothing squad interaction and/or missions (aka Zaeed, even though he had a mission).

That way the voice acting wouldn't cost too much (at least not more than for ME2) and everyone would get what (s)he asked for. Also, massive consequences for letting the ME2 die. 

 


I totally disagree. Mass Effect 2 is about the choices a player makes and if that player hates certain squad mates and gets them killed off in his or her game then that means they are dead in the 3rd one. Bioware better not start forcing a you must get everyone to survive rule on ME 2 or that character will not be in ME 3. players should have a choice in ME 3 of who they want on the squad and who they do not.  

No-no-no! I like Smore006's idea. 'cause I liked Zaeed most in ME1 he continually helped me  get the job done. He didn't me ask to babysit him, although provided losts valuable comments during missions and interesting and entertaining stories between them, if I was in the mood to listen.

[Pauravi]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Because every single voice actor's line needs to be scripted, edited, acted and localized.  Voice acting adds a lot of extra costs when you consider what has to be done in addition to just making the characters talk in the English version of the game.

Based on your reply you didn't even read what I wrote beyond the first sentence.  You didn't address any of the arguments I made.  In fact, the post you replied to already debunks, or at least calls into question, your reply to it.  FAIL.

I responded to the part that was most pertinent to your point.

No, you didn't.  You responded to my rheotorical question about why people think that voice acting is so resource intensive.  I actually had several points.  What you did not respond to was:
- The fact that ME3 will have significantly reduced development costs due to using the same engine.  ME2 already has 10 characters with full parts, plus Zaeed who has a loyalty mission, plus whatever Kasumi will have.  Saying that ME3 will cut out all the ME2 characters and slim it down to just a few new ones plus ME1 characters implies that Bioware is not willing to spend even as much on their series finale as they did on part 2.  Ridiculous.
- The fact that no dialogue will go "unused" from the player's perspective.  Even if someone imports a save with only two characters alive, there is no reason why they would not go back and make a new Shepard where more survive from ME2.  Eventually everyone will see most of the content.  It isn't wasted effort.
- All of the story reasons.  Do you really believe that Bioware would plan a trilogy, tout the idea that your choices matter, design an entire game centered around developing characters and surviving a suicide mission, and then make NONE of those choices matter significantly in ME3?  To do such a thing would disjoint the story as well as break people's involvement in it.
- It breaks the trilogy format to start introducing new characters instead of wrapping up the stories of the old ones.

Thats only what I raised in my last post.  There are plenty of other reasons.
There is basically no good reason that Bioware will do what you're saying they will.

[Xandurpein]

Why assume that Bioware would never add voice acting for squadmates that may have died in ME2? Let's compare things statistically. Say thet on an average game of ME2, two squad mates die. That would mean that there is theoretically a 20% risk that any voice acting for Tali in ME3 is in vain.

But on average there is a 50% risk that any voice acting for Ashley in ME3 is in vain.

It would be a safer bet to leave Ashley out of ME3, than Tali really.

Personally I think both Ashley and Tali will be back in ME3 as squadmates, because they are both popular LI, and Bioware aren't stupid about such things.

[Zulu_DFA]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

To all of those who think recruitment of new characters requires a lot of lines of dialogue. The recruitment dialoge in ME1 (I don't remember the exact wording, but the number of line is correct):

Ashley:
- Williams, you're going with us, we need that beacon.
- Aye-aye, sir!

Garrus:
- Shepard, let me go with you after Saren!
- Why do you want to get Saren? He's a turian, like you.
- He is a crook, and I am a cop.
- Are you sure about that?
- Yes I am.
- Let's go then.

Tali:
- Shepard, let me go with you!
- I thought you're on your pilgrimage.
- Saving the galaxy is the best type of pilgrimage, isn't it? You saw me blowing away those hitmen in the alley, right?
- I still think you're to immature for that sort of thing.
Udina: Shepard, You shoud take her with you.
- If you say so, Ambassador.

