292 réponses à ce sujet

[Pauravi]

Ieldra2 wrote...

OK, influencing mass the way described is magic. I accept that. Or I would accept it, if that could remotely account for its effects - biotics, ftl travel, ME-style guns. Eezo is not a technological miracle, it's a whole bloody sack of miracles! Any technological problem? Eezo solves it, I guarantee it! Bah!

I really don't think you've thought very hard about this objection.  Eezo absolutely makes those things perfectly plausible in the context of what eezo actually does.

While Eezo is magic in that it conflicts with some basic elements of modern physics, the way it works and the sort of technology that it is used for is not as hand-wavy as you imagine.  Being able to manipulate the mass of an object would be an incredibly useful thing to do.  Considering that the standard model of modern particle physics predicts the existence of a field mediated by the Higgs boson, a field that is responsible for giving objects mass and inertia, it isn't THAT big a magical leap by Sci-Fi standards to imagine the possibility of a technology that could manipulate that field.

Now think of the technologies you're saying that are miraculous.
Biotics?  Simply the willful manipulation of the masses of objects.  Getting things to float, or giving different parts of an object different masses, or creating mass barriers, can easily be accounted for with mass-affecting fields.

FTL travel?  Well, relativity says that objects gain mass as they accelerate to light speed.  But if the object has no mass in the first place due to a mass effect field, then it could theoretically accelerate to light speed without a problem.  This is why photons can move at light speed -- they have no rest mass.

ME-style guns?  Well, if you can manipulate the masses of objects you could accelerate an object to fantastic velocities with a very small force.  Ta-da.

Assuming you accept the idea of manipulating mass fields, the technologies you mention aren't miracles.  They're smart ideas.  Eezo accounts for these effects, and in a very plausible way if you consider what the mass effect actually does.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Strictly speaking Eezo's logic for FTL doesn't work - even if you can create a bubble of space where light can go faster then it can conventionally, you couldn't move that bubble of altered space through normal space faster then light.



Still, I'm happy to ignore it since FTL is just awesome.

[The Mythical Magician]

I do think Tali romance is completely silly and I believe the only reason its in ME2 is to please the Tali fanboys who wanted to "get some" from her.

[Astranagant]

BattleVisor wrote...

People should just accept the science of Mass Effect, I mean, even now we don't have any scientific understanding of how sentient life comes about.

Its Science Fiction, just accept convergent evolution and be done with it.

You can't "accept the science" when there is no science involved.

There's no reason why anyone should have to accept shoddy writing.

[GodWood]

They have personalities, motivations, goals and emotions just like humans.

How would having a relationship with one be silly?

[Poisonedblades]

Okay if you make this point, the next logical step is to conclude:

Why wouldn't you think romancing pixels is silly?



The only thing that is "real" about any "relationship" in this game is the character traits written into each character. Im sure a majority of the alimance fan base understands this already.

[Stinkface27]

Certainly it is far-fetched. Kinda like basically everything else in the Mass Effect universe.

[MutantSpleen]

Pannamaslo wrote...

Llandaryn wrote...

Pretty much.  I mean if aligators suddently walked upright and learned to speak, I still wouldn't want to have sex with them.

Yeah. Having sex with an alligator who just started walking upright and talking would be just plain weird (unless, you know, it was Sobek incarnate).

I mean, you'd probably want to get to know him first, maybe have dinner, watch a vid or two, maybe visit flux. Then you could decide if you feel like you're even emotionally compatible before considering the implications of human/alligator sex.

Lol. Good one.

Bringin human attraction to a simple biological agents is simplyfing things. Really. Attraction is a result of cultural cues, upbringing and then biology.

No, it biology first.  They have taken people from different cultures all around the world and had them look at faces to find what is the most attractive to them. They almost universally pick the same faces as attractive.  There are certain biological cues that are universal triggers for attractiveness in humans. Cultural cues and upbringing certainly play a part but they do not override the basic biological cues in the average person.

[ThatDancingTurian]

MutantSpleen wrote...

No, it biology first.  They have taken people from different cultures all around the world and had them look at faces to find what is the most attractive to them. They almost universally pick the same faces as attractive.  There are certain biological cues that are universal triggers for attractiveness in humans. Cultural cues and upbringing certainly play a part but they do not override the basic biological cues in the average person.

