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[Time Spiral]

Hey, everyone.

A thread in the NO SPOILERS forum got me thinking, and it requires massive spoilers to discuss.

**The Following contains end-game SPOILERS**
**The Following contains end-game SPOILERS**

The purpose of the Wardens is to absorb the essence of the ArchDemon upon the moment of physical death. So, the behavior of the ArchDemon is to 'find a new host' when the host-body dies. The requirements are the new host must have Darkspawn taint, or qualities. So ... It would stand to reason that darkspawn would qualify as a host, right?

It could even be reasoned that a Darkspawn would be an ideal host, even more so than a partially tainted Grey Warden, right?

It just seems a little loose that their entire plan requires the essence of the ArchDemon to choose the Grey Warden as a host upon death. I mean, is the ArchDemon (AD) acting autonomously at this point (after physical death)? Is it the AD's essence that is animating the body of the giant purple dragon? It just seems to me like choosing the entity that just killed it would be an odd choice for the mastermind behind the Darkspawn invasion.

[side note] From what I can tell, the only thing required to be a Grey Warden is to survive the drinking of a small amount of Darkspawn blood. No real special training is involved. Now I'm talking 'special' qualities. Obviously you have to be inducted into the order, and have to share philosophical outlooks and be driven by the order's motivation. But, besides these technicalities, couldn't anybody that doesn't immediately die from the taint be considered a Grey Warden? I'm just trying to find what makes the Grey Warden such a special thing. One of those special things be able to attracte the essence of the Blight's commander into an apparent suicide move ...

The whole ending sequence feels weak to me, partly because of what is discussed above. Now, assuming Morrigan is SUPER fertile, and just happens to be ovulating on the exact day they try and fight the AD, why on earth [sic] would the AD's essence choose a 12-hour old, possibly fertilized egg as a host!? Isn't it supposed to be the commander of the Darkspawn Army?



I know there is a camp that says "who cares, its a game ...". This thread is not for that camp. This thread is for people who like to absorb the fiction, and discuss the works they're currently experiencing, or have recently experienced.

[Vicious]

A wizard did it.

[mousestalker]

Part of the ritual might be not only ensuring the fertilization of an egg, but also making it attractive to the soul of a god. Flemeth is shown to have the ability to mask or counterfeit the darkspawn taint very early in the game.

[Time Spiral]

mousestalker wrote...

.... Flemeth is shown to have the ability to mask or counterfeit the darkspawn taint very early in the game.

Maybe I missed that part. What are you talking about? And then, how would that have an effect on attracting the sould of the AD? That doesn't explain whether or not the AD can think - as an essence - and why he would chose a fertilized egg, and not any of the thousands of eligible hosts within a few clicks of his death.

[Sandtigress]

Time Spiral wrote...

The purpose of the Wardens is to absorb the essence of the ArchDemon upon the moment of physical death. So, the behavior of the ArchDemon is to 'find a new host' when the host-body dies. The requirements are the new host must have Darkspawn taint, or qualities. So ... It would stand to reason that darkspawn would qualify as a host, right?

It could even be reasoned that a Darkspawn would be an ideal host, even more so than a partially tainted Grey Warden, right?

It just seems a little loose that their entire plan requires the essence of the ArchDemon to choose the Grey Warden as a host upon death. I mean, is the ArchDemon (AD) acting autonomously at this point (after physical death)? Is it the AD's essence that is animating the body of the giant purple dragon? It just seems to me like choosing the entity that just killed it would be an odd choice for the mastermind behind the Darkspawn invasion.

Riordan says that the Archdemon is drawn to the closest tainted vessel, I believe.  Thus the Warden would be the most obvious choice, unless, like in some playthroughs, you have that random shriek standing right there.  That would actually have been a rather fun, if annoying, addition to the game - if you had any darkspawn too close the archdemon could respawn and you'd have to fight it all over again.  

[side note] From what I can tell, the only thing required to be a Grey Warden is to survive the drinking of a small amount of Darkspawn blood. No real special training is involved. Now I'm talking 'special' qualities. Obviously you have to be inducted into the order, and have to share philosophical outlooks and be driven by the order's motivation. But, besides these technicalities, couldn't anybody that doesn't immediately die from the taint be considered a Grey Warden? I'm just trying to find what makes the Grey Warden such a special thing. One of those special things be able to attracte the essence of the Blight's commander into an apparent suicide move ...

No, what's required is to survive a MASSIVE amount of taint - that's why the darkspawn blood you collect has to be supplemented either with magic or with a drop of archdemon blood.  A small amount of taint would turn you into a ghoul, provided you survived.  A Warden must survive a large amount of taint to then become immune to it.