Wrex:
- Shepard, hello.
- What do you want?
- You blew away Fist [I let him go], here is your money.
- What's the catch?
- No catch, I am the proudest krogan in the Galaxy. I heard you're going after Saren, take me with you.
- Why? Saren will pay you better.
- I don't fight for money, I just fight.
- Krogans are pain in the arse, get lost.
- I am not pain in the arse, I never taike aim at the captain of the ship.
- I say again, get lost. And pick bananas outta you ears... or whatever.
- Fine, I'll be in Cora's Den in case I got it all wrong and you didn't blow away Fist and he returns there.

Liara:
- Shepard, you wasted my mum, and blew up my dig site...
- Fine, I already have aliens on my boat, at least you're the one I can romance. But you have to see Dr. Chakwas first...
- Thank you, Shepard.

This makes an average of less then 6 lines per character.

Well, there's more to it than that, the missions involved for instance, but regardless, compare that to the recruitment and loyalty dialogue in ME2, which is the more relevant one for this discussion.

Missions involved were crucilal to the main plot.

Recruitment and loyalty dialogue in ME2 is irrelevant to the story of Shepard vs. Reapers, which is all that ME is about as a trilogy.

[Zulu_DFA]

Computron2000 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
I also got killed Jack and Thane, and never let Grunt out of his pod. Kinda stupid we can sell Legion to Cerberus but not Grunt, although he's got Collector tech in him.

Since you're deliberately screwing yourself, i believe BW will continue to let you enjoy screwing yourself. Your choice, your consequences after all

I just don't think any particular individual is indispenseable for the destruction of the Reapers. Aside from Shepard, maybe, for the reasons TIM stated.

On the other hand, I think BioWare screwed about the "suicide mission" by making a snivelish "everyone survives" happy end possible . Even the Hollywood is long past that. I was deliberate at correcting that mistake for my Mass Effect universe.

[Ecael]

Missions involved were crucilal to the main plot.

Recruitment
and loyalty dialogue in ME2 is irrelevant to the story of Shepard vs.
Reapers, which is all that ME is about as a trilogy.

It's only irrelevant (as I mentioned in my post at the beginning of page 4) if none of them play major roles as squadmates in Mass Effect 3.

Mass Effect is all about choices and consequences - who lives in the suicide mission is one of many. Mass Effect 2 was terrible with consequences, but it is the second of a trilogy, after all. It still gave you many choices that can affect the third game, which should be all about consequences.

If Mass Effect 2's character development have no consequence (and the other choices in ME1/ME2 have insignificant consequence in ME3), then I think the Mass Effect trilogy as a whole will become nothing but an ordinary shooter with too many 'talking lines'. They've completely simplified and streamlined the gameplay (a good thing, in my opinion), as if they've changed everything but the Unreal Engine and the dialogue wheel. If you take out the meaning of the dialogue wheel itself, then what's stopping Mass Effect 3 from becoming Gears of War 1?

[The Capital Gaultier]

Pauravi wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Because every single voice actor's line needs to be scripted, edited, acted and localized.  Voice acting adds a lot of extra costs when you consider what has to be done in addition to just making the characters talk in the English version of the game.

Based on your reply you didn't even read what I wrote beyond the first sentence.  You didn't address any of the arguments I made.  In fact, the post you replied to already debunks, or at least calls into question, your reply to it.  FAIL.

I responded to the part that was most pertinent to your point.

No, you didn't.  You responded to my rheotorical question about why people think that voice acting is so resource intensive.  I actually had several points.  What you did not respond to was:
- The fact that ME3 will have significantly reduced development costs due to using the same engine.  ME2 already has 10 characters with full parts, plus Zaeed who has a loyalty mission, plus whatever Kasumi will have.  Saying that ME3 will cut out all the ME2 characters and slim it down to just a few new ones plus ME1 characters implies that Bioware is not willing to spend even as much on their series finale as they did on part 2.  Ridiculous.
- The fact that no dialogue will go "unused" from the player's perspective.  Even if someone imports a save with only two characters alive, there is no reason why they would not go back and make a new Shepard where more survive from ME2.  Eventually everyone will see most of the content.  It isn't wasted effort.
- All of the story reasons.  Do you really believe that Bioware would plan a trilogy, tout the idea that your choices matter, design an entire game centered around developing characters and surviving a suicide mission, and then make NONE of those choices matter significantly in ME3?  To do such a thing would disjoint the story as well as break people's involvement in it.
- It breaks the trilogy format to start introducing new characters instead of wrapping up the stories of the old ones.

