367 réponses à ce sujet

[kraidy1117]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Bioware has a plan, no one would make a game focus on a sucide mission, then tell us that your Li will have an importent part in ME3 and building friendship with the new crew and not have a plan for it in ME3. Introducing a whole new squad in ME3 will ****** off ALOT of people, I did not mine how ME LI where handled. Ash's scene was very emointial and made cheating on her with Miranada easy. The thing is they where left put so they could have a part in ME2, Bioware doing nothing with ME2 LI (which are better then ME LI) would ****** off too many people.

Dont you see the conflict in saying "we arent giving the ME1 LIs a big role so that they are safe for ME3" and then giving the ME2 squad an equally important role in ME3? Its BS hypocrisy, and shows that they could have added the ME1 LIs into ME2 in a good role if they wanted, they just made an excuse not to.

The fact that the ME1 LIs have practically no presence in ME2 has to be made up for in ME3, otherwise it was a waste of the time and they should have just ditched the characters right then and there.

Likewise the ME2 squad in ME3 may have to face up to the fact that potentially any of them could be dead come ME3.

If they remain squadmates in ME3, I cant see them as being anything but flat and lifeless due to a lack of development. Have a squad approaching 15+ in ME3 would be ridiculous, and even if its a "pick and choose" style, thats still ridiculous due to the amount of content needed for each (otherwise, like I said, flat and lifeless).

I dont have all the friggin answers. I just think based on everything weve seen, the majority of the ME2 squad could simply be in for cameo roles. Otherwise ME3 will end up having so many permutations based on a game made around about 2 years earlier that could make it a very messy experience.

Whos to say ALL your squadmates from ME2 will be in the squade?

Ash/Kaidan
Liara
Miranada
Jacob
Garrus
Tali
Thane
Jack
Legion
Mordin or Grunt

Thats 10 people coming back, add maybe 4 to 5  new squadmates and you have 14 or 15 squadmates. How is that messy? Thats works very well.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 24 février 2010 - 03:40 .

[Nozybidaj]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Q: How many people refrainedfrom buying ME2 because Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan were cameos?
A: None.

I'll just touch on this one.  I still purchased ME2 because BW came out and asked us to have faith in them, that they knew what they were doing, that we wouldn't be disappointed with their roles in ME2.  Based on the strength of their past games and my love of ME1 I was ready to give them the benefit of the doubt.  And this doesn't even apply to the majority of folks who played ME1 and bought ME2 since you would have had no idea that this was even the case unless you followed the forums.  I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there who were surprised and disappointed at how the game carried these characters through.

That said, I'd be stupid and nothing short of a hypocrite if I made that same mistake with ME3.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  Just saying....

[kraidy1117]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Q: How many people refrainedfrom buying ME2 because Wrex, Liara and Ashley/Kaidan were cameos?
A: None.

I'll just touch on this one.  I still purchased ME2 because BW came out and asked us to have faith in them, that they knew what they were doing, that we wouldn't be disappointed with their roles in ME2.  Based on the strength of their past games and my love of ME1 I was ready to give them the benefit of the doubt.  And this doesn't even apply to the majority of folks who played ME1 and bought ME2 since you would have had no idea that this was even the case unless you followed the forums.  I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there who were surprised and disappointed at how the game carried these characters through.

That said, I'd be stupid and nothing short of a hypocrite if I made that same mistake with ME3.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  Just saying....

You can't pleese everyone, people should learn this.

[Ecael]

Whos to say ALL your squadmates from ME2 will be in the squade?

Ash/Kaidan
Liara
Miranada
Jacob
Garrus
Tali
Thane
Jack
Legion
Mordin or Grunt

Thats
10 people coming back, add maybe 4 to 5  new squadmates and you have 14
or 15 squadmates. How is that messy? Thats works very well.

This is like I mentioned in my post - BioWare can easily compromise and take away a bunch of characters while keeping others, even if it is a suicide mission.

