292 réponses à ce sujet

[Pannamaslo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pannamaslo wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have to say almost all the arguments on this page and the previous miss the point. This is not a moral issue, not a political and not an aesthetic one. It *is* a matter of biology in a roundabout way, but most of all it's a matter of plausibility.

(1) Is it silly that people are attracted to, say, Tali? Not in the least. She's shaped like a woman, she has an attractive voice, and if it was possible to transmit scent in a game, I'm sure Bioware would've made her smell at least not horribly unpleasant. So, the attraction is understandable.
(2) It is silly that people want deep relationships with members of an alien species? Not in the least, humans are by nature hypersocial, they can, and do, extend their relationships to include the non-human even on Earth. It's not in the least surprising that this would extend to aliens, and intelligent ones at that.

What *is* silly, complete nonsense, is the fact that a species like the quarians, and the asari, conforms so closely to the human shape that it triggers sexual attraction. Sexual attraction triggers are *extremely* species-specific - of the millions of species on Earth - and we're related to all of them - not one (!!!) looks enough like a human to trigger regular sexual attraction. To have two alien species from *different* star systems that do have this kind of attraction, without purposeful artificial intervention or a common ancestry not so far in the past, is so astronomically implausible that even the artistic license of a fictional universe isn't enough to make it believable. And an SF universe - as opposed to a fantasy world - needs a certain minimum plausibility or it ceases to be SF.

Yeah, it's silly. And? Don't like it - move on to hard s-f, like Lem's. There are many silly things in ME universe, alien attraction is just one of them (not the most ludicrous). I like harder than softer s-f, but I make an exception for mass effect, because rule of cool. 

It mystifies me, that people are b*g so much about interspecies sex/relationship being impossible, but ignore Lazarus project or  biotics. If anything excludes ME from s-f definitions are these two.

Yes, but with biotics, everyone knows that and doesn't pretend otherwise. The Lazarus project, well, depending on the state of the corpse, particularly the brain, it may not be altogether unimaginable. But in this matter, people go all about it as if inter-species sex was just an extension of sex between different human races, with all the ideological baggage attached. Or it's about how personality is more important than attraction. True or not, that's beside the point. Spouting the party line of western culture doesn't change the plausibilites one bit.
As for the "move on" argument, I do like ME, mainly for its story and characters. That makes up for quite a lot. But I don't see why it should keep me from criticizing. Whoever created the universe didn't think all that much about the consequences of certain design decisions. The inter-species sex isn't even the worst offender - after all, they can hardly avoid including something so inexplicably popular.

Yeah..It is unimaginable. I wrote down why in some other thread - axons and dendrites decompose, you can't possibly know in what  "configuration" neural conncections where before death, which detemines our personality and memories - no can do. It is  magic just like  biotics. It is just as implausible as interspecies attraction. Still what's a problem here? That ME is not hardcore enough in terms of scientific plausibility for you or that people believe that idea of Quarian/human sex is not silly?

[tmp7704]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Sexual attraction triggers are *extremely* species-specific - of the millions of species on Earth - and we're related to all of them - not one (!!!) looks enough like a human to trigger regular sexual attraction.

Not to point out the obvious but if that was true zoophilia would be an unknown term.

You can probably make a case that not a single species on earth can universally triger sexual attraction in all humans, but then the same applies to the alien species in ME as evidenced by this very thread. So that argument amounts pretty much to nothing.

[Llandaryn]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Turians , Drell, and Quarians, no way. I am not even taking in to consideration the tactile and olfactory senses, who knows what a Turian smells like, if it's anything like a reptile...not pleasant.

What are you talking about? I have a snake and, my fish notwitstanding, it's the least smelly pet that I own, and that's including a dog, a cat and a parrot. Reptiles are cold blooded; they don't have sweat glands, and the way some of them hunt (by stealth) means that they rely on not being detected (by vision, scent, etc) by their prey. Compared to mammals, which are slobbering, sweaty, hairy things, reptiles are clean and relatively odourless in most cases.

