118 réponses à ce sujet

[Roxlimn]

 nofanboy:

I could not disagree more.  In this game the most valuable powers are those that strip protection.  I don't know how anyone who has played this game on higher difficulty settings think that health stripping abilities are more important than protection stripping abilities.  

If that was the case why is reave and AP/warp ammo considered the best bonus skills on most classes.  If health stripping was more important then everyone would just use shredder ammo, which does more damage to health than any other ammo type.  But no one does, becuse shredder ammo sucks.  The reason is because health can be dealt with so many ways.  Until then you're limited as to what you can do.  I'll use your sentinel as an example.  With an armored or shield enemy you only have two choices, either shoot or use overload/warp.  Once you get that enemy down to health, the number of powers that can kill the enemy doubles.  Now you can also spam throw or cryo blast away. 

How is it that Reave and AP/Warp ammo are considered the best bonus skills on most classes?  Misinformation and hype, partially.  Partially because Reave, AP, and Warp Ammo are ALL powers that are very good to use against Health.  Check it.

Your reasoning is unsound.  Just because Health stripping is important doesn't mean that Shredder Ammo is any good.  In the first place, the additional damage advantage is small, and in the second place, it only affects organics.  If Shredder Ammo did +100% Health damage to all target across the board, you bet your ass I'd use it.

Just because Health can be dealt with in many ways doesn't mean that you should neglect ways to deal with Health, or that the powers that do so are bad or less important.  This is particularly true on difficulty levels that don't sport a great deal of enemy protections, which comprises 3 of the 5 settings in this game.

Warp is not more important than Throw simply because Throw is most effective against Health and Warp most effective against Armor and Barrier (but not Health).  Between them, Throw is still the more important and more powerful power - so much so, in fact, that even rank 1 of Throw compares with rank 4 of Warp.

NO amount of Warping will shut down an opponent well, as it only ever gives about a half second stun on all targets, and is particularly bad against Health targets.  Throw gives you solid insta-kill and fire control on the back half or so of your target's HP.  You only value Warp because it allows you to use Throw afterwards.

[phordicus]

no, the point is that once an enemy is down to just health, it's basically almost dead already and can be dealt with by every power and weapon out there. conversely, specific protections require specific counters and the discrepancies between different choices is much larger and of much greater consequence. the primary difference between game Difficulties is, in fact, those protections and the tactics required to deal with them.

[Roxlimn]

phordicus:

Incorrect. Health comprises a significant portion of enemy HP, particularly since few powers have bonuses against Health - which is why Reave, AP, and Warp are considered good - they do universal bonus damage to Health.

Enemies without defenses are most definitely not "almost dead." Far from it. Overload does not damage all health universally. Warp does considerably less damage. Disruptor Ammo does not aid against organic Health. Shredder Ammo does not aid against synthetic Health.

The ability to shut down enemies or kill them outright is the most powerful ability in this game and in most games. Powers that strip Defenses are only important in that they allow you to use these powers. Having the ability to strip defenses, but not deal with Health effectively is a gaping hole in a character's power slate.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 26 février 2010 - 08:04 .

[RobbertDewulf]

I've choosen barrier to ease up the killing with shotgun and to use charge.

[_Dannok1234]

phordicus wrote...

no, the point is that once an enemy is down to just health, it's basically almost dead already and can be dealt with by every power and weapon out there. conversely, specific protections require specific counters and the discrepancies between different choices is much larger and of much greater consequence. the primary difference between game Difficulties is, in fact, those protections and the tactics required to deal with them.

Thats only true for enemies that have 3 layers of defense. At that point health would mean 33.33% of their total uhm well let's say hit points.
From what I can see most enemies have a 1:1 ratio on health/shield/barrier. I've tested it specifically on Geth who were for a time accused of having very little health and a lot of shields. Which simply isn't true. It takes 3 melee hits against the shield for it to go down at level 30 on insanity with full upgraded melee . It takes another 3 hits to take down the health. (That would be a geth trooper by the way, but the same ratio holds true for hunters as well)

[SupidSeep]

Waitaminute, when does Reave get a bonus to health damage? IIRC, it is said to do double damage to Armour and Barriers.