Am I one of the few who's of the opinion that they'll keep HALF of the crew as squadmates in ME3? Consider/Enkindle this:

-Several characters in ME2 have developed huge fanbases, which BioWare does take into account
-Certain squadmates have a much better chance of surviving the suicide mission than others
-Certain squadmates have specialized roles that also have them surviving the suicide mission more likely
-It is much more difficult to kill everyone off than to save everyone - and even then, most people try to go for a save with the most people saved
-Certain squadmates have reasons that they could die/leave immediately after the mission
-Just because ME2 had to be a entirely new game does not mean they have to eliminate all previous characters as squadmates (Garrus and Tali returned, and people who haven't played ME1 will still get them)

Thus, BioWare can take the ones who most likely to survive, have a huge fanbase, and have their voice actor available and write them in as squadmates -- AND at the same time make the canon ME3 Shepard have all of those specific squadmates saved while the others are automatically written out/replaced by placeholders. For example:

Returning Squadmates for ME3
-Liara
-Kaidan or Ashley
-Garrus
-Tali
-Legion
-Miranda or Jacob*
-Grunt or Wrex**

*Miranda resigns from Cerberus only if you destroy the base, therefore:
      -Destroyed Collector base - Shepard gets Miranda, Miranda hates Cerberus for wanting to keep it
      -Saved Collector base - Shepard gets Jacob, Jacob hates Cerberus for what they eventually do with it

**It is highly unlikely that Urdnot Grunt and Urdnot Wrex will both be dead in more than a few imports, therefore:
      -Wrex dead, Grunt alive - Grunt goes with you on your mission
      -Grunt dead, Wrex alive - Wrex goes with you on your mission
      -Wrex dead, Grunt dead - No Krogan squadmate for you! (or you get a placeholder/Vorcha squadmate, ha!)

(Side note: Steve Blum is able to voice several other characters for Mass Effect, so I can definitely see him returning to do Grunt at the very least)

This allows new characters to be introduced, but at the same time allows the game to be more story driven instead of character driven. ME1 allowed you to recruit 6 squadmates in a very short period of time. Add 6 brand new ME3 squadmates to that list above and you have 13 squadmates for a baker's dozen, which is not unreasonable. People who have any or all of these dead in their import (highly unlikely, as these people are leaders/tech experts/'hold the line' warriors) can simply play without them and still have at least 7 squadmates for the rest of the game, which is STILL more than ME1. People who start a New Game (or New Game+ and get a menu to choose their squadmates) will simply have the canon Shepard saving these specific squadmates.

Squadmates that leave/die/are replaced by placeholders
-Samara/Morinth (Samara said she'll continue her duties, Morinth is obvious)
-Thane (Terminal illness, may be able to see him one last time before he dies)
-Jack (Neurological illness, may continue to degenerate and leaves)
-Mordin (Too old, easily dies in the suicide mission)
-Zaeed (Bounty hunter, only does what he is paid for)
-Kasumi (Too late to develop a large fanbase, won't have a compelling backstory)

These characters can be relegated to cameos if they survived your import, and will NOT appear for a canon ME3 Shepard.

Modifié par Ecael, 24 février 2010 - 03:44 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

No I'm not, as I'm not the one who posts complaints about LIs not being in the second while attacking others for hoping that their LIs will be in the third.  I am perfectly aware of the variance for the ending in ME2 thank you very much, this is why this thread is here, to debate how Bioware might handle it.

In most trilogies that involve romance, the LI from the first part is often estranged from the main character in the second part, during which the main character's devotion is tested by a new woman (who may or may not survive), only to have the main character and the LI reunite in the final act or for some sort of resolution.  It's typical trilogy-romance, and not to be unexpected, hell even Pirates of the Caribbean pulled it off! 

So not only are to touting a loosely defined cliche as if its damn near universal, youre actually presenting it as a good thing.