Also, its kind of unlikely that anyone who was not a skilled fighter would make it close enough to be near the archdemon to count, so the Wardens recruit only the most skilled.  There's also probably some merit to being physically or mentally strong when it comes to overcoming the taint in the first place.

The whole ending sequence feels weak to me, partly because of what is discussed above. Now, assuming Morrigan is SUPER fertile, and just happens to be ovulating on the exact day they try and fight the AD, why on earth [sic] would the AD's essence choose a 12-hour old, possibly fertilized egg as a host!? Isn't it supposed to be the commander of the Darkspawn Army?

Morrigan uses dark magic, akin to blood magic, to assure that fertilization occurs.  As for why the baby and not the Warden who slew the Archdemon, that one is a little less certain.  Perhaps its part of the ritual, perhaps there's something about this tainted, soul-less vessel that is more "attractive" to the archdemon soul than a human or a darkspawn.  That is one point that we're left to speculate about, but it obviously works for whatever reason.

[mousestalker]

Right after you acquire Morrigan as a companion, but before you leave the area you can ask her questions that are not available anywhere else. My response comes from one of her answers.

[krylo]

The AD obviously doesn't think after its death. Its essence just reflexively leaps to the closest tainted body.



Morrigan's Ritual, however, is, simply, Magic. There's no explanation for how she can force it to fly to her belly even if you leave her at the gates far away from where the archdemon is slain. It's an ancient blood magic ritual, and that's that.

[Sandtigress]

Time Spiral wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

.... Flemeth is shown to have the ability to mask or counterfeit the darkspawn taint very early in the game.

Maybe I missed that part. What are you talking about? And then, how would that have an effect on attracting the sould of the AD? That doesn't explain whether or not the AD can think - as an essence - and why he would chose a fertilized egg, and not any of the thousands of eligible hosts within a few clicks of his death.

When you ask Morrigan about getting out of the swamp as you leave Flemeth's, she mentions that her mother has given the darkspawn "something else to smell" instead of Alistair, who the darkspawn would be able to sense.

[Jaulen]

I had wondered that also, why, the AD essence would decide to go wandering about and find a newly pregnant Morrigan to infiltrate (even then after only 12 hours is still just a mass of rapidly dividing cells, looks like a golfball) instead of deciding to take over one of the numerous darkspawn that are between the AD and the Morrigan cell-cluster (assuming Morrigan isn't at the top of the tower with you).



PLUS, it has been mentioned in other threads (by David G if I recall), that the cell-cluster wouldn't be tainted, since the taint (from the male genetic donor) wouldn't cross the placental barrier. SO, either Morrigan is already tainted (which would then make her gettging pregnant more difficult) or whatever magic fertility rite she's learned has somehow duplicated for a short bit the taint to attract the AD essence. And maybe she installed some magic taint beacon to get the AD essence to home in on her.



I *might* be able to reason why the AD would go for the GW who killed it instead of a nearby darkspawn 1) it doesn't KNOW that taking over a GW would mean it's destruction, since all the Old Gods are asleep and only seem to get woken up one ata a time, and there doesn't seem to be any (at this point) intelligent Darkspawn 2) the GW is RIGHT there 3) tehe GW has also been exposed to AD blood, lyrium, darkspawn blod among other things in a magical ritual.....



I have just learned to shake my head at this point and think "Ooookay. Just ignore. Time for suspension of disbelief" Especially the magical ritual part, that just makes no sense to me.

[Time Spiral]

So far so good ...



Anybody else want to chime in?



So far, for a nice RECAP:



1. Small sip of DS blood equals a MASSIVE dose

2. The demon-baby-god-beacon works because of magic

3. The essence of the AD is autonomous ... which arises the curious question of how it came to be in a massively powerful purple dragon, and not say ... a Darkspawn Beetle : /

[mousestalker]

There is also archdemon blood in the joining potion, as well as lyrium. Probably other stuff as well.

As for the AD, it was a dragon to begin with. The old gods are all dragons. 

Maybe the way to really stop the Blights once and for all is to put Schmooples through the Grey Warden Joining and see to it that it is closest to the AD when it dies. Either Schmooples dies, which is good (no more annoying nugs in the camp) or the AD takes it over and squeaks, evilly. The entire darkspawn horde would then begin looking for bugs and garbage to feed their new god.

Modifié par mousestalker, 24 février 2010 - 06:52 .

[Reaverwind]

Time Spiral wrote...

So far so good ...

Anybody else want to chime in?

So far, for a nice RECAP:

1. Small sip of DS blood equals a MASSIVE dose
2. The demon-baby-god-beacon works because of magic
3. The essence of the AD is autonomous ... which arises the curious question of how it came to be in a massively powerful purple dragon, and not say ... a Darkspawn Beetle : /

1. Small sip of magically-enhanced DS blood equals massive dose. Alistair mentions that what recruits drink is difficult to prepare, and requires lyrium. Riordan also mentions AD blood is needed to make it work.