Actually, I use Reave against unprotected targets because of the disabling effect. Against unprotected sentient organic races (including Collectors, not including husks) Reave tend to disable them for a few seconds (they drop to their knees then got forced to stand upright as the health leach takes effect), preventing them for attacking or going to cover, and giving opportunities to land the killing shots. Disabling regeneration is also useful; health leech just icing on the cake.

[Roxlimn]

SupidSeep:



It doesn't do bonus damage to Health - it just does more because it's affected by both damage and duration bonuses.

[Iosev]

SupidSeep wrote...

Waitaminute, when does Reave get a bonus to health damage? IIRC, it is said to do double damage to Armour and Barriers.
Actually, I use Reave against unprotected targets because of the disabling effect. Against unprotected sentient organic races (including Collectors, not including husks) Reave tend to disable them for a few seconds (they drop to their knees then got forced to stand upright as the health leach takes effect), preventing them for attacking or going to cover, and giving opportunities to land the killing shots. Disabling regeneration is also useful; health leech just icing on the cake.

This is exactly why I personally think Reave is so good.  I've tried most of the bonus powers with my vanguard (on insanity), and I personally have found Reave to be the far most beneficial.  It's an all-around ability that not only provides long-range damage against barriers and armor, but it can also crowd control most unprotected organics.

I typically use Reave when it is not safe to charge yet.  Reave, along with Shockwave and/or Pull, helps weaken and separate enemies enough to make it safe to charge in.

I've tried AP, Warp, and Shredder Ammo, and in my experience on insanity, I still prefer Inferno Ammo, since it helps crowd control targets, which is necessary when you're charging.

As for defensive powers like Fortification, Barrier, and Geth Shield Boost, they're OK, but even on insanity, all you really need is to know how to use charge effectively, since Heavy Charge gives a big boost to your shields whenever you activate it.

Modifié par arcelonious, 26 février 2010 - 09:07 .

[cxensign]

I'm leaning towards Slam over Reave, at least for the initial choice.

Vanguards really do not need or want much from their bonus skill.  A single point in any of the 3s cooldown biotics has a lot of value; they'll kill weak enemies outright, and cc anything else reduced to health indefinitely.  The initial point will provide reasonably good value while you can focus your points on Charge/Ammo/Passive.  Unlike Reave, Slam's 3s cooldown does not interfere signficantly with Charge.

You can drop Slam later in the game, once you have the points for Squad Cryo or Pull (Field), which are superior vulnerable target obliteration.

Reave is a perfectly good power, don't get me wrong; good damage, and it can strip a lot of targets when evolved.  My issue is it's still a set-up power.  Yes, you need to strip the defenses off to get your targets to health, but what are you going to use to obliterate a target reduced to health?  It's easy to overlook the need to have Cryo/Biotics ready to crush a vulnerable target with, otherwise you gain no special advantage from being on the red bar.  While squadmates do a perfectly good job pumping strips into targets, nothing they can do compares to a 3s recharge Pull/Slam/Throw...


The ammos are really marginal as bonus powers for Shepard; Incendiary, Warp, and Armor Piercing Ammos are all very close to each other in power, and you're paying some rather steep opportunity costs for what are at best very marginal returns.  The only good use for Armor Piercing or Warp Ammo as a bonus power I've seen had Incendiary Ammo evolved to the squad version, with Armor Piercing for a larger self boost.  I'm not convinced that's a good idea by any stretch, however.

[Ravennus]

cxensign wrote...

I'm leaning towards Slam over Reave, at least for the initial choice.

I have to say, for my 2nd Vanguard playthrough I'm considering this as well.

The first time I picked Warp Ammo all the way through.... it was ok, but I never felt I was taking full advantage of it.  That, and I had honestly never even gave Inferno ammo a shot.  I didn't know at the time that the DoT stacked, and that it has such great CC capabilities.

I WOULD take Area Reave, except for what was mentioned elsewhere....
I really love and want Area Pull.  Which means I need to sink at least 3 points into Shockwave as a pre-req.

So Heavy Charge, Champion, Inferno Ammo, Area Pull and Shockwave 2.... that's 43 of my 51.
Impossible to rank Reave up to 4 at that point.  Not just that, but I miss out on 2 points even if I rank it to 3.


Therefore I'll probably go...

Heavy Charge
Champion
Inferno Ammo
Area Pull
Wide Shockwave
Slam 1


Honestly though, I don't see much use for Slam after I get Pull, as they are on the same cooldown... 