Not every romance in a trilogy needs to follow such an arc. The ME romance that was started in ME1 may well do so, but its not finished yet, and could turn out quite poorly. Certainly Bioware dived on the "serperation" part of a three act romance and milked it for all its worth, since there is no romance in ME2, and at no point is it "tested", since none of the new LIs even act like it ever existed. "Succumbing" in ME2 is absolutely no different to simply starting a new romance in ME2.

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Finally, alot of people did choose to romance the characters in ME2, and alot of people also started a default Shep, who isn't in a romance with the ME1 characters, so by your logic why should Bioware bother with ME1 romances in ME3 then if it's not going to affect a massive number of gamers?

Actually, yes, by my logic Im expecting an equally dissatisfying resolution to the ME1 romance for the sake of "safety". And the fact that I cant see Bioware, as much as I would like to see otherwise for a satisfying end to the trilogy, letting a game from 4 years ago dictate a large portion of the final act, which any new fans to the trilogy wont understand.

Im not saying its "right" or "just" that the ME2 LIs might not have a massive presence in the game. Im saying its perfectly likely, since the pattern so far is simply potential character death = massively reduced role. Whether its by removing them entirely if they died, or giving them a much smaller role if they lived, thats the way its played out so far.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 24 février 2010 - 03:47 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Nozybidaj wrote...

That said, I'd be stupid and nothing short of a hypocrite if I made that same mistake with ME3.  Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  Just saying....

Actually, the saying is "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, WATCH IT, I'M HUGE!"

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Dont you see the conflict in saying "we arent giving the ME1 LIs a big role so that they are safe for ME3" and then giving the ME2 squad an equally important role in ME3? Its BS hypocrisy, and shows that they could have added the ME1 LIs into ME2 in a good role if they wanted, they just made an excuse not to.

This.  If the ME1 LI's were kept out of ME2 so they could have a big role in ME3, yet the ME2 LI's also have a big role in ME3, that "reason" just becomes an excuse and a cop out. 

I would be extremely disappointed in BW if we get to ME3 and the ME2 LI's have anywhere near the presence in the game the ME1 LI's have.  It would defeat the entire purpose of not having the ME1 LI's in ME2.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

kraidy1117 wrote...

You can't pleese everyone, people should learn this.

Yeah and people should learn that if you cant please everyone, expect to hear about it when the people who you couldnt please get pissed off. Particularly when they have handed over their own money for something.

[Xandurpein]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...


Wow, bitter and a hypocrite much?  So they should lose out on a satisfying conclusion to their LIs because the ME1 romances didn't get much screentime in 2?  You got your ME1 LIs in ME1, so it's kinda ******-for-tat in that regards, hell the ME1 romances were actually carried through in 2, if you didn't get the whole 'temptation' thing they tried to do with the ME2 romances (particularly Miranda) as part of the dark second act then you're seriously missing the plot.

Wow, stupid and ignorant much? Ive already mentioned once, the entire point behind ME2 was that "EVERYONE CAN DIE". Bioware certainly werent joking in that regard, and while it may be ****** easy to get everyone to survive, the variance in who can die and how was impressive. That creates some massive complications that Bioware claim they left the ME1 LIs out of ME2 to avoid. I didnt like it that the ME1 Lis were left out of ME2, but I had to put up with it and hope it pays off in the end. The same goes for all the new ME2 LI fans who have to accept that on a lot of playthroughs their LIs died for many folks, and that screws potentially screws up their ME3 role. If you cant get that, then its you whos seriously missing the point. That "temptation" doesnt count for **** if Miranda is a corpse, and you better believe she will be on some folks saves. Are they really going to go to great lengths to integrate her into the plot if for a massive number of gamers it wont mean anything/even be present? I personally dont think so.

Well, I can agree that they will not integrate the squad mates from ME2 into the plot in a way that will leave huge holes in the story if that person died, but that doesn't mean they can't play a significant role as LI or have some smaller personal quests unlockable only if they are alive.

