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[Elfseeker]

We learn, if we care to, about Andraste and how she 'spread the word' in time-honored fashion(by the sword and the bow). Sure, some good came of it, but largely it was an invasion to make 'unbelievers' 'repent' and join the big cuddly group of Maker-tagalongs. But nevermind that.

I have a theory(not game-supported in any way) that the 'maker' she followed was merely an entity of supernatural powers from the Fade or similar place. Not that she was an abomination, or anything...though that is certainly possible, if we consider Flemeth.
He gives her powers to strike down her enemies. Of course, no extradimensional entity has ever been described to do such a thing for its own purposes, right? 
He -supposedly- burns crops and washes the land 'clean', but as in our own world, that might just be coincidence.
My point is that this being is -not- all-powerful. just plenty powerful enough to make him/her/itself a nice little thrall to build a powerbase with(gained powers, grew distant from the people who knew her). As to the benevolent tones of the chant....does not mean anything, so long as those involved think in good ways about the being. So long as they -believe-.
As for why it has not done more, showed it new power or whatever...would defeat the purpose. Also, suspect such a being would have a few more options open than just Ferelden and Thedas.

As for the maker bidding Leliana help you defeat the Blight? Simple; the Blight would wipe out it's steady supply of belief. 

Ultimately, of course, she may just have been a 'jesus'; someone with unusual abilities building a powerbase for -themselves-.

[CybAnt1]

Well, obviously, there are the Chantryists who believe the Maker is real, and a lot of people (including some of our human NPCs -- ignoring the nonhumans) who think the Chantry religion is bunk.



And obviously the game wants to leave the question unanswered and mysterious, I know this was a DA design decision from early on.



It's clear that even his devotees don't believe he/it intervenes in earthly affairs, hence the response you get when you ask for amulets "blessed" by the Maker for the troops at Redcliffe. Even the priestess acknowledges they would be of little value other than their possible placebo effect... and she's a believer!



Whether the Maker is a fantasy, a reality, a demon (that would be very Gnostic), or a benevolent Fade spirit, I think the question one has to answer is what force was "powering" the supernatural aspects of the Gauntlet and keeping the Guardian alive?



Also ... the Urn of Andraste's Ashes DOES heal ... is that placebo also?

[highcastle]

If you bring Oghren or even Morrigan into the Gauntlet, they'll both comment about how the place is infused with lyrium. That amount of power in such a space could do trippy things. Like sustain the gauntlet. As for the Guardian...Flemeth's lived just as long, hasn't she?

This comes down to a matter of faith. Do you have faith in the Maker as the Chantry defines him, or do you look for other explanations (in a world of magic, there can be many). I don't know whether we're supposed to believe in the Maker or not. I've RPed characters of faith, and characters who ascribe to the whole this-place-is-infused-with-lyrium-and-that's-all-there-is-going-on-here philosophy.

[Maria Caliban]

Elfseeker wrote...

We learn, if we care to, about Andraste and how she 'spread the word' in time-honored fashion(by the sword and the bow). Sure, some good came of it, but largely it was an invasion to make 'unbelievers' 'repent' and join the big cuddly group of Maker-tagalongs. But nevermind that.

I disagree. Andreste likely believed in the Maker and thought the magisters had brought about the Blight, but the hordes that followed her and the elves that joined her cause did so because they wanted to overthrow the evil empire. LATER ON, her Chant of Light spread, cults popped up, and eventually the Chantry was founded.

Think of it this way: Luke is a Jedi and the Emperor is a Sith. Even if Luke sees himself as following the Force and getting rid of the Sith, the Rebel army and the war it wages isn't a religious one.

He -supposedly- burns crops and washes the land 'clean', but as in our own world, that might just be coincidence.

The Maker is never described as doing this.

[Godak]

Maria Caliban wrote...

He -supposedly- burns crops and washes the land 'clean', but as in our own world, that might just be coincidence.

The Maker is never described as doing this.

Acutally, he is, sort of. He supposedly makes the sun cause a drought, "burning" the Imperium's crops. It's from one of the ghost dudes in the Gauntlet.