[Bozorgmehr]

Vanguards should never ever pick 'active' skills like Reave. The only thing they need is Heavy Charge. Vanguards should never strip enemies' defenses (completely), without defenses enemies will fly all over the place (you don't want that). You want their defenses up, so when charging you can get close enough to fire the Claymore right in their faces. The best ammo for this is AP Tungsten Rounds (+70 % damage against armor and health). Claymore + Tungsten Rounds = instant kill 80-90 % enemies you'll face. Incendiary Ammo isn't useful. It does no additional damage, only damage over time. You want to kill enemies instantly. Cryo Ammo isn't worth the investment (12 skill points).



A vanguard has all the skills he or she needs after acquiring Heavy Charge, Champion and Tungsten Rounds. Combined with the 20% biotic cooldown reduction this means a Vanguard can charge every 3.9 s and the Heavy Charge ability will get your shield up for 4 s. So the only thing a Vanguard should be worried about is to stay alive for 4 s. This isn’t really hard when you get the hang of it. You can charge anything anywhere (including Heavy Mechs, Scions, Harbinger and even the Geth Colossus) except Praetorians (they are easy to kill anyway).

[Spyndel]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Vanguards should never ever pick 'active' skills like Reave. The only thing they need is Heavy Charge. Vanguards should never strip enemies' defenses (completely), without defenses enemies will fly all over the place (you don't want that).

Unless of course, a single Area Reave  would strip the defenses of 1 to 3 enemies instantly, setting them up for an insta kill combo like Pull Field/Warp detonation, and therefore *immediately* removing 1 to 3 pawns from the field, reducing incoming fire, depriving Harbringer of spawns, and freeing you up to charge the remaining foes in safer conditions.


Also, I apologize for backtracking, but earlier in the thread there was some dispute over whether it was better to have your Shep do the pulling, and Samara do the Reaving. One point I like about Shepard Reaving, is the fact that despite the fast cooldown, Pulls from Shep are a delayed effect while waiting for the projectile to cover distance, meanwhile strategically targeted enemies for area effect might move out of position. Pull field from other characters are an intant hit, and conversely Area Reave from Shep is essentially insta-hit as well, unlike his pull.

There is strategic value in being able to pull off the combo nearly instantaneously that I prefer to Shepard's slow moving Pulls.

[Iz Stoik zI]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Vanguards should never ever pick 'active' skills like Reave. The only thing they need is Heavy Charge. Vanguards should never strip enemies' defenses (completely), without defenses enemies will fly all over the place (you don't want that). You want their defenses up, so when charging you can get close enough to fire the Claymore right in their faces. The best ammo for this is AP Tungsten Rounds (+70 % damage against armor and health). Claymore + Tungsten Rounds = instant kill 80-90 % enemies you'll face. Incendiary Ammo isn't useful. It does no additional damage, only damage over time. You want to kill enemies instantly. Cryo Ammo isn't worth the investment (12 skill points).

After reading this, my face became entrenched in my palm for quite a long period of time.

This has been discussed to death already. Inferno Ammo is far better than AP Ammo on a Vanguard. There are a few reasons for this:

1 - The DoT damage from Inferno Ammo is applied IMMEDIATELY to armor, shields, and biotic barriers -- this has been confirmed by the devs. So many people keep insisting that it's always a DoT but it's really not, only against health at which point it doesn't even matter. The damage difference between Inferno Ammo and AP Ammo is 10%, that's it.

2 - A Vanguard that wishes to get Tungsten Ammo AND have Squad Cryo Ammo is forced to waste 3 squad points in Incendiary Ammo to unlock the next tier. This means that you can only max out a total of 4 skills instead of the 5 that a properly specced VG could get. Also, a player going down this road will have 1 spare point left over at the end no matter what they do. Even if you didn't plan on maxing out 5 skills, having 3-4 less points to spend is a definite weakness.

3 - Tungsten Ammo is single target, always. You do 10% more damage with AP Ammo over Inferno Ammo, but you are only affecting your primary target every time you take a shot. Inferno Ammo on the other hand has an extremely useful AoE panic effect on organics. You can shoot at a single target and kill him in virtually the same amount of time as AP Ammo, but as a bonus every other enemy around him will be too busy flailing around on fire to shoot at you. This burning effect even (and often) works on Protected enemies as well. This is the breaking point between the two ammo types -- Inferno offers almost the same damage while granting you survivability by incapacitating your enemies. AP Ammo grants you a measly 10% damage boost while leaving you more open to enemy attacks after a charge AND it forces us to relinquish 4 skill points.

