171 réponses à ce sujet

[HeavyTankZA]

pointless thread is pointless

google and look up suspension of disbelief...

it's a game folks

Modifié par HeavyTankZA, 25 février 2010 - 07:09 .

[didymos1120]

Lambu1 wrote...
you're right except for the above.  a black hole's gravity is several orders of magnitude greater than the star that form it.   if it were the same then light could escape,  

Er, no. Well, sorta.  The field is way more intense if you're up nice and close, but outside the event horizon, it "looks" like any other gravity well to another object.  I.e., the weird effects like light-trapping are a function of the insane density, mainly, but the total mass of the black hole is actually going to be less than the original star (any star big enough to form one will have gone super/hypernova before collapsing, and that means blowing off a huge quantity of matter).  And total mass is all that matters when calculating the force of attraction on a (relatively) distant body. Most of the time, we treat (mathematically) any source of gravity as a point-source, 'cause it's close enough for most purposes.  So, replace our sun with a singularity of equal mass, and everything just merrily orbits along (while we freeze to death, of course).

[FataliTensei]

atheelogos wrote...

Trenrade wrote...

So I couldn't help but notice when you go through the O4 relay to fight the collectors the black hole is letting light escape, in all actuality this is scientifically impossible.

Never heard of quasar I take it

Have you never heard of an accretion disk, EDI mentioned it

Black holes spew out energy that gives off light, radiation, etc. right around their event horizon, once something passes then even horizon then it cannot escape the gravity of the black hole and that's where no light can escape and wee "see" the black hole

[didymos1120]

HeavyTankZA wrote...

it's a game folks

Wait, it's not real? WHY DIDN'T ANYONE TELL ME!!111one!




So anyway: yeah, and?  Some people just like discussing how plausible fictional stuff is. In fact, that's a big part of the attraction of SF in the first place.  Also, strictly speaking, just about every damn thread on here is pointless if that's the criterion we're gonna use. My advice?  Read something else, maybe?

[didymos1120]

Lambu1 wrote...

apparently neither have you

A quasi-stellar radio source (quasar) is a very energetic and distant galaxy with an active galactic nucleus.

Yeah, but most are thought to actually be (relatively) dense regions surrounding supermassive black holes in the center of distant galaxies. That said, I really doubt that's what we're seeing in ME2 though.  The game specifically mentions the core is full of black holes.  Nothing was ever said about going to the actual center of the galaxy.  The Collectors just hung out near some random singularity.

[Llandaryn]

didymos1120 wrote...

Also, strictly speaking, just about every damn thread on here is pointless

What, even the 652 "Tali" threads?! Say it ain't so!

[Lambu1]

didymos1120 wrote...
"Er, no. Well, sorta.  The field is way more intense if you're up nice and close, but outside the event horizon, it "looks" like any other gravity well to another object.  I.e., the weird effects like light-trapping are a function of the insane density, mainly, but the total mass of the black hole is actually going to be less than the original star (any star big enough to form one will have gone super/hypernova before collapsing, and that means blowing off a huge quantity of matter).  And total mass is all that matters when calculating the force of attraction on a (relatively) distant body. Most of the time, we treat (mathematically) any source of gravity as a point-source, 'cause it's close enough for most purposes.  So, replace our sun with a singularity of equal mass, and everything just merrily orbits along (while we freeze to death, of course). "

i stand corrected, after going back and rereading, i was misinterpreting the info

you are indeed strong in Schwartz

edit:as for the quasar part, it is gererally defined as part of an active galaxy.  current theory says active galaxies tend to be so energetic  that nothing could survive in them.

Modifié par Lambu1, 26 février 2010 - 01:15 .

[Rabid Rob3]

adam_grif wrote...
Convergent
evolution explains why intelligent species might be similar in those
respects to a human (tool use needs human like hands, intelligence
requires big heads, etc etc), but the really suspension-of-disbelief
shattering ones are the Asari, who evolved to be able to have sex with
any sentient species at all, and are so exactly physiologically identical to humans that they can and do wear human armors with no problems. The spaceboobs on the Asari are particularly grating.

Yeah, something to do with a recent population bottleneck in our past. The excuse also set off my BS detector.