BellaStrega wrote...

Zyrious wrote...

Dont
get me wrong though, by dangerous i dont mean "STD's", Cross-species
disease would be impossible, as far as i know. It's possible alien life
wouldn't even HAVE DNA, but would be constructed of something
completely unique (DNA is a product of amino acid's, and is inherently
unique to Earth-based life). Viruses could enter their body, but not
interact with the cells. You'd get a stuffy nose, but nothing more.

Hey, did you know that there's a lot of talk in scientific circles about the abundance of amino acids in space?

Because
yeah, they're far from "unique to Earth."  They're a product of
chemistry, which works everywhere in the entire universe.

Very true, and also one of the greatest arguments for the 'comet seeding' theory of how life began on Earth.

MutantSpleen wrote...

The Happy One wrote...

Alien sex is akin to bestiality. Truly sick.

Pretty much.  I mean if aligators suddently walked upright and learned to speak, I still wouldn't want to have sex with them.

Yeah. Having sex with an alligator who just started walking upright and talking would be just plain weird (unless, you know, it was Sobek incarnate).

I mean, you'd probably want to get to know him first, maybe have dinner, watch a vid or two, maybe visit flux. Then you could decide if you feel like you're even emotionally compatible before considering the implications of human/alligator sex.

Schneidend wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Sex with aliens is a major detachment from science fiction in the direction of Tolkienism.

Star
Wars, Star Trek, Andromeda, Babylon 5, Farscape, and just about any
other "galactic community" setting with non-human aliens that has ever
happened vehemently disagrees with you.

Not to
mention that Tolkien is classed as a fantasy author, not sci-fi. It's
unfortunate that sci-fi and fantasy tend to get lumped together so
often, especially by agents/publishers who specify "NO SCI-FI/FANTASY"
and look only for how many stories they can sell about a boring human
chick going out, buying shoes, finding a boyfriend, getting dumped by
said boyfriend, then going out and buying a few bags to make up for
sadness.

Not that I'm biased or anything...

But yeah, you
want a good sci-fi author, you go to Philip K. Dick. You try to claim
Tolkien is a sci-fi author, you get pointed at by little kids who
openly mock you.

Modifié par Llandaryn, 25 février 2010 - 07:21 .

[Pannamaslo]

Llandaryn wrote...

Pretty much.  I mean if aligators suddently walked upright and learned to speak, I still wouldn't want to have sex with them.

Yeah. Having sex with an alligator who just started walking upright and talking would be just plain weird (unless, you know, it was Sobek incarnate).

I mean, you'd probably want to get to know him first, maybe have dinner, watch a vid or two, maybe visit flux. Then you could decide if you feel like you're even emotionally compatible before considering the implications of human/alligator sex.

Lol. Good one.

Bringin human attraction to a simple biological agents is simplyfing things. Really. Attraction is a result of cultural cues, upbringing and then biology.

Modifié par Pannamaslo, 25 février 2010 - 07:32 .

[Llandaryn]

Pannamaslo wrote...

Lol. Good one.

LOL? I was having a Dr. Phil moment. <_<

[Pannamaslo]

Llandaryn wrote...

Pannamaslo wrote...

Lol. Good one.

LOL? I was having a Dr. Phil moment. <_<

Sorry. Don't know the guy. Still , have cookie for making my day with this post [smilie]http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Food_and_Drinks/Desserts/Cookies.gif[/smilie]

Modifié par Pannamaslo, 25 février 2010 - 07:32 .

[Llandaryn]

Dr Phil approves of cookies.