The choice is clear, I'm not going to argue it again. This topic has been beaten to death, and I'm pretty tired of it. Inferno Ammo is superior in every way to Tungsten rounds, there is no other way to cut it. Vanguards don't need a bonus power at all, but the power that we take anyways should compliment the VG's skills, not be inferior replacements.

Done.

[weirdscientist]

Iz Stoik zI wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Vanguards should never ever pick 'active' skills like Reave. The only thing they need is Heavy Charge. Vanguards should never strip enemies' defenses (completely), without defenses enemies will fly all over the place (you don't want that). You want their defenses up, so when charging you can get close enough to fire the Claymore right in their faces. The best ammo for this is AP Tungsten Rounds (+70 % damage against armor and health). Claymore + Tungsten Rounds = instant kill 80-90 % enemies you'll face. Incendiary Ammo isn't useful. It does no additional damage, only damage over time. You want to kill enemies instantly. Cryo Ammo isn't worth the investment (12 skill points).

After reading this, my face became entrenched in my palm for quite a long period of time.

This has been discussed to death already. Inferno Ammo is far better than AP Ammo on a Vanguard. There are a few reasons for this:

1 - The DoT damage from Inferno Ammo is applied IMMEDIATELY to armor, shields, and biotic barriers -- this has been confirmed by the devs. So many people keep insisting that it's always a DoT but it's really not, only against health at which point it doesn't even matter. The damage difference between Inferno Ammo and AP Ammo is 10%, that's it.

2 - A Vanguard that wishes to get Tungsten Ammo AND have Squad Cryo Ammo is forced to waste 3 squad points in Incendiary Ammo to unlock the next tier. This means that you can only max out a total of 4 skills instead of the 5 that a properly specced VG could get. Also, a player going down this road will have 1 spare point left over at the end no matter what they do. Even if you didn't plan on maxing out 5 skills, having 3-4 less points to spend is a definite weakness.

3 - Tungsten Ammo is single target, always. You do 10% more damage with AP Ammo over Inferno Ammo, but you are only affecting your primary target every time you take a shot. Inferno Ammo on the other hand has an extremely useful AoE panic effect on organics. You can shoot at a single target and kill him in virtually the same amount of time as AP Ammo, but as a bonus every other enemy around him will be too busy flailing around on fire to shoot at you. This burning effect even (and often) works on Protected enemies as well. This is the breaking point between the two ammo types -- Inferno offers almost the same damage while granting you survivability by incapacitating your enemies. AP Ammo grants you a measly 10% damage boost while leaving you more open to enemy attacks after a charge AND it forces us to relinquish 4 skill points.

The choice is clear, I'm not going to argue it again. This topic has been beaten to death, and I'm pretty tired of it. Inferno Ammo is superior in every way to Tungsten rounds, there is no other way to cut it. Vanguards don't need a bonus power at all, but the power that we take anyways should compliment the VG's skills, not be inferior replacements.

Done.

Agreed. Still amazed that people are arguing in favor of AP ammo for vanguard. Playstyle is that of being upclose and personal. You need a power that will not only deal huge damage but also incapacitate your enemies, especially after charging into 2-3 enemies. AP does NOT incapacitate. Also, 60% vs 70% damage isn't noticeable when you're shotgunning someone in the gut/face. I can see how that might make a difference in long range firefights, especially when using mantis or widow sniper rifles with limited ammo. Vanguards are all about charging and clearing the field in short order. Speaking of charging, I think it's a good strategy to charge someone with only health. A well-placed heavy charge will send them flying and leave them stunned for several seconds. In the meantime, you can quickly turn around and take out another enemy that has protection. After you kill him, you can focus your attention on the last guy you sent flying, charge in again if that's your fancy, or just shoot him dead since he's only down to health anyway.

Inferno ammo >>>>>>>>> AP ammo for vanguard

Hell, any other bonus power is better than AP ammo for vanguard 

[nofanboy]

Roxlimn wrote...

 nofanboy:

I could not disagree more.  In this game the most valuable powers are those that strip protection.  I don't know how anyone who has played this game on higher difficulty settings think that health stripping abilities are more important than protection stripping abilities.  