That's kind of chicken and egg. Are faces recognized by the populous as the standard for beauty because of biological cues and thus put into advertising and media? Or does the study simply pick up on what it considers to be biological cues, based on the populous picking the faces that best suit the standard for beauty as dictated to them by advertising and media? There's nothing biologically sound about a size 2-4 being preferred over an average (or even slightly overweight) woman who would be more able to bear and carry a child to term.

Personally, I don't think attraction is dominantly a biological thing, especially in the case of women. I read of a similar study, but it showed that the men were more interested in a single physical 'type' (big lips, long eyelashes, etc), whereas the women had greatly varied responses as to what they considered attractive.

[MutantSpleen]

No a lot of the people in the study were not exposed to modern media advertising. Some of the participants were people from remote cultures with little outside influence. Even babies can pick out the faces that are considered more attractive.



Symmetry is a huge factor, the more symmetrical face is generally considered more attractive.

[Vaenier]

MutantSpleen wrote...

No, it biology first.  They have taken people from different cultures all around the world and had them look at faces to find what is the most attractive to them. They almost universally pick the same faces as attractive.  There are certain biological cues that are universal triggers for attractiveness in humans. Cultural cues and upbringing certainly play a part but they do not override the basic biological cues in the average person.

I must be broken then.

[anmiro]

 I don't think any of the LI's actually work unless the player feels some connection with a character. I don't have any femsheps, but if I did and I pursued a relationship with any of the male characters, I would feel weird about it.

[Maera Imrov]

screwoffreg wrote...

Sexualized aliens have been around since before Captain Kirk laid down with green women. Its part of the sci fi mythos and fantasy...

This. People are acting like ME has somehow broken some unstated Sci-Fi law that no Humanoid race should be attractive to/sleep with a human. It happened in Star Trek. It has happened in the Star Wars EU books more than once. Hell, Wedge had a thing (unconssumated, but a thing) for some vaguely bird-esque woman once, as I recall. ME is not the first to do it by far. It is not against the 'rules' of Sci-Fi. It might stretch the odds that a bunch of races managed to evolve into more-or-less compatible humanoid forms sexually, but that's certainly not anything new to Sci-Fi, and it's got nothing at all to do with a deviation toward Tolkien as someone impled. How a couple of mortals getting with elves has anything to do with aliens is beyond me. The Elves were formed the same as the mortals in all but immortality and ability to ride off to the Isle and Valinor. Perfectly capable of producing half-bred offspring, by Tolkien's own lore.

If you find it odd, that's certainly your right, but trying to insinuate that it's some stretching believability is asinine. It's always been part of Sci-fi, and always will be. It's part of the fantastical element to it. Yes, Sci-fi has always tried to present itself as 'plausible, at some point in the future', but the alien sex thing has always been part of it, and never really been explained. It's just there.

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Iain M. Banks does a pretty good job of explaining why it would work in the Culture series (but it only works in that series - and I recommend everyone read it!): they genetically engineer themselves to have a wide-range of sexual and reproductive compatibility.
Obviously not the case in the Mass Effect universe, but frankly if the alien races don't smell or superficially taste objectionable, and look suitably "pretty" then I can't really see why it wouldn't happen with other sapient beings.
EDIT: Also what was said above - it's a sci-fi trope. But hardly the one I'd be most concerned about - the fact that aliens look humanoid and enough like humans we'd consider them attractive is the part people should jump on first.

Modifié par Multifarious Algorithm, 27 février 2010 - 03:32 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Ever since Captain Kirk slept with green alien women it has been mankind's dream to sleep with sexy aliens. Don't kill the dream!

Modifié par ReconTeam, 27 février 2010 - 03:35 .

[Ieldra]

Pauravi wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

OK, influencing mass the way described is magic. I accept that. Or I would accept it, if that could remotely account for its effects - biotics, ftl travel, ME-style guns. Eezo is not a technological miracle, it's a whole bloody sack of miracles! Any technological problem? Eezo solves it, I guarantee it! Bah!

I really don't think you've thought very hard about this objection.  Eezo absolutely makes those things perfectly plausible in the context of what eezo actually does.