[CybAnt1]

This comes down to a matter of faith. Do you have faith in the Maker as the Chantry defines him,

The answer for the nonhumans is obviously no. Dwarves have their Paragons (essentially ancestor worship), and elves their gods. The Qunari religion also appears to be different, obviously like their society highly martial focused. Of course, if you help Brother Burkel, you are helping the religion jump races.... 

Now it's interesting. Apparently before Andraste introduced faith in the Maker, it seems humans worshipped other gods beforehand - animal/nature gods. I think these are the "old gods" that Morrigan is referring to. And it seems like pagan Chasinds in the wild may keep worshipping some of them, even in the face of the new Chantry-Maker religion, hence her disbelief. 

As I see it, her excitement over giving birth to an "old god" may tie into a desire on her part to get rid of this new Maker religion crap and get people to return to their earlier paganism. And what better way to do that than to give birth to an old god? 

The Darkspawn are in some ways tied to the old gods ... I think this is something we're about to find out more about in Awakenings ... that's just imho. 

It's not exactly clear to me whether the Maker faith is a form of monotheism or henotheism. IOW, are the Chantryists of the belief that the Maker is the ONLY god that exists (monotheism), or simply that he is greater and more worthy of worship than earlier human gods (henotheism). 

Also, and yes I guess the "lorists" will castigate me for not reading every possible codex entry on this, but it's not clear to me whether they believe the Maker created the entire universe, or just the world of Thedas itself (or if that's even a meaningful distinction). 

[Maria Caliban]

Godak wrote...

Acutally, he is, sort of. He supposedly makes the sun cause a drought, "burning" the Imperium's crops. It's from one of the ghost dudes in the Gauntlet.

*edjumicated*

[steelfire_dragon]

I spit on your Andraste.

I defecated in her ashes

[Maria Caliban]

steelfire_dragon wrote...

I spit on your Andraste.
I defecated in her ashes

This is the fifth time I've seen you post the exact same thing.

1) This is not an RP forum. There's a Dragon Age RPing website that advertizes in the Community Creations forum. Check that out.

2) Andraste helped to free the elves from Imperial slavery, and her sons granted elves the Dales. There’s no reason for an elf to dislike Andraste, even if they disliked the Chantry.

[metatheurgist]

I think the Maker is one of the Old Gods. Probably that Trickster one. He's having a great laugh about the whole thing. The other gods aren't appreciating the whole trapped on Earth as as Darskpawn prank and are very bitter though.

[Jace Surana]

Screw the chantry. Screw the maker. Andraste was pretty cool though, for a crazy chick.

[InvaderErl]

I think the Maker's a malevolent entity playing some sort of xanatos gambit... but that's just me.

[Eternal Phoenix]

The Maker is based of off God. His Prophet Andreste is supposed to be Jesus of that world who was comdemmed to death even though she was innocent just like Jesus was innocent and didn't I hear she was sacrificed? Just like Jesus was so our sins could be forgiven. The Urn is the Holy Grail and instead of granting immortality as the Holy Grail is supposed too, it grants healing to the person who takes some ashes. The knights are King's arthur's knights searching for the grail, and your character is an idiot who can even deny the maker even after seeing that Andreste's ashes have spirits and some man who teleports around the place with a beard guarding it and this man also knows what you've done in your past, and the ashes themselves actually heal people proving that the story is true, yet your character still has the option of going up to people saying the Maker is a lie? Hmm your character should have only be allowed to say stuff like that before finding the urn, after your character found the urn such diologue options shouldn't have even have came up. But I suppose if you want your character to be an idiot and you like him/her saying dumb stuff and you run around naked allowing people to beat you up and rely on team members to win a battle while you are naked on the ground unconscious....I suppose you can then.

[CybAnt1]

The analogy between the Urn and the Holy Grail was obvious to me even before I began the Sacred Ashes quest. I'm like ... an Urn to heal a sick & dying arl ... very Arthurian.



Your analogy breaks down in one interesting way ... Andraste was female, and the Chantry seems mostly run by priestesses. A complete gender reversal to the medieval Church.

[Eternal Phoenix]

CybAnt1 wrote...

This comes down to a matter of faith. Do you have faith in the Maker as the Chantry defines him,

Now it's interesting. Apparently before Andraste introduced faith in the Maker, it seems humans worshipped other gods beforehand - animal/nature gods. I think these are the "old gods" that Morrigan is referring to. And it seems like pagan Chasinds in the wild may keep worshipping some of them, even in the face of the new Chantry-Maker religion, hence her disbelief. 