If that was the case why is reave and AP/warp ammo considered the best bonus skills on most classes.  If health stripping was more important then everyone would just use shredder ammo, which does more damage to health than any other ammo type.  But no one does, becuse shredder ammo sucks.  The reason is because health can be dealt with so many ways.  Until then you're limited as to what you can do.  I'll use your sentinel as an example.  With an armored or shield enemy you only have two choices, either shoot or use overload/warp.  Once you get that enemy down to health, the number of powers that can kill the enemy doubles.  Now you can also spam throw or cryo blast away. 

How is it that Reave and AP/Warp ammo are considered the best bonus skills on most classes?  Misinformation and hype, partially.  Partially because Reave, AP, and Warp Ammo are ALL powers that are very good to use against Health.  Check it.

Your reasoning is unsound.  Just because Health stripping is important doesn't mean that Shredder Ammo is any good.  In the first place, the additional damage advantage is small, and in the second place, it only affects organics.  If Shredder Ammo did +100% Health damage to all target across the board, you bet your ass I'd use it.

Just because Health can be dealt with in many ways doesn't mean that you should neglect ways to deal with Health, or that the powers that do so are bad or less important.  This is particularly true on difficulty levels that don't sport a great deal of enemy protections, which comprises 3 of the 5 settings in this game.

Warp is not more important than Throw simply because Throw is most effective against Health and Warp most effective against Armor and Barrier (but not Health).  Between them, Throw is still the more important and more powerful power - so much so, in fact, that even rank 1 of Throw compares with rank 4 of Warp.

NO amount of Warping will shut down an opponent well, as it only ever gives about a half second stun on all targets, and is particularly bad against Health targets.  Throw gives you solid insta-kill and fire control on the back half or so of your target's HP.  You only value Warp because it allows you to use Throw afterwards.

As afar as I know reave does the same damage to health as warp.  And since you brought up lower difficulty setting, you should know that on vet and below warp and throw both kill when down to health on most enemies. 

And you're right, I DO value warp more than throw BECAUSE it allows me to throw afterwards. Or pull, or cryo blast, or shockwave, or slam, or dominate, or AI hack...  That's my whole point.  It would be different if classes already didn't come with abilites that effectively deal with health.  I don't need help in health stripping as I already have more options that I need in that department with any class.

You assume that a vanguard or any class isn't really effective enough at killing health so they need a skill that helps in this regard.  This is the flaw I have a problem with. I believe EVERY class has enough base skills that deal effectively with health that a better skill would be to take one that deals with protection that the class has trouble with.  That's my whole point.

Using your argument slam should be the ONLY bonus power to take for ALL classes because of its instant kill on health.  Yeah, try creating a topic about that and see how it flies. 

Modifié par nofanboy, 26 février 2010 - 03:34 .

[nofanboy]

Ravennus wrote...

Honestly though, I don't see much use for Slam after I get Pull, as they are on the same cooldown... 

My point exactly. 

[Roxlimn]

nofanboy:

As afar as I know reave does the same damage to health as warp. And since you brought up lower difficulty setting, you should know that on vet and below warp and throw both kill when down to health on most enemies.

1. Heavy Reave does 40 damage per second for 5.5 seconds - 20 damage more than Heavy Warp. Unstable Warp and Area Reave do similar base damage but Area Reave has native AoE effect, while Unstable Warp has larger, but combo-dependent AoE Effect. Neither Warp version is affected by biotic duration bonuses.



2. Yes, I know. Warp has twice the cool down of Throw, and is thus the less desirable power.

And you're right, I DO value warp more than throw BECAUSE it allows me to throw afterwards. Or pull, or cryo blast, or shockwave, or slam, or dominate, or AI hack... That's my whole point. It would be different if classes already didn't come with abilites that effectively deal with health. I don't need help in health stripping as I already have more options that I need in that department with any class.

That makes no sense. You value Warp more because it's not really all that good on its own? Nonsense. You can always strip defenses with guns. You can't Dominate with a gun.

You assume that a vanguard or any class isn't really effective enough at killing health so they need a skill that helps in this regard. This is the flaw I have a problem with. I believe EVERY class has enough base skills that deal effectively with health that a better skill would be to take one that deals with protection that the class has trouble with. That's my whole point.