[Reaverwind]

mousestalker wrote...

There is also archdemon blood in the joining potion, as well as lyrium. Probably other stuff as well.

As for the AD, it was a dragon to begin with. The old gods are all dragons. 

Maybe the way to really stop the Blights once and for all is to put Schmooples through the Grey Warden Joining and see to it that it is closest to the AD when it dies. Either Schmooples dies, which is good (no more annoying nugs in the camp) or the AD takes it over and squeaks, evilly. The entire darkspawn horde would then begin looking for bugs and garbage to feed their new god.

ROFLMAO Damnit - stop making me spew my beverages!

[UberuceIAm]

My take on it is that the power of the Archdemon comes from a source in the Fade, presumably somewhere in the Black City, but the soul of the Archdemon is trapped in the material world.



It's got a whacking great big chunk of power back home in the Fade, but unless it's in a tainted host, it can't access it, so it's hopelessly weak and disoriented after its current body is slain. It would see tainted bodies as beacons of warmth and sustainence so it would mindlessly home in like a starving drunkard towards a huge pile of bacon sandwiches.



Riordan said the Grey Wardens drank not just darkspawn blood, but Archdemon blood. Thusly, their pile of bacon sandwiches has lettuce and cherry tomatoes in, and the bread is lightly toasted. Even the most wobbly of boozehounds can tell the difference.



What the Dark Ritual does is make the embryo into a huge pile of full Englishes. No competition. It'll seek that out from miles away.



Because the Archdemon's a mewling kitten when inbetween hosts, it needs the Riordan-mentioned empty soulless vessel so it has no resistance when it invades the body. Darkspawn fit that bill nicely. The Archdemon snuggles up and then into to the nearest tainted demon body and the 1.21 gigawatts of evil Fade juice comes down the wire and it promptly begins turning into another dragon-looking beastie.



A Grey Warden fights back, so when the huge chunk of power comes flooding in, which it does moments after the Archdemon's soul mindlessly blunders into it, it's not controlled in any way because the Archdemon's too busy being stomped on by the much stronger Grey Warden soul which is doing the Gran Torino 'get off my lawn' bit with much gusto. The body goes boom and the soul of the Archdemon gets fried with it.



Morrigan Junior's embryonic soul is about as weak and malleable as the Archdemon's, so the two end up blending into a mix of each other. Part of that compromise is that the taint is removed and the connection to the Fade powerstation cut off, but by that point the tiny wee golfball of cells has already taken in a gargantaun amount of mystical power.

[Reaverwind]

Uberuce - your colorful explanation is the best I've heard yet!

Modifié par Reaverwind, 24 février 2010 - 07:13 .

[Ulicus]

Time Spiral wrote...

The whole ending sequence feels weak to me, partly because of what is discussed above. Now, assuming Morrigan is SUPER fertile, and just happens to be ovulating on the exact day they try and fight the AD, why on earth [sic] would the AD's essence choose a 12-hour old, possibly fertilized egg as a host!? Isn't it supposed to be the commander of the Darkspawn Army?

It feels weak because you didn't pay attention.

The Archdemon's soul doesn't "choose" its next vessel, it is drawn to the nearest tainted vessel. The whole point of Morrigan's ritual is that the newly conceived child - as a result of having been conceived as a part of the ritual - acts as a beacon for the Archdemon's soul above and beyond all other tainted creatures, drawing it into itself and overriding the normal process of proximity.

So, in answer to your title question, this plot point isn't REMOTELY weak.

[OgrynFlesh]

I'm unsure how I would feel if my character winds up coming back to life in the wisehat fortress tomb with all the fantastical powers of an old god... Naturally the Grey Wardens would have to at least *try* to kill him. Huh, just glad the Ferelden's didn't get to burn the body.

[Time Spiral]

Very good!



Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks guys!

[DJ0000]

I vote for UberuseIAm's explaination to replace the explaination in the game. That would be so much better if Morrigan explained it to you that way.

[Aynslie]

UberuceIAm wrote...

My take on it is that the power of the Archdemon comes from a source in the Fade, presumably somewhere in the Black City, but the soul of the Archdemon is trapped in the material world.

It's got a whacking great big chunk of power back home in the Fade, but unless it's in a tainted host, it can't access it, so it's hopelessly weak and disoriented after its current body is slain. It would see tainted bodies as beacons of warmth and sustainence so it would mindlessly home in like a starving drunkard towards a huge pile of bacon sandwiches.

Riordan said the Grey Wardens drank not just darkspawn blood, but Archdemon blood. Thusly, their pile of bacon sandwiches has lettuce and cherry tomatoes in, and the bread is lightly toasted. Even the most wobbly of boozehounds can tell the difference.