[GuardianAngel470]

I think for the alien romances it's less about sex and more about attraction and connection. The thing I think Bioware really got right about the Tali and Garrus romances was for both of them sex is never the end game (at least that's how I understand the Garrus one was). The whole thing was about and emotional connection and respect, what a real romance is about (at least that's what it's supposed to be about). So far every in-game romance I've seen has been about sex, that's what I got from the Ash/Liara romances because that's where it went. The Garrus/Tali romances play out so much differently and that makes them that much more real.

[Llandaryn]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

I think for the alien romances it's less about sex and more about attraction and connection. The thing I think Bioware really got right about the Tali and Garrus romances was for both of them sex is never the end game (at least that's how I understand the Garrus one was). The whole thing was about and emotional connection and respect, what a real romance is about (at least that's what it's supposed to be about). So far every in-game romance I've seen has been about sex, that's what I got from the Ash/Liara romances because that's where it went. The Garrus/Tali romances play out so much differently and that makes them that much more real.

This one agrees with your observations.

[BattleVisor]

People should just accept the science of Mass Effect, I mean, even now we don't have any scientific understanding of how sentient life comes about.



Its Science Fiction, just accept convergent evolution and be done with it.

[Ieldra]

Pannamaslo wrote...
Yeah..It is unimaginable. I wrote down why in some other thread - axons and dendrites decompose, you can't possibly know in what  "configuration" neural conncections where before death, which detemines our personality and memories - no can do.

All right. Thanks for the info.

Still what's a problem here? That ME is not hardcore enough in terms of scientific plausibility for you or that people believe that idea of Quarian/human sex is not silly?

Some of both, in fact. You know, I don't object to the miraculous in SF. To do so would deprive me of many interesting stories. But I do think that SF should have only as many miracles as necessary (for the sake of the world functioning as it should, even for coolness' sake), and that efforts should be made to explain things that don't strictly need "magic" to function in terms compatible - not with with real science, but at least with scientific thinking, with plausible cause-and-effect. One example are the wondrous properties of Element Zero. OK, influencing mass the way described is magic. I accept that. Or I would accept it, if that could remotely account for its effects - biotics, ftl travel, ME-style guns. Eezo is not a technological miracle, it's a whole bloody sack of miracles! Any technological problem? Eezo solves it, I guarantee it! Bah!
The other thing I object to is, indeed, that the ME universe is so comfortably intuitive. ME shields us from all the strangeness any remotely plausible interstellar conglomerate of civilizations would exhibit, even were FTL possible. People walk in their spaceships, which look like airplanes so we don't have to adapt to even the least level of the unfamiliar. Space travel takes comfortable hours or days, so we don't have to think about time and space any differently than we do in RL. Almost nowhere is really remote because communication has unlimited reach. The galaxy seems small and comprehensible which it is not. Citadel space is as much as 21st century Earth as you can make an interstellar setting. And don't even get me started on the social aspects. For me, this is almost like deception, to say nothing of the fact that it's so utterly boring compared to what it might be.

[BattleVisor]

Ieldra2 wrote...

People walk in their spaceships, which look like airplanes so we don't have to adapt to even the least level of the unfamiliar.e.

lol so we should be in flying saucers. You sound like a psuedo sci-fi evangelist

Airplane stlye ships are practical. They also have a huge lists of advantages.

Modifié par BattleVisor, 25 février 2010 - 07:59 .

[Tinbad4]

am i the only one who wants a krogan li?

[Llandaryn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Space travel takes comfortable hours or days, so we don't have to think about time and space any differently than we do in RL.

It wouldn't be much of a game if your several hours of travel at FTL speed meant that upon decelerating to sub-light, several hundred years have passed, the Reapers have already come and gone, and everything you knew has been annihilated.

Although it would be a good way of avoiding the destruction. Just accelerate a few million people to light-speed travel for a couple of years, maybe even put them in cryo, and when they wake up, they have a brand spanking newly cleansed galaxy to play in, and another 50,000 years to advance their technology before 'hiding' at FTL speed for the next culling cycle.