Just look at Dragon Age. Alistair was integral to the main plot, and consequently you where forced into recruiting him and keeping him in your party. Leliana was entierly optional to the main plot and you where never forced to recruit her. Indeed I know lot's of people who missed her alltogether on their first play.  just because Leliana is optional to the plot, doesn't mean that she isn't any less real as a team member/LI.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

No I'm not, as I'm not the one who posts complaints about LIs not being in the second while attacking others for hoping that their LIs will be in the third.  I am perfectly aware of the variance for the ending in ME2 thank you very much, this is why this thread is here, to debate how Bioware might handle it.

In most trilogies that involve romance, the LI from the first part is often estranged from the main character in the second part, during which the main character's devotion is tested by a new woman (who may or may not survive), only to have the main character and the LI reunite in the final act or for some sort of resolution.  It's typical trilogy-romance, and not to be unexpected, hell even Pirates of the Caribbean pulled it off! 

So not only are to touting a loosely defined cliche as if its damn near universal, youre actually presenting it as a good thing.

Not every romance in a trilogy needs to follow such an arc. The ME romance that was started in ME1 may well do so, but its not finished yet, and could turn out quite poorly. Certainly Bioware dived on the "serperation" part of a three act romance and milked it for all its worth, since there is no romance in ME2, and at no point is it "tested", since none of the new LIs even act like it ever existed. "Succumbing" in ME2 is absolutely no different to simply starting a new romance in ME2.

I'm not saying that it's a good thing, I'm saying that it's blatantly what they are trying to do.  As for succumbing, there is supposed to be consequences in ME3 for cheating, dunno if that will turn out to be true but that is what they are saying.

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Finally, alot of people did choose to romance the characters in ME2, and alot of people also started a default Shep, who isn't in a romance with the ME1 characters, so by your logic why should Bioware bother with ME1 romances in ME3 then if it's not going to affect a massive number of gamers?

Actually, yes, by my logic Im expecting an equally dissatisfying resolution to the ME1 romance for the sake of "safety". And the fact that I cant see Bioware, as much as I would like to see otherwise for a satisfying end to the trilogy, letting a game from 4 years ago dictate a large portion of the final act, which any new fans to the trilogy wont understand.

Im not saying its "right" or "just" that the ME2 LIs might not have a massive presence in the game. Im saying its perfectly likely, since the pattern so far is simply potential character death = massively reduced role. Whether its by removing them entirely if they died, or giving them a hugely smaller role if they lived, thats the way its played out so far.

Right, so you're expecting the same for ME1 romances, so why did you attack that other poster in the first place for hoping that their ME2 romance carries over? 

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Xandurpein wrote...

Well, I can agree that they will not integrate the squad mates from ME2 into the plot in a way that will leave huge holes in the story if that person died, but that doesn't mean they can't play a significant role as LI or have some smaller personal quests unlockable only if they are alive.

Just look at Dragon Age. Alistair was integral to the main plot, and consequently you where forced into recruiting him and keeping him in your party. Leliana was entierly optional to the main plot and you where never forced to recruit her. Indeed I know lot's of people who missed her alltogether on their first play.  just because Leliana is optional to the plot, doesn't mean that she isn't any less real as a team member/LI.

There is a major difference between a character who can be missed, yet still has had a large amount of marketing and attention surrounding them, and if missed simply adds replay value, and a character who is dead and gone, never to be seen again on some folks saves.

I believe this was listed as the reason why Awakenings skimps on returning and continuing most of the romances and party members from the main game: it isnt worth it in their eyes.

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

iNixiRir wrote...

Did people just mysteriously forgot that your Me squad was still with you after Sovereign?

Are you sure?

Ashley/Kaidan/Liara: yes...but the rest?