We actually have quite a few examples of convergent evolution here on Earth, I think everyone is familiar with sharks and whales, especially the small ones, there is an excellent example of convergent evolution.  Convergent species cannot help but be funhouse mirror images of each other.  The way they sense their environment is radically different, their brains are radically different in size, and many of their behaviors are also radically different.  Now, the Stat Police will correctly say that until we explore a statistically significant portion of the galaxy, we really can't make an accurate estimate on this, but anything that looks like a reskinned human (Asari, Turians, Drell, most of sci-fi) is fabulously improbable, while the warped humaniforms (Salarian, Krogan) is just really quite unlikely. 

didymos1120 wrote...
Right...and the other races have simply taken that somewhat further than humanity.  If you consider their histories and reproductive biologies (at least those we know something about), it's not really that odd.  Asari: no sex (not in the gamete-meets-gamete sense. Yes, their "mating" seems to induce mutations somehow, but at what rate?).  Salarians:  tiny number of females, small fraction of males allowed to breed. The vast majority of them never pass on their genes to any offspring. Krogan: enormous artificial bottleneck forcibly applied by Genophage and disproportionate mortality rate.  Quarians: another artificial bottleneck, this time forcibly applied by artificial intelligence, coupled with strict population controls.   Drell: tiny fraction saved by Hanar. I.e., another bottleneck.  Vorcha: basically, their unusual genetics have practically frozen them evolutionarily speaking. 

We don't really know much about the other races, so we don't know why their diversity is lower, but it's hardly implausible as any number of genetic mechanisms or historical circumstances could explain it.  It also pays to keep in mind that, in absolute terms, the differences might not be all that great between humans and other races.  That and it seems clear that it's not a case of every other race having the exact same level of diversity.  It's clearly a scale, with Vorcha likely being the least diverse, humans the most.  Who knows?  Maybe Turians are just a little behind us in second place.

Let me clarify:  Through the power of Civilization, we have create a vast human population, both in number and geographical spread, and it is remarkably effective at self homogenizing.  Actually, I feel I should use the term Domestication instead of Civilization, since recent studies into the effects of Domestication show a similar homogenizing effect to the genome, but also how superficial surface trait difference appear solely to phenogenitc difference - in other words, we can look quite different using the same genome because physical environmental changes allow more genes to express themselves and give us cosmetic differences.  Which is why really different looking dogs can interbreed.  Again, the Stat Police will say we can't extrapolate without some real aliens to compare with, but I do think our own amazing unintentional self homogenization suggests that genetic varients of a Civilized species won't appear until remote (Space) colonies with little interaction with the parent species can occur.  Although when we start actively messing around with our DNA, all bets are off!

[max_ai]

didymos1120 wrote...

Lambu1 wrote...
you're right except for the above.  a black hole's gravity is several orders of magnitude greater than the star that form it.   if it were the same then light could escape,  

Er, no. Well, sorta.  The field is way more intense if you're up nice and close, but outside the event horizon, it "looks" like any other gravity well to another object.  I.e., the weird effects like light-trapping are a function of the insane density, mainly, but the total mass of the black hole is actually going to be less than the original star (any star big enough to form one will have gone super/hypernova before collapsing, and that means blowing off a huge quantity of matter).  And total mass is all that matters when calculating the force of attraction on a (relatively) distant body. Most of the time, we treat (mathematically) any source of gravity as a point-source, 'cause it's close enough for most purposes.  So, replace our sun with a singularity of equal mass, and everything just merrily orbits along (while we freeze to death, of course).

NO. Please stop this. PLEASE!

Point mass can't describe black holes at all (Schwarzschild type comes closest to being described this way, and even then there are inconsistencies).
Orbiting around black holes is NOTHING like orbiting around regular stars (in all cases except Schwarzschild type, and even then it's not the same, it just comes close in some situations).

Please, please stop this. It's a game. Sci-fi. Whatever you call it. It's not science and has nothing to do with science. There is no connection whatsoever with science other than names of some phenomena.
If anyone wants to learn about black holes I suggest that person to attend to GR courses in a university. This subject cannot be described here on the forums in a suitable way, and there is no real need to!

[deaths origin]

Vaenier wrote...

Its a white hole. Its what black holes connect to. [/joke][/sarcasm][/badscience]

Dude white holes are on the extreem edge of theory.  Besides the matter that the white hole would be spewing out would just form into another black hole closeby

[Mal_Luck]

Those who have seen Doctor Who, may recall the episode The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit, there was a planet orbiting a black hole... and the black hole looked exactly like it does in ME2.