While Eezo is magic in that it conflicts with some basic elements of modern physics, the way it works and the sort of technology that it is used for is not as hand-wavy as you imagine.  Being able to manipulate the mass of an object would be an incredibly useful thing to do.  Considering that the standard model of modern particle physics predicts the existence of a field mediated by the Higgs boson, a field that is responsible for giving objects mass and inertia, it isn't THAT big a magical leap by Sci-Fi standards to imagine the possibility of a technology that could manipulate that field.

Now think of the technologies you're saying that are miraculous.
Biotics?  Simply the willful manipulation of the masses of objects.  Getting things to float, or giving different parts of an object different masses, or creating mass barriers, can easily be accounted for with mass-affecting fields.

Yes,I would  completely accept that - if biotics were limited to send things floating, pulling. kinetic barriers etc. But how to account for something like "Incinerate"? I repeat, it's the *different* things eezo does that makes it silly.

FTL travel?  Well, relativity says that objects gain mass as they accelerate to light speed.  But if the object has no mass in the first place due to a mass effect field, then it could theoretically accelerate to light speed without a problem.  This is why photons can move at light speed -- they have no rest mass.

Indeed a massless object usually moves *at* light speed. But that has nothing to do with exceeding it. Lightspeed is a constant. To - even theoretically - exceed it you'd have to warp time and space, possibly even into something like a black hole. Or extend the concept of spacetime in some way. Apart from that, I could actually imagine creating a wormhole by using eezo, but that's not how it works in the ME universe, is it?

Assuming you accept the idea of manipulating mass fields, the technologies you mention aren't miracles.  They're smart ideas.  Eezo accounts for these effects, and in a very plausible way if you consider what the mass effect actually does.

I admit it's a very good idea at the start, especially considering there's a lot of matter in the universe we know next to nothing about. But it's an idea extended to include so many effects that it has become silly.

[Llandaryn]

glitter_guld wrote...

You need first to define what is acceptable or not for interspecies relationships, and only then, say that something is silly or not.

If somebody tried to tell me what is 'acceptable' to feel (about) or do (with) another sapient humanoid life-form, be it an asari, a quarian, or even a bloody krogan... I would punch that person in the face, Shepard-style.

I decide what is acceptable for me to feel and do. And as far as I'm concerned, as long as one party isn't exploiting the other, and everything is consensual, then anything goes.

Vaenier wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

No,
it biology first.  They have taken people from different cultures all
around the world and had them look at faces to find what is the most
attractive to them. They almost universally pick the same faces as
attractive.  There are certain biological cues that are universal
triggers for attractiveness in humans. Cultural cues and upbringing
certainly play a part but they do not override the basic biological
cues in the average person.

I must be broken then.

Yeah, me too.

[DalishRanger]

While I can understand the appeal for others... Yes, I personally find it a tad odd/silly. No biggie, I just don't pursue them.

[RayneMoon]

It's Science Fiction that word is key.
Basic Definition: 
"Science fiction is a genre of fiction. It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation)."

The story doesn't have to match actual science, it's fiction writing.
It takes bits and pieces of reality and then fills in the gaps with fiction.
While it may seem strange that humans can be attracted to another species just remember the other bizarre instances when others think,"How is that attractive?" Just keep in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder so maybe some of the alien species are humanoid enough that they could be physically appealing.

[Deflagratio]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

OK, influencing mass the way described is magic. I accept that. Or I would accept it, if that could remotely account for its effects - biotics, ftl travel, ME-style guns. Eezo is not a technological miracle, it's a whole bloody sack of miracles! Any technological problem? Eezo solves it, I guarantee it! Bah!

I really don't think you've thought very hard about this objection.  Eezo absolutely makes those things perfectly plausible in the context of what eezo actually does.

While Eezo is magic in that it conflicts with some basic elements of modern physics, the way it works and the sort of technology that it is used for is not as hand-wavy as you imagine.  Being able to manipulate the mass of an object would be an incredibly useful thing to do.  Considering that the standard model of modern particle physics predicts the existence of a field mediated by the Higgs boson, a field that is responsible for giving objects mass and inertia, it isn't THAT big a magical leap by Sci-Fi standards to imagine the possibility of a technology that could manipulate that field.

Now think of the technologies you're saying that are miraculous.
Biotics?  Simply the willful manipulation of the masses of objects.  Getting things to float, or giving different parts of an object different masses, or creating mass barriers, can easily be accounted for with mass-affecting fields.