Thats only what I raised in my last post.  There are plenty of other reasons.
There is basically no good reason that Bioware will do what you're saying they will.

None of those are pertinent in my opinion.  They turn the argument into even more unknown territory regarding how BioWare is funded and what they consider valuable to players.

[Xandurpein]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Bringing back people from the dead just cheapens the entire ME2 experience. ME3 will have to be playable with only 2 team members, so the issue is whether the survivors will play a large role or will play a small role with a few lines that can be substituted with a new face.

So by your line of reasoning the only squad mates we see in ME3 will be Liara and Wrex, as everyone else can die? Allow me to guess that Bioware will rather risk that some conversations will be not used by all, rather than remove all LI except Liara as squad mates, and risk the anger of dispointed players.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 24 février 2010 - 12:53 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Paulypie wrote...

Why not just do it in the same way they did Shepard. If he/she dies at the end of ME2 then you cannot transfer your character into ME3, so it could work the same for the crew. If one of them dies, you cannot use your save game. Replay it until everyone survives. As said, it ain't that hard.

That's as bad as get all of them killed on the "suicide mission" them see them mysteriously reappear in the 3.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 février 2010 - 01:07 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

If Mass Effect 2's character development have no consequence (and the other choices in ME1/ME2 have insignificant consequence in ME3),

Are you nuts?
How can the choice to save/ leave the Council to die be inferior to any other choice so far?
Even minor choices from ME1, like yet unaccounted for choice of endorsing Terra Firma, trump those character development choices from ME2. because you know, if Saracino gets elected, it's somehow going to affect the whole of Systems Alliance. And the choice of what to do with Jacob's dad, and is it Kolyat who kills that turian bastard, or Shepard himself, and whether Jacob & Thane survive Omega-4 or not, is pretty small things in terms of the looming galactic extinction.

Any squadmate is expendable and replaceable, since there are a lot of capable individuals of all the major races around to provide Shepard fire support on his way to ultimate victory. Shepard is Savior of the Galaxy not a babysitter. Still Shepard falls a little short of being an actual Jesus Christ, therefore his "apostles" are also part-time workers.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 février 2010 - 01:10 .

[ExtremeOne]

Paulypie wrote...

Why not just do it in the same way they did Shepard. If he/she dies at the end of ME2 then you cannot transfer your character into ME3, so it could work the same for the crew. If one of them dies, you cannot use your save game. Replay it until everyone survives. As said, it ain't that hard.

 


They better not make it like that squad mates are different than Commander Shepard 

[Nozybidaj]

"Wow, this character is so important to the story, you know what we should do? Lets create a sequel where they are not even in the game, it'll be great, the fans are gonna love it!"



That sure sounds a lot like "it arr to hurd to write gud" to me. /shrug

[Zhijn]

Im sure BW consider'd the deaths of squad members in ME2 to carry over to ME3.
Otherwise BW utterly dropped their A-Game right there with the hole "every choice matters, blabla".

Altho you really have had to not pay attention to get anyone killed.

As to the others. I dont really see Wrex/Ash/Kaiden returning as squad members, Wrex is a clan leader now, Ash/Kaiden are the same rank as Shepard, so mabye a camo on another ship?. Liara, i cant figure that crazed Asari out. =d

Argh, who really knows but BW.

p.s the only person i can see returning without harm is Miranda considering what a frickin hell it was to kill her. And how she would magical appear if did manage to kill her early on the suicide mission.

Modifié par Zhijn, 24 février 2010 - 01:42 .