367 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

Xandurpein wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Making a new squad in ME3 will ****** off alot more people then the people who where pissed with how ME LI where handled.

No it wont. Gamers are fickle. It will have the same effect: ****** off the most loyal fans of the characters being sidelined, and then be ignored in favour of everyone lavishing attention on the new squad.

Do I detect a hint of resentment at the treatment of ME1 LI in ME2? Personally I liked Ashley from ME1 a lot and I think that on the whole keeping the ME1 LI out of ME2 a very good choice for their romances too. If you had had Ashley/Liara/Kaidan as squad mates in ME2 and ME3 all the time, then by the end of ME3 it runs the risk that the romances become stale. Now you are somewhat estranged form your ME1 LI and that will add the element of tension in rebuilding the relationship, which makes for a much better story telling and sense of achievement in the end.

Exactly, why give you a triangle and then not follow through?

[epoch_]

This isn't ME2, the rediculous majority of the missions aren't centered around the squad. No reason they can't bring them all back for this one.

[Ecael]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
So, BioWare killed Shepard to rip him off his squadmates, then gave him back his Garrus and Tali?
No. BioWare killed Shepard to give Cerberus a chance to be good, and let the Turian Councillor have a rest from Shepard's delusions about the Reapers. And gave Tali and Garrus to the people with creepy sexual fantasies.

Yes.

The fact that Wrex and Ashley/Kaidan aren't squadmates are given convenient excuses for, but really, why would a squadmate want to leave on his/her on volition when they are one of the few who realize the Reapers are out there and one of the few that survived with Commander Shepard? And if Tali and Garrus are just there for fan service, then it's even more likely they'll show up in ME3.

Shepard: Garrus, help me save the galaxy from the Reapers or we'll all die!
Garrus: Ah yes, 'Reapers' (Turian airquotes), the immortal race of sentient starships allegedly waiting in dark space. I have dismissed that claim.

Shepard: Wrex, help me save the galaxy from the Reapers or we'll all die!
Wrex: Shepard.
Shepard: Wrex, snap out of it! Don't you want to see your Krogan clan survive?
Wrex: Shepard.
Shepard: Give me something other than my name or I'll cut your balls off and sell them to another Krogan!

Shepard: Tali, help me save the galaxy from the Reapers or we'll all die!
Tali: I'm sorry Shepard, but watching my people return to their homeworld to get obliterated by the Reapers is my current mission for my pilgrimage.

---

Modifié par Ecael, 24 février 2010 - 04:11 .

[TyDurden13]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

There is a major difference between a character who can be missed, yet still has had a large amount of marketing and attention surrounding them, and if missed simply adds replay value, and a character who is dead and gone, never to be seen again on some folks saves.

Well, they're going to have to create a canon of what happened in ME2 for people who are not importing.  it's easy enough to just have whatever characters they want to continue survive the canon, and thus be available in all non-import games.  Furthermore, they could create even more replay value my inclulding a different canon of survivors for male and femal Sheps (as they for ME1 with the Virmire decision).  Also by letting characters continue into part 3, they're creating exponentially more replay for parts 1 and 2.

[Nozybidaj]

Xandurpein wrote...
Do I detect a hint of resentment at the treatment of ME1 LI in ME2? Personally I liked Ashley from ME1 a lot and I think that on the whole keeping the ME1 LI out of ME2 a very good choice for their romances too. If you had had Ashley/Liara/Kaidan as squad mates in ME2 and ME3 all the time, then by the end of ME3 it runs the risk that the romances become stale. Now you are somewhat estranged form your ME1 LI and that will add the element of tension in rebuilding the relationship, which makes for a much better story telling and sense of achievement in the end.

Yes, lets build tension by removing the relationship from the game.  Great job.

Oh and lets reset the relationship so in ME3 we can do it all over again and end up at the exact same place we were in ME1 and never have to do any actual progression.  Great job.

I don't see how anyone could actually think ignoring the relationships actually furthers progression.  Its ridiculous.