As I see it, her excitement over giving birth to an "old god" may tie into a desire on her part to get rid of this new Maker religion crap and get people to return to their earlier paganism. And what better way to do that than to give birth to an old god? 

I am glad I sent that Morrigan away from my group then. I just wish the game allowed us to kill her, she was annoying at the start and annoying even when she is gone as is her mother whom I wish to slay as well.

[Eternal Phoenix]

CybAnt1 wrote...

The analogy between the Urn and the Holy Grail was obvious to me even before I began the Sacred Ashes quest. I'm like ... an Urn to heal a sick & dying arl ... very Arthurian.

Your analogy breaks down in one interesting way ... Andraste was female, and the Chantry seems mostly run by priestesses. A complete gender reversal to the medieval Church.

Indeed. Also note that the codex about The Maker contains re-worded bible verses. All that Bioware has done has mixed a few things up and instead of calling him God, they called him The Maker. When wondering past the Chantry and often hearing the priestesses preach I often think that I am playing a game set in this world while the name Templar comes up as I run past a Templar near the Chantry.

[Doug84]

I don't know... the Maker might be real, but the demon in the ophanage said he wasn't.



Then again, the demon was talking to a templar and was trying to discourage him, so its questionnable at best.



Also, if there is no maker, where did the black city come from? Have the spirits of the fade been asked? Further still, if their is no maker, what created the darkspawn and the physical world?

[Doug84]

Elton John is dead wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

The analogy between the Urn and the Holy Grail was obvious to me even before I began the Sacred Ashes quest. I'm like ... an Urn to heal a sick & dying arl ... very Arthurian.

Your analogy breaks down in one interesting way ... Andraste was female, and the Chantry seems mostly run by priestesses. A complete gender reversal to the medieval Church.

Indeed. Also note that the codex about The Maker contains re-worded bible verses. All that Bioware has done has mixed a few things up and instead of calling him God, they called him The Maker. When wondering past the Chantry and often hearing the priestesses preach I often think that I am playing a game set in this world while the name Templar comes up as I run past a Templar near the Chantry.

I don't know... God always stuck me as "Aggressive-Aggressive" not "Passive-Aggressive" like the Maker

[Ahisgewaya]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Whether the Maker is a fantasy, a reality, a demon (that would be very Gnostic)

Correction, that would be very hilarious.

[Ahisgewaya]

metatheurgist wrote...

I think the Maker is one of the Old Gods. Probably that Trickster one. He's having a great laugh about the whole thing. The other gods aren't appreciating the whole trapped on Earth as as Darskpawn prank and are very bitter though.

I thought this when I first read the codex entry on the elven Dread Wolf god.
I thought to myself "I bet that's the "maker" and that's what actually happened. (For those who don't know, the codex entry says the elf religion says their gods were tricked into leaving the world through the machinations of the dread wolf, who is now the only god in the mortal realm)

[Maferath]

Yeah, if the Maker has any true existence in DA's world, he could very well be the same entity than that trickster god of the elves... now that would be ironic.

I doubt it though. Religion in Thedas is supposed to be a parallel of what we can find in your own world... thus it is very unlikely we are going to meet any gods like we could in D&D.

Old Gods seem to be the only exception since they have a confirmed physical existence of their own. But they could very well not be true gods at all...

CybAnt1 wrote...
Now it's interesting. Apparently before Andraste introduced faith in the Maker, it seems humans worshipped other gods beforehand - animal/nature gods. I think these are the "old gods" that Morrigan is referring to. And it seems like pagan Chasinds in the wild may keep worshipping some of them, even in the face of the new Chantry-Maker religion, hence her disbelief. 

As I see it, her excitement over giving birth to an "old god" may tie into a desire on her part to get rid of this new Maker religion crap and get people to return to their earlier paganism. And what better way to do that than to give birth to an old god? 

The Darkspawn are in some ways tied to the old gods ... I think this is something we're about to find out more about in Awakenings ... that's just imho.

The Archdemons are the Old Dragon Gods of the Tevinter Imperium - they weren't worshipped by all humans (there's an entry in the codex about the Lady of the Sky, who was worshipped by the ancestors of Fereldian
people). So no, I doubt Chasinds actually worship them. They definitely have gods of their own though.

