118 réponses à ce sujet

[weirdscientist]

Arde5643 wrote...

arcelonious wrote...

I personally am not seeing much benefit to having Slam. By the time enemies have their defenses stripped, a vanguard should already be charging targets and picking them off one after the other. Slam is nice when its used by Miranda, because she can use it to crowd control a target, while you charge in and kill another enemy, but honestly, I bring along Miranda for her Warp, Overload, and stat buff, not for her slam ability.  I've only played ME 2 on insanity though, so Slam might be nice on lower difficulty levels (where enemies have fewer defenses).

slam's only use for Miranda is to finally let her able to take down husks and unprotected mechs easily rather than having to use weapons to kill them after  stripping down the defenses.

Have you ever seen slam used on a klixen? They're lifted maybe 12 inches before they're slammed. The damage output is the same, but it just looks really funny.

Modifié par weirdscientist, 26 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[sinosleep]

thisisme8 wrote...

I know this is a little off-topic because it doesn't deal with just Vanguards, but if enemies have about equal amounts health to defense then why would you put so much emphasis on the very few powers that strip defense and then shoot health with your gun that has a x1 modifier to health as opposed to stripping defenses with your gun (and depending on the gun has a much better modifier towards defense not including ammo powers) and then being able to use any and every power on health (ok, aside from Shield Drain)?

THIS. I've thought the same for quite some time now. 

[thisisme8]

sinosleep wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

I know this is a little off-topic because it doesn't deal with just Vanguards, but if enemies have about equal amounts health to defense then why would you put so much emphasis on the very few powers that strip defense and then shoot health with your gun that has a x1 modifier to health as opposed to stripping defenses with your gun (and depending on the gun has a much better modifier towards defense not including ammo powers) and then being able to use any and every power on health (ok, aside from Shield Drain)?

THIS. I've thought the same for quite some time now. 

Boggles my mind.

[_Dannok1234]

thisisme8 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

I know this is a little off-topic because it doesn't deal with just Vanguards, but if enemies have about equal amounts health to defense then why would you put so much emphasis on the very few powers that strip defense and then shoot health with your gun that has a x1 modifier to health as opposed to stripping defenses with your gun (and depending on the gun has a much better modifier towards defense not including ammo powers) and then being able to use any and every power on health (ok, aside from Shield Drain)?

THIS. I've thought the same for quite some time now. 

Boggles my mind.

Terry Goodkind says it well in his book
Wizard's First Rule:"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."—Chapter 36, p.397, U.S. hardcover edition

[thisisme8]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Terry Goodkind says it well in his book
Wizard's First Rule:"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."—Chapter 36, p.397, U.S. hardcover edition

I didn't want to say it out loud.  That doesn't mean I was or was not thinking anything of the sort though...

[konfeta]

So, question, why not Dominate for Vanguards? It opens a lot more safe charge targets by being a useful distraction.

[RamsenC]

konfeta wrote...

So, question, why not Dominate for Vanguards? It opens a lot more safe charge targets by being a useful distraction.

The cooldown is too long. You will have to wait a long time after dominating someone before charging. You can be evil and side with Morinth for a cooldown free dominate, but you would be giving up reave of course. I prefer dominate over reave for vanguard, but many people are in love with reave.

[konfeta]

Dominate Cooldown is same as Charge...

[RamsenC]

konfeta wrote...

Dominate Cooldown is same as Charge...

Yea... I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The dominate cooldown would keep you from charging in when the enemy is still dominated. By the time you can charge, the enemy will be back to normal or close depending on rank. I like to use skills to help compliment my charging, rather than be completely separate. 

Modifié par RamsenC, 27 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[cxensign]

Ravennus wrote...

I really love and want Area Pull.  Which means I need to sink at least 3 points into Shockwave as a pre-req.

Pull Field isn't so much better than level 1 Pull that I'd want to give up both Squad Cryo and an evolved bonus power.  If Slam had an AoE evolution, Pull Field would be unplayable.

It's a perfectly good power, it just gets beat up by little numeric problems (the dual stacked prereq and a 51 point cap instead of 53) and Shockwave being terrible.

Honestly though, I don't see much use for Slam after I get Pull, as they are on the same cooldown...

You drop it for Barrier or Reave once you have the points for Pull.

arcelonious wrote...

I personally am not seeing much benefit to having Slam.

Destroys a vulnerable target on a 3s cooldown; fast cooldown does not interfere significantly with Charge.  Instagibs husks and other trash.  Sets up the Warp bomb.  It's a slightly better version of Pull that doesn't require you to waste 3 points in Shockwave.

thisisme8 wrote...

...if enemies have about equal amounts
health to defense then why would you put so much emphasis on the very
few powers that strip defense and then shoot health with your gun that
has a x1 modifier to health as opposed to stripping defenses with your
gun...and then being able to use any and every power on health?

Congratulations, you win at ME2.  The strip effects are good because they let you spike a target down to health, where you can wreck them with throws and frost...if you don't have said throws and frost, there's no particular value to getting a target down to health over continuing to pummel them on armor or shields where you get damage bonuses.

[konfeta]

You can charge twice during duration of Heavy Dominate, though that would come late into the game.

[RamsenC]

konfeta wrote...

You can charge twice during duration of Heavy Dominate, though that would come late into the game.