[Pannamaslo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pannamaslo wrote...
Yeah..It is unimaginable. I wrote down why in some other thread - axons and dendrites decompose, you can't possibly know in what  "configuration" neural conncections where before death, which detemines our personality and memories - no can do.

All right. Thanks for the info.

Still what's a problem here? That ME is not hardcore enough in terms of scientific plausibility for you or that people believe that idea of Quarian/human sex is not silly?

Some of both, in fact. You know, I don't object to the miraculous in SF. To do so would deprive me of many interesting stories. But I do think that SF should have only as many miracles as necessary (for the sake of the world functioning as it should, even for coolness' sake), and that efforts should be made to explain things that don't strictly need "magic" to function in terms compatible - not with with real science, but at least with scientific thinking, with plausible cause-and-effect. One example are the wondrous properties of Element Zero. OK, influencing mass the way described is magic. I accept that. Or I would accept it, if that could remotely account for its effects - biotics, ftl travel, ME-style guns. Eezo is not a technological miracle, it's a whole bloody sack of miracles! Any technological problem? Eezo solves it, I guarantee it! Bah!
The other thing I object to is, indeed, that the ME universe is so comfortably intuitive. ME shields us from all the strangeness any remotely plausible interstellar conglomerate of civilizations would exhibit, even were FTL possible. People walk in their spaceships, which look like airplanes so we don't have to adapt to even the least level of the unfamiliar. Space travel takes comfortable hours or days, so we don't have to think about time and space any differently than we do in RL. Almost nowhere is really remote because communication has unlimited reach. The galaxy seems small and comprehensible which it is not. Citadel space is as much as 21st century Earth as you can make an interstellar setting. And don't even get me started on the social aspects. For me, this is almost like deception, to say nothing of the fact that it's so utterly boring compared to what it might be.

What differs us is that  above facts does not bother me. I really don't whant to think what ME could have been if aliens were wierder or space travel lasted thousand years. It's a Buzz Killington and party pooping. I just go to "willing suspension of disbelief" mode and play the game, because it's fun.

[Sanadrix23]

This is why I still don't understand the opposition to same-sex LI in the game. I mean...at least it's the same species, haha.

[Annora]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Some of both, in fact. You know, I don't object to the miraculous in SF. To do so would deprive me of many interesting stories. But I do think that SF should have only as many miracles as necessary (for the sake of the world functioning as it should, even for coolness' sake), and that efforts should be made to explain things that don't strictly need "magic" to function in terms compatible - not with with real science, but at least with scientific thinking, with plausible cause-and-effect. One example are the wondrous properties of Element Zero. OK, influencing mass the way described is magic. I accept that. Or I would accept it, if that could remotely account for its effects - biotics, ftl travel, ME-style guns. Eezo is not a technological miracle, it's a whole bloody sack of miracles! Any technological problem? Eezo solves it, I guarantee it! Bah!
The other thing I object to is, indeed, that the ME universe is so comfortably intuitive. ME shields us from all the strangeness any remotely plausible interstellar conglomerate of civilizations would exhibit, even were FTL possible. People walk in their spaceships, which look like airplanes so we don't have to adapt to even the least level of the unfamiliar. Space travel takes comfortable hours or days, so we don't have to think about time and space any differently than we do in RL. Almost nowhere is really remote because communication has unlimited reach. The galaxy seems small and comprehensible which it is not. Citadel space is as much as 21st century Earth as you can make an interstellar setting. And don't even get me started on the social aspects. For me, this is almost like deception, to say nothing of the fact that it's so utterly boring compared to what it might be.

Ridiculously long wall of text is ridiculously long.

When you play a game like Mass Effect, or watch a TV show like Star Trek, there are certain things you just have to be willing to ignore to enjoy it. If you can't, then you shouldn't be watching it/playing it/reading it. A lot of people gain an amazing amount of enjoyment from things like Mass Effect, even if scientifically speaking, it's a load of horse****.