<_<

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...


Wow, bitter and a hypocrite much?  So they should lose out on a satisfying conclusion to their LIs because the ME1 romances didn't get much screentime in 2?  You got your ME1 LIs in ME1, so it's kinda ******-for-tat in that regards, hell the ME1 romances were actually carried through in 2, if you didn't get the whole 'temptation' thing they tried to do with the ME2 romances (particularly Miranda) as part of the dark second act then you're seriously missing the plot.

Wow, stupid and ignorant much? Ive already mentioned once, the entire point behind ME2 was that "EVERYONE CAN DIE". Bioware certainly werent joking in that regard, and while it may be ****** easy to get everyone to survive, the variance in who can die and how was impressive. That creates some massive complications that Bioware claim they left the ME1 LIs out of ME2 to avoid. I didnt like it that the ME1 Lis were left out of ME2, but I had to put up with it and hope it pays off in the end. The same goes for all the new ME2 LI fans who have to accept that on a lot of playthroughs their LIs died for many folks, and that screws potentially screws up their ME3 role. If you cant get that, then its you whos seriously missing the point. That "temptation" doesnt count for **** if Miranda is a corpse, and you better believe she will be on some folks saves. Are they really going to go to great lengths to integrate her into the plot if for a massive number of gamers it wont mean anything/even be present? I personally dont think so.

Well I already knew you were thick, so I guess me trying to explain a point that has clearly been lost in that "Liara besotted" brain of yours is futile.

Wrex could get killed in ME, in fact for a default ME2 character he was. Yet the story plays out a fair bit differently if he survived and was a part of the team and thus became clan leader of Urdnot.

I suppose you are just to stupid to comprehend how him being around could affect ME3 because all you care about is Liara. Yes he was only a cameo in ME2, but that was just the 2nd part.

I know this might be hard for that tiny brain of yours to understand but they've already stated that because ME3 is the final act, they can pull out all the stops. All avenues can be explored, the pathetic linear path you believe the game follows can easily branch off in different ways for people.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Xandurpein wrote...

Do I detect a hint of resentment at the treatment of ME1 LI in ME2? Personally I liked Ashley from ME1 a lot and I think that on the whole keeping the ME1 LI out of ME2 a very good choice for their romances too. If you had had Ashley/Liara/Kaidan as squad mates in ME2 and ME3 all the time, then by the end of ME3 it runs the risk that the romances become stale. Now you are somewhat estranged form your ME1 LI and that will add the element of tension in rebuilding the relationship, which makes for a much better story telling and sense of achievement in the end.

Thats debatable. Its perfectly likely that the ME1 LIs will have no significant character development for about 4 years (the time between ME1 and ME3). Doesnt that make characters and relationships go stale?

I think what Bioware have done with ME2, if they are squadmates in ME3, is kill two birds with one stone. On the one hand they minimised the effort involved in doing the ME1 LIs in ME2, since they have almost no presence in the game whatsoever, and also set the reset button for the hypothetical "reunited romance act" squadmate role in ME3, that is potentially new player friendly by basically having to start over again. Barring any DLC involving them, I think the purpose of ME2 for the ME1 LIs was simply to reset the characters so they are easier to handle come ME3, and they can use this poorly executed "strained romantic second act" as a crutch to support the fact that you are basically retreading the same ground as ME1.

[MutantSpleen]

TyDurden13 wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

There is a major difference between a character who can be missed, yet still has had a large amount of marketing and attention surrounding them, and if missed simply adds replay value, and a character who is dead and gone, never to be seen again on some folks saves.

Well, they're going to have to create a canon of what happened in ME2 for people who are not importing.  it's easy enough to just have whatever characters they want to continue survive the canon, and thus be available in all non-import games.  Furthermore, they could create even more replay value my inclulding a different canon of survivors for male and femal Sheps (as they for ME1 with the Virmire decision).  Also by letting characters continue into part 3, they're creating exponentially more replay for parts 1 and 2.