True on Heavy Dominate, which is why its not the worst choice, but theres still a hefty wait time before you can get to work. It's also not very useful until rank 4 and getting caught off guard after casting dominate could lead to death. Part of the reason I prefer pull is it takes someone out of the battle and I can charge soon after. Pulled enemies usually die since your squad will focus fire them and you can warp detonate. 

Dominate, slam, and neural shock are all viable choices for crowd control before charging, I just prefer pull.

Modifié par RamsenC, 27 février 2010 - 07:21 .

[thisisme8]

cxensign wrote...

thisisme8 wrote...

...if enemies have about equal amounts health to defense then why would you put so much emphasis on the very few powers that strip defense and then shoot health with your gun that has a x1 modifier to health as opposed to stripping defenses with your gun...and then being able to use any and every power on health?

Congratulations, you win at ME2.  The strip effects are good because they let you spike a target down to health, where you can wreck them with throws and frost...if you don't have said throws and frost, there's no particular value to getting a target down to health over continuing to pummel them on armor or shields where you get damage bonuses.

I actually have won at ME2.  Several times.  And while spike damage by spamming Warp/Reave/Overload/Incinerate looks great on paper, and many people believe it to be the only way to play, it doesn't translate the same in-game.

I have 3 cooldowns to manage in the game.  Instead of using powers for spike damage, I'd rather use them for complete control/area domination.  This way, battles can flow from assaults, flanks, and short spurts of defense instead constant battles of attrition.

Don't get me wrong, using powers like Overload against shielded targets is still an excellent option, but it isn't always the best option.

[Iz Stoik zI]

 I do think that we're over-analyzing the game a little bit too much here.

Charge-Shoot-Melee is all you need to know for about 80% of your fights. Some involve having Miranda toss out a Warp and Garrus an Overload. You cross those bridges when you come to them.

Reave is nice but it is by no means necessary... we have very little need for a defense stripping ability that will keep us locked in cooldown mode when we could be charging. Honestly, playing a Vanguard is 30% tactics and 70% common sense. Charge enemies that are behind enemy lines or off to the sides to flank opposition. Do not charge into large groups of enemies. If you're about to die, charge and kill an enemy that is near cover. Charge at heavy weapon specialist opponents as soon as possible. And on it goes.

The Vanguard is all about taking chances. There's no right or wrong way to play, but from my experience it's more fun to play the VG on the edge. My first playthrough was a miserable experience in which I neglected Charge for "safety" and "tactics," used Reave a lot, and ironically I got killed a lot more often -- and this was on Veteran. My second (Insanity) was built around advice in thisisme8's thread and it was a complete blast bull-rushing around the maps and finishing battles faster than anyone else can. I've never had more fun playing either of the Mass Effect games even though I still died more often than my Soldier did.

If you're interested in accomplishing a no-death Insanity run, then plan away. Analyze each situation in excruciating detail. Take your time, strip enemy defenses with Reave, Overload, Warp etc.

But after beating the game a few times and getting a feel for the battlefields, all I need is a second or two to analyze the opposition before beginning my assault -- with a hail mary and a charge. So much awesome.

Modifié par Iz Stoik zI, 27 février 2010 - 08:06 .

[cxensign]

thisisme8 wrote...

Several times.  And while spike damage by spamming Warp/Reave/Overload/Incinerate looks great on paper, and many people believe it to be the only way to play, it doesn't translate the same in-game.

...perhaps you misunderstood me.  I think we agree.  The bio/cryo are more powerful than the nukes, and thus they need to be the focus.  Without the bio/cryo, the nukes are underwhelming, they're just rushing you to health that you can't take advantage of.

It's easy to forget, when faced with armored enemies and offered a bunch of nukes for dealing with those defenses, that the only reason health is so easy to deal with is because bio/cryo destroys it.  If you don't have those available, you're going to have an easier time damaging the defenses than the health, which receives no damage bonuses.

[sipaufade]

bonus talents aren't really needed for the vanguard so i go with warp ammo. not because it's superior right off the bat but it has the potential to be the most damaging ammo upgrade. if combined with a biotic power (i.e. pull, shockwave, or charge) the damage is doubled so if warp ammo is maxed and you have a pulled enemy or a shockwave stunned enemy or the obvious charge stunned enemy that 50% damage is really 100% damage. put that on top of 50% weapon damage, 10-13% armor bonus to weapon damage, miranda's 15% weapon damage bonus, if your going against sheilded eneimies another 50%, you looking at 235% increase in weapon damage as apossed to 190-200%. i oneshot a lot of things with simitars for crying outload with warp ammo

[Iosev]

When your character is already at max level and you already have all of the weapons available to you, it's easy to forget how beneficial stripping defense powers is on the insanity difficulty level. Sure, it's rather easy to take out defenses with the tempest or hand cannon, or simply obliterate a target with the claymore, but you don't start the game with those weapons if it's your first playthrough as a vanguard.



In my opinion, Reave is a good talent for a beginning vanguard. Since charging effectively is a lot harder when your vanguard is still low, and you haven't upgraded your weapons yet, a defense-stripping power is really beneficial. However, once your character is maxed out, a vanguard does just fine without any bonus powers (inferno ammo, squad cryo ammo, heavy charge, champion, etc.).

[Arde5643]

Don't forget energy drain as well - definitely a very useful bonus ability in the early stages of the game.

[shai-hulud-lama]

i used the geth shield...i found it very usefull on insanity.