...Also the answer about it's the stuff around the black hole, not the black hole itself.

[lost lupus]

piff shep reentry is easly explained 
one of the other crew that got thrown into the planet had the evro protected suit on thus giving shepard the magic all for one and one for all bonus of heat protection re friction

first shep is a boitic ME1
full points in barrier
plus full points in his hard suit thus giving it one hell of a mass effect field that sort of protected him
and he activated statis just before hitting the ground thus limiting his physical damage

soldier shep his (heavy armour) hard suit obviously used all 99 med-gel packs plus the regen abilty really helped minimise the damage plus he casted immunity just before hitting

if your not a soldier or biotic shep dies............ sucks but proven fact bioware are working on a patch

as the planet had no atmosphere entry wasnt such a **** on him coming down
plus with no atmosphere decaying is slow the whole freezed dried thing

when cerebrus picked him up his helmet snaped off and rolled away a statis field kept him from falling to pieces as one of the recovery team members was a botic

as for memory loss luckely cerebrus has an animous they accessed the genetic memory from shep's DNA and inprinted as his brain was restored unfortunetly the stuff about the beacon and the cypher was corrupted and so it was lost.................

shep has also forgotten how to use the 3 seashells

Modifié par lost lupus, 25 février 2010 - 07:58 .

[Scottthesnow]

lost lupus wrote...

piff shep reentry is easly explained 
one of the other crew that got thrown into the planet had the evro protected suit on thus giving shepard the magic all for one and one for all bonus of heat protection re friction

first shep is a boitic ME1
full points in barrier
plus full points in his hard suit thus giving it one hell of a mass effect field that sort of protected him
and he activated statis just before hitting the ground thus limiting his physical damage

soldier shep his (heavy armour) hard suit obviously used all 99 med-gel packs plus the regen abilty really helped minimise the damage plus he casted immunity just before hitting

if your not a soldier or biotic shep dies............ sucks but proven fact bioware are working on a patch

as the planet had no atmosphere entry wasnt such a **** on him coming down
plus with no atmosphere decaying is slow the whole freezed dried thing

when cerebrus picked him up his helmet snaped off and rolled away a statis field kept him from falling to pieces as one of the recovery team members was a botic

as for memory loss luckely cerebrus has an animous they accessed the genetic memory from shep's DNA and inprinted as his brain was restored unfortunetly the stuff about the beacon and the cypher was corrupted and so it was lost.................

shep has also forgotten how to use the 3 seashells

Not to mention that he is level 60, and has far more hitpoints than the Normandy!

[didymos1120]

Lambu1 wrote...
edit: the black hole part, as for the quasar part, it is gererally defined as part of an active galaxy.  current theory says active galaxies tend to be so energetic  that nothing could survive in them.

Yeah, you're right.  Nevermind.  It's still a counterexample to the "there shouldn't be no light" thing, but otherwise kinda useless here. Oh well.

[didymos1120]

deaths origin wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Its a white hole. Its what black holes connect to. [/joke][/sarcasm][/badscience]

Dude white holes are on the extreem edge of theory.  Besides the matter that the white hole would be spewing out would just form into another black hole closeby

Hence the "[/joke][/sarcasm][/badscience]" at the end there.

[atheelogos]

Lambu1 wrote...

apparently neither have you

"A quasi-stellar radio source (quasar) is a very energetic and distant galaxy with an active galactic nucleus."

this in in our galaxy, not some distant far away place

I wasn't talking about our galaxy. You said its impossible for light to get away. I was just giving an example of how matter gets away from black holes all the time.

[didymos1120]

Rabid Rob3 wrote...
Again, the Stat Police will say we can't extrapolate without some real aliens to compare with, but I do think our own amazing unintentional self homogenization suggests that genetic varients of a Civilized species won't appear until remote (Space) colonies with little interaction with the parent species can occur.  Although when we start actively messing around with our DNA, all bets are off!

I'd argue that in ME, genetic exchange and homogenization are the norm given the technology of normal FTL plus the relay network.  Not to mention all the other factors of history and biology involved.  In fact, I think one of the novels says something about this.  I'll flip through 'em later.  Anyway, I still say it's plausible.  I'd rephrase it, however, and say that we're not so much the most diverse as we are the least homogenized (for now).  Eventually, I think we'd end up just as genetically "boring" as the other species.