If its anything like ME2's canon play then it will be the most horrible ending from ME2. Most, if not all, of the crew will be dead.

[Xandurpein]

I think it's obvious that Ashley/Kaidan/Liara will be back as LI in ME3. The whole setup in ME2, the photograph on the desk and everything points to that. And so far Bioware haven't had a single fully developed romance with someone who wasn't a team member ever. Personally I think they will also keep at least the most popular LI from ME2 also.

[Sialater]

MutantSpleen wrote...


If its anything like ME2's canon play then it will be the most horrible ending from ME2. Most, if not all, of the crew will be dead.

That's just because Canon Shep's an idiot.  S/He couldn't even manage to keep Wrex alive.

[MutantSpleen]

Yes I think all the ME1 love interests will be back. There may even be cameos, brief encounters, for ME2 crew that lived but I don't see any of the ME2 crew being integral characters in the story. The way the romances in ME2 felt like flings, makes me think they will not be major either even if you did romance them.



Bioware kind of screwed themselves by letting anyone from the crew of the suicide mission possibly die.

[Ecael]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Bioware kind of screwed themselves by letting anyone from the crew of the suicide mission possibly die.

Or they had already planned to keep certain characters as squadmates while discarding the rest - a compromise between what most people seem to see as black-and-white.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
*snip*

Dont waste your time. Ive seen countless posts of yours before, and I had you pegged for an arrogant sop with his head up his backside from the first one. Just give it a rest and resume licking Biowares ass please.

[MutantSpleen]

Sialater wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...


If its anything like ME2's canon play then it will be the most horrible ending from ME2. Most, if not all, of the crew will be dead.

That's just because Canon Shep's an idiot.  S/He couldn't even manage to keep Wrex alive.

Hey now! I shot Wrex in the face too, can't have him jeopardizing the mission. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Ecael wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
So, BioWare killed Shepard to rip him off his squadmates, then gave him back his Garrus and Tali?
No. BioWare killed Shepard to give Cerberus a chance to be good, and let the Turian Councillor have a rest from Shepard's delusions about the Reapers. And gave Tali and Garrus to the people with creepy sexual fantasies.

Yes.

The fact that Wrex and Ashley/Kaidan aren't squadmates are given convenient excuses for, but really, why would a squadmate want to leave on his/her on volition when they are one of the few who realize the Reapers are out there and one of the few that survived with Commander Shepard? And if Tali and Garrus are just there for fan service, then it's even more likely they'll show up in ME3.

Shepard: Garrus, help me save the galaxy from the Reapers or we'll all die!
Garrus: Ah yes, 'Reapers' (Turian airquotes), the immortal race of sentient starships allegedly waiting in dark space. I have dismissed that claim.

Shepard: Wrex, help me save the galaxy from the Reapers or we'll all die!
Wrex: Shepard.
Shepard: Wrex, snap out of it! Don't you want to see your Krogan clan survive?
Wrex: Shepard.
Shepard: Give me something other than my name or I'll cut your balls off and sell them to another Krogan!

Shepard: Tali, help me save the galaxy from the Reapers or we'll all die!
Tali: I'm sorry Shepard, but watching my people return to their homeworld to get obliterated by the Reapers is my current mission for my pilgrimage.

---

And?

[Nozybidaj]

In the end, all this thread really says to me is "there are going to be a lot of disappointed people come ME3". /smirk

[Druss99]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Well, I can agree that they will not integrate the squad mates from ME2 into the plot in a way that will leave huge holes in the story if that person died, but that doesn't mean they can't play a significant role as LI or have some smaller personal quests unlockable only if they are alive.

Just look at Dragon Age. Alistair was integral to the main plot, and consequently you where forced into recruiting him and keeping him in your party. Leliana was entierly optional to the main plot and you where never forced to recruit her. Indeed I know lot's of people who missed her alltogether on their first play.  just because Leliana is optional to the plot, doesn't mean that she isn't any less real as a team member/LI.