What the Dark Ritual does is make the embryo into a huge pile of full Englishes. No competition. It'll seek that out from miles away.

Because the Archdemon's a mewling kitten when inbetween hosts, it needs the Riordan-mentioned empty soulless vessel so it has no resistance when it invades the body. Darkspawn fit that bill nicely. The Archdemon snuggles up and then into to the nearest tainted demon body and the 1.21 gigawatts of evil Fade juice comes down the wire and it promptly begins turning into another dragon-looking beastie.

A Grey Warden fights back, so when the huge chunk of power comes flooding in, which it does moments after the Archdemon's soul mindlessly blunders into it, it's not controlled in any way because the Archdemon's too busy being stomped on by the much stronger Grey Warden soul which is doing the Gran Torino 'get off my lawn' bit with much gusto. The body goes boom and the soul of the Archdemon gets fried with it.

Morrigan Junior's embryonic soul is about as weak and malleable as the Archdemon's, so the two end up blending into a mix of each other. Part of that compromise is that the taint is removed and the connection to the Fade powerstation cut off, but by that point the tiny wee golfball of cells has already taken in a gargantaun amount of mystical power.

I think you summed it up very well!! 

[Indistinct_Void]

It's important to remember that, at this point, the majority of truths behind the Darkspawn, their origins, etc. is left intentionally unanswered or ambiguous. So, certain questions can only be answered in good faith with "wait and see."

[DPSSOC]

Time Spiral wrote...

3. The essence of the AD is autonomous ... which arises the curious question of how it came to be in a massively powerful purple dragon, and not say ... a Darkspawn Beetle : /

Because the essence of the AD doesn't find a Dragon it is a Dragon.  Accepted lore is that the Arch Demons are tainted Old Gods, this would seem to be confirmed by Morrigan's ritual (why would Flemmeth plan this if she wasn't sure she'd be getting an Old God out of it).  They taint the Old God (which were Dragons) and it becomes an Arch Demon.

[guytza]

One interesting thing, The old gods appeared in the forms of dragons and are put to hibernation deep in the ground as dragons. the darkspawn tainted them as dragons so they arose as Archdemon Dragons.....but no one says that once they body hop to the next souless vessel they become another dragon. Say it jumped into a Shriek, it might become a bigger nastier shriek with additional powers. Or an Ogre.....now that would suck.



Also, the 'archdemon' when it breaks loose may not be an 'archdemon', it may be the old god. It only becomes an Archdemon again once it hops into the nearest compatible tainted host and gets reinfected. Perhaps its not the Soul jumping from body to body as much as the taint 'throwing' it.



I do like Uberaces description of events....but it makes me hungry for a sammich.





As for Morrigan, at first I figured it was like a redirection. The soul goes jumping for the warden and then the trap goes off and sucks the soul into the prepared clean vessel like a magic hoover vacuum with a hemi engine add-on. But it doesnt work if Alistair does the dirty deed wading in the swamp witch waters and then the PC goes stabbity stabbity on the dragon.....

[RavenOryon]

Some good theories in here

I'm also of the mindset that some aspect of her ritual is designed to act as a beacon for the AD's essence making her newly conceived child the strongest attractor for it.



Loved the food explaination though lol

[Time Spiral]

This is the exact type of discussion I was looking for.


What sparked the question of mine, was another thread, and I haven't played the game since I beat it. So yes, some of the finer details of the end-game sequence have been overcome by the blur of life.

Things that have been reinforced:

• The AD's essence transfer is based on proximity.
  The AD's a freaking God though, right? I know if I were a God I'd probably pick a more efficient way of transfering my essence in the face of ultimate destruction.
  
• Morrigan's actually a LOT more powerful than she leads on ...
  The Flemeth thing is something I did not experience too much in the game, to my dismay. Since I had Morrigan in my group the entire time, when I revisited the Hut, there was no Flemeth to be seen. So I missed out on a lot of stuff I guess. So Morrigan has developed a plan that can influence the raw essence of a God, and trap it in her sack of rapidly dividing cells ... Where was she durring all the other Blights! The GW's just got stright SHOWN UP.

I'm currently in the process of reviewing the first draft in a new book series that I'm writing, and part of the process is finding all the holes and weaknesses in both the lore, and the various plot lines. One of the ways I tune my skills is to open discussions about other pieces of fiction and delve into with a community.

I wonder how many times Gaider and his crew went through this story, and ripped it to shreds, to build it back up? I know my first draft is getting run through the guantlet right now, big time!

Thanks again, everyone who has participated thus far.

Modifié par Time Spiral, 25 février 2010 - 02:55 .