You remind me of that scientist who demanded all science fiction entertainment from Hollywood be based on reality. It's not going to happen.

[tmp7704]

Ieldra2 wrote...

People walk in their spaceships, which look like airplanes so we don't have to adapt to even the least level of the unfamiliar.

Exhibit A, with handful of exhibits B.



Totally like airplanes.

Modifié par tmp7704, 26 février 2010 - 01:27 .

[cos1ne]

BellaStrega wrote...

Chirality and stuff in nature.

actually according to that link.....

"Typical naturally occurring proteins, made of L amino acids, are known as left-handed proteins, whereas D amino acids produce right-handed proteins...."

"D-form amino acids tend to taste sweet, whereas L-forms are usually tasteless. Spearmint leaves and caraway seeds, respectively, contain L-carvone and D-carvone - enantiomers of carvone. These smell different to most people because our olfactory receptors also contain chiral molecules that behave differently in the presence of different enantiomers."

So being as we've been told Tali and Garrus are D-form that would mean their smells and tastes would be sweet to our senses, thus appealing.

[tonnactus]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 Our nearest relatives, for instance. How many species of all the millions we have on Earth have human-compatible attraction triggers?
 

www.blogoteca.com/upload/bit/arti/175-3793-a-neandertal.jpg

Neandertals.Some 1000 years ago,other human races exists.


Some women would find this men attractive.

Modifié par tonnactus, 26 février 2010 - 08:43 .

[glitter_guld]

cos1ne wrote...

BellaStrega wrote...

Chirality and stuff in nature.

actually according to that link.....

"Typical naturally occurring proteins, made of L amino acids, are known as left-handed proteins, whereas D amino acids produce right-handed proteins...."

"D-form amino acids tend to taste sweet, whereas L-forms are usually tasteless. Spearmint leaves and caraway seeds, respectively, contain L-carvone and D-carvone - enantiomers of carvone. These smell different to most people because our olfactory receptors also contain chiral molecules that behave differently in the presence of different enantiomers."

So being as we've been told Tali and Garrus are D-form that would mean their smells and tastes would be sweet to our senses, thus appealing.

Not necessarily. Just like when kissing and licking humans, you will get not separated amino acids to your mouth, but a rainbow of proteins, protein fragments, salts, ions, etc. These may taste horribly unpleasant of good depending on what, when and how it gets ... you know ... where it gets.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 26 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[wolfstanus]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

People walk in their spaceships, which look like airplanes so we don't have to adapt to even the least level of the unfamiliar.

Exhibit A, with handful of exhibits B.



Totally like airplanes.

"Asari have cockpits.... oh wait no they don't"


Anyways is it silly for a white man to have sex with a black girl? No... So why would it be differnt for aliens.

Modifié par wolfstanus, 26 février 2010 - 08:58 .

[glitter_guld]

wolfstanus wrote...
...
Anyways is it silly for a white man to have sex with a black girl? No... So why would it be differnt for aliens.

Because sex between different species is not the same as sex between the same species of different phenotype. You can't project intracpecies' morals and physical rules onto interspecies relationships. You need first to define what is acceptable or not for interspecies relationships, and only then, say that something is silly or not.

Modifié par glitter_guld, 26 février 2010 - 09:04 .

[wolfstanus]

glitter_guld wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...
...
Anyways is it silly for a white man to have sex with a black girl? No... So why would it be differnt for aliens.

Because sex between different species is not the same as sex between the same species of different phenotype. You can't project intracpecies' morals and physical rules onto interspecies relationships. You need first to define what is acceptable or not for interspecies relationships, and only then, say that something is silly or not.

I should have put it in a differnt way.

For some it would be a fetish (weird stuff). For others the fact its differnt. Others more of a love thing... and love crosses all borders. The thing is you get 2 beings that both think and feel as we do and things will happen... no matter how differnt they are. One person finds it weird the other does not. I personaly would not think its weird.