Garrus wants vigilante justice on the Reapers, Wrex wants to fight for more than credits (Shepard gave him a reason), and Tali does what is best to help her fellow Quarians (fighting the Reapers is one such cause).

There's no reason that any of the 6 would want to leave after what they've been through together. That's why Shepard needed to 'die' at the beginning.

So, BioWare killed Shepard to rip him off his squadmates, then gave him back his Garrus and Tali?
No. BioWare killed Shepard to give Cerberus a chance to be good, and let the Turian Councillor have a rest from Shepard's delusions about the Reapers. And gave Tali and Garrus to the people with creepy sexual fantasies.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 février 2010 - 03:55 .

[TyDurden13]

Xandurpein wrote...


Just look at Dragon Age. Alistair was integral to the main plot, and consequently you where forced into recruiting him and keeping him in your party. Leliana was entierly optional to the main plot and you where never forced to recruit her. Indeed I know lot's of people who missed her alltogether on their first play.  just because Leliana is optional to the plot, doesn't mean that she isn't any less real as a team member/LI.

This is a good point, and one I've made myself in other threads.  In DA:O, there are exactly TWO party members (out of a potential 10) that were necessary to move the plot ahead.  Many of these other "non-essential" characetrs were entirely possible (and in some cases very easy to) miss out on completely on in a playthrough.  Just about all of them could be killed or abandoned (or abandon you) at various points in the story.  That's certainly somethign to keep in mind before you say there's no way Bioware will "waste" resources on content you misght never see in a playthrough.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

I'm not saying that it's a good thing, I'm saying that it's blatantly what they are trying to do.  As for succumbing, there is supposed to be consequences in ME3 for cheating, dunno if that will turn out to be true but that is what they are saying.

Good, then that leads me nicely on to answering your next point below.

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Right, so you're expecting the same for ME1 romances, so why did you attack that other poster in the first place for hoping that their ME2 romance carries over?

First off, I didnt "attack" anyone. Second, I may be expecting the same for the ME1 LIs, but thats the "expect the worst" mentality at work. I still must accept that Bioware have explicitly said that the ME1 LIs are SAVED for ME3 by their almost complete absence from ME2. No such thing has been said about the ME2 squad, who as I have pointed out are in varying states of dead'ness in many peoples games.

Unless Bioware want to look like liers/waste lots of time and resources on characters who are dead in many saves, Id say it points towards the ME2 squadmates potentially coming a cropper for their involvement in the suicide mission.

So its looks like we are both relying on a "thats what Bioware are saying" argument. Dont really need to continue this.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 24 février 2010 - 03:55 .

[Xandurpein]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Well, I can agree that they will not integrate the squad mates from ME2 into the plot in a way that will leave huge holes in the story if that person died, but that doesn't mean they can't play a significant role as LI or have some smaller personal quests unlockable only if they are alive.

Just look at Dragon Age. Alistair was integral to the main plot, and consequently you where forced into recruiting him and keeping him in your party. Leliana was entierly optional to the main plot and you where never forced to recruit her. Indeed I know lot's of people who missed her alltogether on their first play.  just because Leliana is optional to the plot, doesn't mean that she isn't any less real as a team member/LI.

There is a major difference between a character who can be missed, yet still has had a large amount of marketing and attention surrounding them, and if missed simply adds replay value, and a character who is dead and gone, never to be seen again on some folks saves.

I believe this was listed as the reason why Awakenings skimps on returning and continuing most of the romances and party members from the main game: it isnt worth it in their eyes.

As I posted before, that statistically Ashely and Kaidan will on average be missing from 50%  of  all ME2 saves, while Tali will be missing from maybe 20% of all ME2 saves. So is Ashley and Kaidan out too? The fact that they will fill same roll in ME3 doesn't matter at all when it comes to marketing etc.

[kraidy1117]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

You can't pleese everyone, people should learn this.

Yeah and people should learn that if you cant please everyone, expect to hear about it when the people who you couldnt please get pissed off. Particularly when they have handed over their own money for something.