There is a major difference between a character who can be missed, yet still has had a large amount of marketing and attention surrounding them, and if missed simply adds replay value, and a character who is dead and gone, never to be seen again on some folks saves.

I believe this was listed as the reason why Awakenings skimps on returning and continuing most of the romances and party members from the main game: it isnt worth it in their eyes.

Actually that could add replayability to the franchise as a whole. People see the marketing for ME3 featuring say Miranda heavily and think "Oh she is dead in my playthrough, I wish I had her in the game."   then go back for another play through of ME2 to keep her alive. Works the whole way back to ME1 if they want to see what its like with Kaiden instead of Ashley. No one is permanently dead if you can just go back and get another save.

[Ecael]

Nozybidaj wrote...
In the end, all this thread really says to me is "there are going to be a lot of disappointed people come ME3". /smirk

Zulu_DFA wrote...
And?

And they're going to do the same with ME3 by keeping only some characters as squadmates and adding new ones? It's really the most logical choice for BioWare, knowing that their fans love some characters but others want to see new ones introduced. That way, most people *won't* be disappointed by their squadmate choices.

Modifié par Ecael, 24 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[MutantSpleen]

Ecael wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

Bioware kind of screwed themselves by letting anyone from the crew of the suicide mission possibly die.

Or they had already planned to keep certain characters as squadmates while discarding the rest - a compromise between what most people seem to see as black-and-white.

So if both Garrus and Tali died in my mission, now they are back alive?  So you have to pay the actors to do full voice for Garrus and Tali and also pay 2 new actors to voice the new characters that take their place in my game. I just don't see that being either time or cost efficient.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Druss99 wrote...

Actually that could add replayability to the franchise as a whole. People see the marketing for ME3 featuring say Miranda heavily and think "Oh she is dead in my playthrough, I wish I had her in the game."   then go back for another play through of ME2 to keep her alive. Works the whole way back to ME1 if they want to see what its like with Kaiden instead of Ashley. No one is permanently dead if you can just go back and get another save.

I had hoped that would be the case, and that come ME3 they could re-release a Mass Effect bundle for people or something like that. Somehow though, I doubt it. Theyve said at certain points that each game is self-contained in a sense, and ME3 will probably follow the ME2 model of being "new player friendly". I.e. "dont worry about all that stuff before, itll be summed up in a short video explaining things". Only the most hardcore would look at a situation and say "I think that warrents a completely new Mass Effect Trilogy playthrough". I think its clear from recent events which fan Bioware favours.

[Ecael]

MutantSpleen wrote...

So if both Garrus and Tali died in my mission, now they are back alive?  So you have to pay the actors to do full voice for Garrus and Tali and also pay 2 new actors to voice the new characters that take their place in my game. I just don't see that being either time or cost efficient.

No, if both Garrus and Tali died in your mission, they stay dead. No one takes their place. You'll still have a plethora of characters to choose from since they introduce a couple more. ME3 Canon Shepard will have those specific squadmates survive to give the full dialogue, but ME3 Canon Shepard will clearly have disadvantage to starting a whole New Game. Like I explained in my original post:

Am I one of the few who's of the opinion that they'll keep HALF of the crew as squadmates in ME3? Consider/Enkindle this:

-Several characters in ME2 have developed huge fanbases, which BioWare does take into account
-Certain squadmates have a much better chance of surviving the suicide mission than others
-Certain squadmates have specialized roles that also have them surviving the suicide mission more likely
-It is much more difficult to kill everyone off than to save everyone - and even then, most people try to go for a save with the most people saved
-Certain squadmates have reasons that they could die/leave immediately after the mission
-Just because ME2 had to be a entirely new game does not mean they have to eliminate all previous characters as squadmates (Garrus and Tali returned, and people who haven't played ME1 will still get them)

Thus, BioWare can take the ones who most likely to survive, have a huge fanbase, and have their voice actor available and write them in as squadmates -- AND at the same time make the canon ME3 Shepard have all of those specific squadmates saved while the others are automatically written out/replaced by placeholders. For example:

Returning Squadmates for ME3
-Liara
-Kaidan or Ashley
-Garrus
-Tali
-Legion
-Miranda or Jacob*
-Grunt or Wrex**

*Miranda resigns from Cerberus only if you destroy the base, therefore:
      -Destroyed Collector base - Shepard gets Miranda, Miranda hates Cerberus for wanting to keep it
      -Saved Collector base - Shepard gets Jacob, Jacob hates Cerberus for what they eventually do with it

**It is highly unlikely that Urdnot Grunt and Urdnot Wrex will both be dead in more than a few imports, therefore:
      -Wrex dead, Grunt alive - Grunt goes with you on your mission
      -Grunt dead, Wrex alive - Wrex goes with you on your mission
      -Wrex dead, Grunt dead - No Krogan squadmate for you! (or you get a placeholder/Vorcha squadmate, ha!)

(Side note: Steve Blum is able to voice several other characters for Mass Effect, so I can definitely see him returning to do Grunt at the very least)

This allows new characters to be introduced, but at the same time allows the game to be more story driven instead of character driven. ME1 allowed you to recruit 6 squadmates in a very short period of time. Add 6 brand new ME3 squadmates to that list above and you have 13 squadmates for a baker's dozen, which is not unreasonable. People who have any or all of these dead in their import (highly unlikely, as these people are leaders/tech experts/'hold the line' warriors) can simply play without them and still have at least 7 squadmates for the rest of the game, which is STILL more than ME1. People who start a New Game (or New Game+ and get a menu to choose their squadmates) will simply have the canon Shepard saving these specific squadmates.

Squadmates that leave/die/are replaced by placeholders
-Samara/Morinth (Samara said she'll continue her duties, Morinth is obvious)
-Thane (Terminal illness, may be able to see him one last time before he dies)
-Jack (Neurological illness, may continue to degenerate and leaves)
-Mordin (Too old, easily dies in the suicide mission)
-Zaeed (Bounty hunter, only does what he is paid for)
-Kasumi (Too late to develop a large fanbase, won't have a compelling backstory)

These characters can be relegated to cameos if they survived your import, and will NOT appear for a canon ME3 Shepard.

Modifié par Ecael, 24 février 2010 - 04:34 .

[Druss99]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Ecael wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

Bioware kind of screwed themselves by letting anyone from the crew of the suicide mission possibly die.

Or they had already planned to keep certain characters as squadmates while discarding the rest - a compromise between what most people seem to see as black-and-white.

So if both Garrus and Tali died in my mission, now they are back alive?  So you have to pay the actors to do full voice for Garrus and Tali and also pay 2 new actors to voice the new characters that take their place in my game. I just don't see that being either time or cost efficient.

Im of the belief that if they died you just dont get a replacement. They did say your choices in ME2 could have dire consequences in ME3. Your going to have atleast 2 survivors from ME2 and 2 from ME1 thats enough for a squad. However every squad member you kept alive that would logically still be in your squad will be there.

The whole "why record heavy voice acting if they wont be in everyones game?" doesnt wash, why punish the players that saved their squad? Keeping everyone alive is easy, if you didnt bother doing it then you dont get all the squad in ME3 its simple. If you want them bad enough you will play through ME1 and 2 again.

[MutantSpleen]

Ecael wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

So if both Garrus and Tali died in my mission, now they are back alive?  So you have to pay the actors to do full voice for Garrus and Tali and also pay 2 new actors to voice the new characters that take their place in my game. I just don't see that being either time or cost efficient.