Yes,I would  completely accept that - if biotics were limited to send things floating, pulling. kinetic barriers etc. But how to account for something like "Incinerate"? I repeat, it's the *different* things eezo does that makes it silly.

FTL travel?  Well, relativity says that objects gain mass as they accelerate to light speed.  But if the object has no mass in the first place due to a mass effect field, then it could theoretically accelerate to light speed without a problem.  This is why photons can move at light speed -- they have no rest mass.

Indeed a massless object usually moves *at* light speed. But that has nothing to do with exceeding it. Lightspeed is a constant. To - even theoretically - exceed it you'd have to warp time and space, possibly even into something like a black hole. Or extend the concept of spacetime in some way. Apart from that, I could actually imagine creating a wormhole by using eezo, but that's not how it works in the ME universe, is it?

Assuming you accept the idea of manipulating mass fields, the technologies you mention aren't miracles.  They're smart ideas.  Eezo accounts for these effects, and in a very plausible way if you consider what the mass effect actually does.

I admit it's a very good idea at the start, especially considering there's a lot of matter in the universe we know next to nothing about. But it's an idea extended to include so many effects that it has become silly.

The important thing to realize, is that the civilization of the Galaxy doesn't even understand how the Mass Effect technology works. Which is why they cannot forge their own relays. And Mass Effect creates a warp in Space-Time. So it is possible to THEORETICALLY exceed the relative speed of light given the layman's info we have. 

Give some examples of what it does that's "Silly" As in, outside of the fictional effect of Element Zero. You could say that Element Zero is to 2183 what Fire was to Man at about 110,000BCE. Or what the Microprocessor is to us today. a device that simply turns on and off at a certain frequency has allowed us to create the uncountable wonders of the information age.

[Deflagratio]

RayneMoon wrote...

It's Science Fiction that word is key.
Basic Definition: 
"Science fiction is a genre of fiction. It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation)."

The story doesn't have to match actual science, it's fiction writing.
It takes bits and pieces of reality and then fills in the gaps with fiction.
While it may seem strange that humans can be attracted to another species just remember the other bizarre instances when others think,"How is that attractive?" Just keep in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder so maybe some of the alien species are humanoid enough that they could be physically appealing.

And when "Beaty is in the eye of the beholder" Fails, there's always Jaegerbombs.

[RayneMoon]

Deflagratio wrote...

RayneMoon wrote...

It's Science Fiction that word is key.
Basic Definition: 
"Science fiction is a genre of fiction. It differs from fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation)."

The story doesn't have to match actual science, it's fiction writing.
It takes bits and pieces of reality and then fills in the gaps with fiction.
While it may seem strange that humans can be attracted to another species just remember the other bizarre instances when others think,"How is that attractive?" Just keep in mind that beauty is in the eye of the beholder so maybe some of the alien species are humanoid enough that they could be physically appealing.

And when "Beaty is in the eye of the beholder" Fails, there's always Jaegerbombs.

And the Mystery Drink that makes everyone prettier...

[Sveah]

I don't know... I thought Thane was pretty sexy... something about the mix of some of his facial features, muscles, and personality... lol But, I can't believe they totally cut out the possibility of interacting more with Kaiden in ME2! Looking at the pic before going into the big fight was sweet, but...

[Pannamaslo]

MutantSpleen wrote...

No a lot of the people in the study were not exposed to modern media advertising. Some of the participants were people from remote cultures with little outside influence. Even babies can pick out the faces that are considered more attractive.

Symmetry is a huge factor, the more symmetrical face is generally considered more attractive.

And in some other studies people from different cultures were suppose to say what is the most appealing thing in their partners. The results were inconsistent. There are different factors that influance attraction. Biology is only one of them. If only biology was a primary source of attraction, there wouldn't be so much variety in what is attractive to a diffferent individuals (even in the same culture) and so many theories about it.  Sure there ae pancultural traits that are consider attractive by majority of participants. Does that determine sexual attraction or attraction in general toward a certain individual by a certain individual? Noooo. There is yet to detemine which factors play major roles, but for what we know it's interaction of them.

Most basic pricniple of a modern psychology:

human = culture + close enviroment + biology

Attraction is also made of cognitive components, not just physiological reactions.

Modifié par Pannamaslo, 27 février 2010 - 10:28 .