Making a new squad in ME3 will ****** off alot more people then the people who where pissed with how ME LI where handled.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Making a new squad in ME3 will ****** off alot more people then the people who where pissed with how ME LI where handled.

No it wont. Gamers are fickle. It will have the same effect: ****** off the most loyal fans of the characters being sidelined, and then be ignored in favour of everyone lavishing attention on the new squad.

[Daewan]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Making a new squad in ME3 will ****** off alot more people then the people who where pissed with how ME LI where handled.

No it wont. Gamers are fickle. It will have the same effect: ****** off the most loyal fans of the characters being sidelined, and then be ignored in favour of everyone lavishing attention on the new squad.

QFT. 

[Nozybidaj]

Xandurpein wrote...

As I posted before, that statistically Ashely and Kaidan will on average be missing from 50%  of  all ME2 saves, while Tali will be missing from maybe 20% of all ME2 saves. So is Ashley and Kaidan out too? The fact that they will fill same roll in ME3 doesn't matter at all when it comes to marketing etc.

Except 100% of all ME1 and ME2 games have either Ash or Kaidan survive.  The same can not be said of Tali or any of the ME2 squad.  

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Xandurpein wrote...

As I posted before, that statistically Ashely and Kaidan will on average be missing from 50%  of  all ME2 saves, while Tali will be missing from maybe 20% of all ME2 saves. So is Ashley and Kaidan out too? The fact that they will fill same roll in ME3 doesn't matter at all when it comes to marketing etc.

Statistically, the virmire survivor is in 100% of all Mass Effect games, and that might cause issues in marketing, but one of them is there no matter what. The same with Liara as well. Yet still, there is always the "new players might not understand" take on it. We might just see the virmire survivor and Liara in slightly more elaborate sideline NPC roles in ME3, and the ME2 squad might just be cameos. Or maybe folks are right, and they will all return as optional squadmates, and the game will be a huge mess, and many characters will be poorly developed.

Who knows. I think one thing that has been brought up already though is the "carryover" in ME2 amounts to practically nothing, and with that in mind its perfectly good idea to either expect the same, or only a minor improvement come ME3.

[FlintlockJazz]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

So its looks like we are both relying on a "thats what Bioware are saying" argument. Dont really need to continue this.

Exactly.

[Xandurpein]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Making a new squad in ME3 will ****** off alot more people then the people who where pissed with how ME LI where handled.

No it wont. Gamers are fickle. It will have the same effect: ****** off the most loyal fans of the characters being sidelined, and then be ignored in favour of everyone lavishing attention on the new squad.

Do I detect a hint of resentment at the treatment of ME1 LI in ME2? Personally I liked Ashley from ME1 a lot and I think that on the whole keeping the ME1 LI out of ME2 a very good choice for their romances too. If you had had Ashley/Liara/Kaidan as squad mates in ME2 and ME3 all the time, then by the end of ME3 it runs the risk that the romances become stale. Now you are somewhat estranged form your ME1 LI and that will add the element of tension in rebuilding the relationship, which makes for a much better story telling and sense of achievement in the end.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
 We might just see the virmire survivor and Liara in slightly more elaborate sideline NPC roles in ME3, and the ME2 squad might just be cameos.

This is what I am putting my money on.

Think Anderson in ME1 for what I expect in ME3 for Ash/kaidan/Liara. 

And think Liara in ME2 for the ME2 survivors in ME3.

[MutantSpleen]

You have to take into account though (this probably has been said but haven't read the whole thread) the number of characters that can possibly die and have the mission succeed because there will be people who have that happen. So why would they bring back all the characters from ME2 if they had to outfit some players with a whole new team because the old team died. That is twice the work. I could see cameos for some of them if they lived but to do full dialogues for people that may not be in a lot of peoples games? I don't think so.

[epoch_]

I've been saying this all along.