As for Morrigan's motivations, who knows... she doesn't seem to hold religion as a whole in very high regard, which makes her interest in the Old Gods even more singular. My guess is she probably knows more about their true nature than we do...

It's not exactly clear to me whether the Maker faith is a form of monotheism or henotheism. IOW, are the Chantryists of the belief that the Maker is the ONLY god that exists (monotheism), or simply that he is greater and more worthy of worship than earlier human gods (henotheism). 

Also, and yes I guess the "lorists" will castigate me for not reading every possible codex entry on this, but it's not clear to me whether they believe the Maker created the entire universe, or just the world of Thedas itself (or if that's even a meaningful distinction).

Well, the annoying priestess on Denerim's Market Place sure loves to repeat again and again that there is only "one world"  and "one god".  So we know the Chantry's opinion on the subject.

Modifié par Maferath, 25 février 2010 - 04:25 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Maferath wrote...

As for Morrigan's motivations, who knows... she doesn't seem to hold religion as a whole in very high regard, which makes her interest in the Old Gods even more singular. My guess is she probably knows more about their true nature than we do...

I don't get why it's so hard to see why she would want to do this.
Perform a ritual to give your offspring godlike powers? Why not?

Also the idiot preistess shows a big flaw in her own doctrine. There is not only one world, there's the material and the fade.

[Doug84]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

metatheurgist wrote...

I think the Maker is one of the Old Gods. Probably that Trickster one. He's having a great laugh about the whole thing. The other gods aren't appreciating the whole trapped on Earth as as Darskpawn prank and are very bitter though.

I thought this when I first read the codex entry on the elven Dread Wolf god.
I thought to myself "I bet that's the "maker" and that's what actually happened. (For those who don't know, the codex entry says the elf religion says their gods were tricked into leaving the world through the machinations of the dread wolf, who is now the only god in the mortal realm)

Possibly! Still that demon's comments have me thinking still - he specifically said "There is no Maker." which suggests "No maker in any form"

The Dread Wolf god I hadn't read about (sadly didn't read that codex yet), but it sounds like an alternative version of the Old Gods being sealed away underground. Maybe Flemth was the Dread Wolf god left on the surface?

[Eternal Phoenix]

Doug84 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

The analogy between the Urn and the Holy Grail was obvious to me even before I began the Sacred Ashes quest. I'm like ... an Urn to heal a sick & dying arl ... very Arthurian.

Your analogy breaks down in one interesting way ... Andraste was female, and the Chantry seems mostly run by priestesses. A complete gender reversal to the medieval Church.

Indeed. Also note that the codex about The Maker contains re-worded bible verses. All that Bioware has done has mixed a few things up and instead of calling him God, they called him The Maker. When wondering past the Chantry and often hearing the priestesses preach I often think that I am playing a game set in this world while the name Templar comes up as I run past a Templar near the Chantry.

I don't know... God always stuck me as "Aggressive-Aggressive" not "Passive-Aggressive" like the Maker

Yes that was sometimes...then Jesus came along and it really turned to Passive-Passive.

Anyway I heard The Maker once had his city in the Fade, the Black city if The Maker was not true then the Black city would not have existed nor would the Urn.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Doug84 wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...

metatheurgist wrote...

I think the Maker is one of the Old Gods. Probably that Trickster one. He's having a great laugh about the whole thing. The other gods aren't appreciating the whole trapped on Earth as as Darskpawn prank and are very bitter though.

I thought this when I first read the codex entry on the elven Dread Wolf god.
I thought to myself "I bet that's the "maker" and that's what actually happened. (For those who don't know, the codex entry says the elf religion says their gods were tricked into leaving the world through the machinations of the dread wolf, who is now the only god in the mortal realm)

Possibly! Still that demon's comments have me thinking still - he specifically said "There is no Maker." which suggests "No maker in any form"

The Dread Wolf god I hadn't read about (sadly didn't read that codex yet), but it sounds like an alternative version of the Old Gods being sealed away underground. Maybe Flemth was the Dread Wolf god left on the surface?

I killed that demon and then I danced on his corpse and drank a healing potion!!