[Lambu1]

if you'll notice i also corrected myself. and a better example would be a pulsar with plasma jets longer than it galactic diameter being thrown off what is likely a monsterous supermassive black hole

edit: stupid post is stupid, kept for posterity

Modifié par Lambu1, 26 février 2010 - 01:18 .

[atheelogos]

FataliTensei wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

Trenrade wrote...

So I couldn't help but notice when you go through the O4 relay to fight the collectors the black hole is letting light escape, in all actuality this is scientifically impossible.

Never heard of quasar I take it

Have you never heard of an accretion disk, EDI mentioned it

Black holes spew out energy that gives off light, radiation, etc. right around their event horizon, once something passes then even horizon then it cannot escape the gravity of the black hole and that's where no light can escape and wee "see" the black hole

Yes thanks for stating the obvious.

[didymos1120]

max_ai wrote...
NO. Please stop this. PLEASE!

Point mass can't describe black holes at all (Schwarzschild type comes closest to being described this way, and even then there are inconsistencies).

Why do you think I said "(relatively) distant" and "most of the time"? Because I was simplifying, maybe? I never said they should be treated as such in every case, or for every singularity.  I don't pretend to know all the nuances, but for most purposes, what I said was perfectly fine. The main point was: total mass generally is the main factor when it comes to gravity.  Also: settle down, it's OK.  It's just a forum discussion.  Physics will be just fine.

Modifié par didymos1120, 25 février 2010 - 08:35 .

[atheelogos]

Lambu1 wrote...

if you'll notice i also corrected myself. and a better example would be a pulsar with plasma jets longer than it galactic diameter being thrown off what is likely a monsterous supermassive black hole

I think quasar is an appropriate example. It's a natural phenomena that shows how matter can escape the pull of a black hole. Not once it passes a certain point of course but it is possible.

Modifié par atheelogos, 25 février 2010 - 08:47 .

[Kenshen]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Actually, the light is brightest at the edge of the black hole before it crosses into the point of no return.

The light you are seeing hasn't made it into the black hole yet, but is swirling faster and faster towards its death, brightening as it speeds up.

It is the gas that is being heated due to increasing speed and pressure that we see.  As to why the space junk isn't being pulled in is because it is either far enough away to avoid the gravitational pull or is being protected by the collector mass affect field.

Interesting that from what we have been able to learn about our own galaxy most don't think our center lights up like that.  We have what is called a quiet center or calm black hole.  We have seen this in other galaxies which look kinda like a donut that is missing its center.  The galaxies that light up like we see are considered to be young galaxies.  Either way if it wasn't for these massive black holes then galaxies won't form and the universe would be a dark lonely place.

[didymos1120]

aryon69 wrote...

It is the gas that is being heated due to increasing speed and pressure that we see.  As to why the space junk isn't being pulled in is because it is either far enough away to avoid the gravitational pull or is being protected by the collector mass affect field.

Or it's in a stable orbit (don't freak out, max_ai).

[Lambu1]

atheelogos wrote...

Lambu1 wrote...

if you'll notice i also corrected myself. and a better example would be a pulsar with plasma jets longer than it galactic diameter being thrown off what is likely a monsterous supermassive black hole

I think quasar is an appropriate example. It's a natural phenomena that shows how matter can escape the pull of a black hole. Not once it passes a certain point of course but it is possible.

and a pulsar isn't natural?  you're right though i'm mixing my terms again, damn forums turning brain to mush, not to mention all the banging from the floor guys upstairs.   think i'll stop before i screw up again.

[max_ai]

didymos1120 wrote...

aryon69 wrote...

It is the gas that is being heated due to increasing speed and pressure that we see.  As to why the space junk isn't being pulled in is because it is either far enough away to avoid the gravitational pull or is being protected by the collector mass affect field.

Or it's in a stable orbit (don't freak out, max_ai).

Don't worry. I won't. Although stable orbits are impossible around black holes (possible, but not elliptic ones, or you're very very far away).
This whole thread now looks like a large "Scientific inaccuracy". Just as specified in the title.
I just don't want people to be mislead into wrong things...

Modifié par max_ai, 25 février 2010 - 09:11 .