So, you think a defense stripping power is better than a killing or controlling power because you're assuming that you already have a killing or controlling power? Makes no sense. Clearly, you value the killing power more because you're assuming it as an a priori assumption.

[nofanboy]

Roxlimn wrote...

That makes no sense. You value Warp more because it's not really all that good on its own? Nonsense. You can always strip defenses with guns. You can't Dominate with a gun.

So, you think a defense stripping power is better than a killing or controlling power because you're assuming that you already have a killing or controlling power? Makes no sense. Clearly, you value the killing power more because you're assuming it as an a priori assumption.

You can strip health with guns too so what your point?  T=

And I don't have to assume anything, as far as powers go, every class at at least one that deals direct damage to health but not every class has one that dealt effective against all protections.  

[Roxlimn]

nofanboy:



You can strip defenses with a gun. You can't Dominate with a gun.

[nofanboy]

Roxlimn wrote...

nofanboy:

You can strip defenses with a gun. You can't Dominate with a gun.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.  It makes no sense at all.  Dominate with a gun?   

[Iosev]

I personally am not seeing much benefit to having Slam. By the time enemies have their defenses stripped, a vanguard should already be charging targets and picking them off one after the other. Slam is nice when its used by Miranda, because she can use it to crowd control a target, while you charge in and kill another enemy, but honestly, I bring along Miranda for her Warp, Overload, and stat buff, not for her slam ability.  I've only played ME 2 on insanity though, so Slam might be nice on lower difficulty levels (where enemies have fewer defenses).

Modifié par arcelonious, 26 février 2010 - 07:12 .

[SmilingMirror]

nofanboy wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

nofanboy:

You can strip defenses with a gun. You can't Dominate with a gun.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.  It makes no sense at all.  Dominate with a gun?   

Dominate as in the power you get from Mornith....please tell me you know who Mornith is....

[Kaiser Shepard]

Ravennus wrote...

cxensign wrote...

I'm leaning towards Slam over Reave, at least for the initial choice.

I have to say, for my 2nd Vanguard playthrough I'm considering this as well.

The first time I picked Warp Ammo all the way through.... it was ok, but I never felt I was taking full advantage of it.  That, and I had honestly never even gave Inferno ammo a shot.  I didn't know at the time that the DoT stacked, and that it has such great CC capabilities.

I WOULD take Area Reave, except for what was mentioned elsewhere....
I really love and want Area Pull.  Which means I need to sink at least 3 points into Shockwave as a pre-req.

So Heavy Charge, Champion, Inferno Ammo, Area Pull and Shockwave 2.... that's 43 of my 51.
Impossible to rank Reave up to 4 at that point.  Not just that, but I miss out on 2 points even if I rank it to 3.


Therefore I'll probably go...

Heavy Charge
Champion
Inferno Ammo
Area Pull
Wide Shockwave
Slam 1


Honestly though, I don't see much use for Slam after I get Pull, as they are on the same cooldown... 

I have to agree that this is indeed pretty much the best Vanguard build, except for having Slam. I'd put that spare point in Barrier, which has more merit as a failsafe or just to quickly recharge yourself. Area Charge is arguably better on the lower difficulties.

[thisisme8]

I know this is a little off-topic because it doesn't deal with just Vanguards, but if enemies have about equal amounts health to defense then why would you put so much emphasis on the very few powers that strip defense and then shoot health with your gun that has a x1 modifier to health as opposed to stripping defenses with your gun (and depending on the gun has a much better modifier towards defense not including ammo powers) and then being able to use any and every power on health (ok, aside from Shield Drain)?

[Arde5643]

arcelonious wrote...

I personally am not seeing much benefit to having Slam. By the time enemies have their defenses stripped, a vanguard should already be charging targets and picking them off one after the other. Slam is nice when its used by Miranda, because she can use it to crowd control a target, while you charge in and kill another enemy, but honestly, I bring along Miranda for her Warp, Overload, and stat buff, not for her slam ability.  I've only played ME 2 on insanity though, so Slam might be nice on lower difficulty levels (where enemies have fewer defenses).

slam's only use for Miranda is to finally let her able to take down husks and unprotected mechs easily rather than having to use weapons to kill them after  stripping down the defenses.