No, if both Garrus and Tali died in your mission, they stay dead. No one takes their place. You'll still have a plethora of characters to choose from since they introduce a couple more. ME3 Canon Shepard will have those specific squadmates survive to give the full dialogue, but ME3 Canon Shepard will clearly have disadvantage to starting a whole New Game. Like I explained in my original post:

Am I one of the few who's of the opinion that they'll keep HALF of the crew as squadmates in ME3? Consider/Enkindle this:

-Several characters in ME2 have developed huge fanbases, which BioWare does take into account
-Certain squadmates have a much better chance of surviving the suicide mission than others
-Certain squadmates have specialized roles that also have them surviving the suicide mission more likely
-It is much more difficult to kill everyone off than to save everyone - and even then, most people try to go for a save with the most people saved
-Certain squadmates have reasons that they could die/leave immediately after the mission
-Just because ME2 had to be a entirely new game does not mean they have to eliminate all previous characters as squadmates (Garrus and Tali returned, and people who haven't played ME1 will still get them)

Thus, BioWare can take the ones who most likely to survive, have a huge fanbase, and have their voice actor available and write them in as squadmates -- AND at the same time make the canon ME3 Shepard have all of those specific squadmates saved while the others are automatically written out/replaced by placeholders. For example:

Returning Squadmates for ME3
-Liara
-Kaidan or Ashley
-Garrus
-Tali
-Legion
-Miranda or Jacob*
-Grunt or Wrex**

*Miranda resigns from Cerberus only if you destroy the base, therefore:
      -Destroyed Collector base - Shepard gets Miranda, Miranda hates Cerberus for wanting to keep it
      -Saved Collector base - Shepard gets Jacob, Jacob hates Cerberus for what they eventually do with it

**It is highly unlikely that Urdnot Grunt and Urdnot Wrex will both be dead in more than a few imports, therefore:
      -Wrex dead, Grunt alive - Grunt goes with you on your mission
      -Grunt dead, Wrex alive - Wrex goes with you on your mission
      -Wrex dead, Grunt dead - No Krogan squadmate for you! (or you get a placeholder/Vorcha squadmate, ha!)

(Side note: Steve Blum is able to voice several other characters for Mass Effect, so I can definitely see him returning to do Grunt at the very least)

This allows new characters to be introduced, but at the same time allows the game to be more story driven instead of character driven. ME1 allowed you to recruit 6 squadmates in a very short period of time. Add 6 brand new ME3 squadmates to that list above and you have 13 squadmates for a baker's dozen, which is not unreasonable. People who have any or all of these dead in their import (highly unlikely, as these people are leaders/tech experts/'hold the line' warriors) can simply play without them and still have at least 7 squadmates for the rest of the game, which is STILL more than ME1. People who start a New Game (or New Game+ and get a menu to choose their squadmates) will simply have the canon Shepard saving these specific squadmates.

Squadmates that leave/die/are replaced by placeholders
-Samara/Morinth (Samara said she'll continue her duties, Morinth is obvious)
-Thane (Terminal illness, may be able to see him one last time before he dies)
-Jack (Neurological illness, may continue to degenerate and leaves)
-Mordin (Too old, easily dies in the suicide mission)
-Zaeed (Bounty hunter, only does what he is paid for)
-Kasumi (Too late to develop a large fanbase, won't have a compelling backstory)

These characters can be relegated to cameos if they survived your import, and will NOT appear for a canon ME3 Shepard.

I would hope they would do this, its the most interesting. I just see fiscal reasons getting in the way.  EA says "No no Bioware your ME3 budget is too big."

[ExtremeOne]

 

MutantSpleen wrote...

Ecael wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

Bioware kind of screwed themselves by letting anyone from the crew of the suicide mission possibly die.

Or they had already planned to keep certain characters as squadmates while discarding the rest - a compromise between what most people seem to see as black-and-white.

So if both Garrus and Tali died in my mission, now they are back alive?  So you have to pay the actors to do full voice for Garrus and Tali and also pay 2 new actors to voice the new characters that take their place in my game. I just don't see that being either time or cost efficient.

  


Tali is dead in my game so in Mass Effect 3 she better remain dead in my Mass Effect 3 game. Mass Effect 3 needs to be different for all and depend on the choices you made in Mass Effect 1 and 2 or the choices you made in Mass Effect 2