51 réponses à ce sujet

[Janni-in-VA]

If you click on the statues in the Dalish camp, then you learn about their gods. Most of these can be found, in some form or another, in Norse mythology where you have Loki, the trickster god. Of course, there are Native American mythologies which speak of Coyote as the trickster god, so we may be looking at a blend of the two.



"Also the idiot preistess [sic] shows a big flaw in her own doctrine. [sic]There is not only one world, there's the material and the fade."



The material and the Fade aren't two separate worlds, but two facets or planes of the one.



I wish I could remember which Codex entry it is....ah! It's the one on Dragon Cults. The dragons which we refer to as the Old Gods are not actually gods, but were worshiped as such by the Tevinter in the wake of the first blight:



"In the wake of the first blight, many desperate imperial citizens turned to the worship of dragons as a replacement for the Old Gods which had failed them. A dragon, after all, was a god-figure that they could see:..."



This information may put a slightly different spin on why Morrigan wants to bear a dragon-child. Hmmmm, okay following that line of reasoning...Morrigan, as we know, is not religious. So, she's likely to have a different (perhaps real?) understanding of what dragons truly are -- powerful beings, but not gods. (Wonder if she knows that Flemeth shape-shifts into a dragon? One would think so, since she learned her shape-shifting skills from Flemeth.) She says herself that the soul of the dragon is worth preserving in its own right, just as she believes that magical traditions outside Chantry and Circle are worth preserving. Certainly makes one wonder about the nature of that child, doesn't it.



I'm sorry, I'm digressing. I think we might realistically view the three basic religious views in Ferelden as mirroring similar lines of belief in our own world. The Chantry is a nod to monotheism, the dwarven Paragon worship is (as mentioned earlier) a form of ancestor worship, and the elven gods are a reference to paganism or polytheism. Morrigan (bless her contrary heart) is an atheist, which is an anti-religious view, so to speak. As to whether any of these gods truly exist and what their natures might be (demons? benevolent fade spirits? dragons?), in the world of Ferelden, as in our own, it's a matter of belief and faith.



Personally, I'm with Hamlet -- "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[Doug84]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

The analogy between the Urn and the Holy Grail was obvious to me even before I began the Sacred Ashes quest. I'm like ... an Urn to heal a sick & dying arl ... very Arthurian.

Your analogy breaks down in one interesting way ... Andraste was female, and the Chantry seems mostly run by priestesses. A complete gender reversal to the medieval Church.

Indeed. Also note that the codex about The Maker contains re-worded bible verses. All that Bioware has done has mixed a few things up and instead of calling him God, they called him The Maker. When wondering past the Chantry and often hearing the priestesses preach I often think that I am playing a game set in this world while the name Templar comes up as I run past a Templar near the Chantry.

I don't know... God always stuck me as "Aggressive-Aggressive" not "Passive-Aggressive" like the Maker

Yes that was sometimes...then Jesus came along and it really turned to Passive-Passive.

Anyway I heard The Maker once had his city in the Fade, the Black city if The Maker was not true then the Black city would not have existed nor would the Urn.

Old Testment God

LOVE ME OR DIEEE

New Testment God

Peace.

The Maker

Oh fine, you don't wanna worship me? Ok, I won't watch you. Though I will imprision you're so called 'Gods' underground.

*Goes off and sulks*

[Doug84]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Possibly! Still that demon's comments have me thinking still - he specifically said "There is no Maker." which suggests "No maker in any form"

The Dread Wolf god I hadn't read about (sadly didn't read that codex yet), but it sounds like an alternative version of the Old Gods being sealed away underground. Maybe Flemth was the Dread Wolf god left on the surface?

I killed that demon and then I danced on his corpse and drank a healing potion!!

To be fair to the smiley, is killing a demon and dancing on the corpse an evil thing?

[Feraele]

Godak wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

He -supposedly- burns crops and washes the land 'clean', but as in our own world, that might just be coincidence.

The Maker is never described as doing this.

Acutally, he is, sort of. He supposedly makes the sun cause a drought, "burning" the Imperium's crops. It's from one of the ghost dudes in the Gauntlet.

Yup the one that talks about hunger and how it felled their enemies.

[InvaderErl]

Doug84 wrote...

Old Testment God

LOVE ME OR DIEEE

And even then sometimes he'll wreck your day for the LOLZ.

[CybAnt1]

Possibly! Still that demon's comments have me thinking still - he specifically said "There is no Maker." which suggests "No maker in any form"

Sure, and if you're a demon trying to get rid of an annoying templar trying to banish you, what better thing to tell a religious zealot so that they'll hopefully buzz off? 

[CybAnt1]

Morrigan (bless her contrary heart) is an atheist, which is an anti-religious view, so to speak.

Well, there's no doubt about it -- she certainly hates the Chantry religion and thinks it is complete bunk. (Which is part of her dislike for Alistair and Leilana.) 

However, I seem to remember her saying something at some point about the Chasinds having their own gods of the wild, and I also remember her making some favorable comment of the elves' religion as well. She seems to be favorable to the gods of nature, the wild - just not this "Maker nonsense". Paganism vs. monotheism. 

[Frolk]

However, I seem to remember her saying something at some point about the Chasinds having their own gods of the wild...

I also seem to remember her referring to the Chasind as a superstitious bunch.

... and I also remember her making some favorable comment of the elves' religion as well. She seems to be favorable to the gods of nature, the wild - just not this "Maker nonsense". Paganism vs. monotheism.

Are you referring to the conversation in which Leliana suggests that the Maker intervened to save a Dalish man's life, and Morrigan rebuffed her, asking her how she knew it was the Maker and not some elven god?  I think Morrigan's point was that other religions exist, and Leliana had no better reason for her beliefs than anyone else.

My impression of her is that she's a skeptic, through and through.


As for my thoughts on the Maker, I can see that Bioware is trying to make its existence ambiguous.  While I can't know if the Maker exists or not in the Dragon Age universe, I can say that while roleplaying my first character as a Mary Sue, I believe my skepticism was justified.  Obviously, there's something to this whole Golden/Black city and Andraste, but just because the Chantry offers an explanation doesn't mean that it's the correct one.

[Doug84]

InvaderErl wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Old Testment God

LOVE ME OR DIEEE

And even then sometimes he'll wreck your day for the LOLZ.

True. OTG was the ultimate troll.

[Doug84]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Possibly! Still that demon's comments have me thinking still - he specifically said "There is no Maker." which suggests "No maker in any form"

Sure, and if you're a demon trying to get rid of an annoying templar trying to banish you, what better thing to tell a religious zealot so that they'll hopefully buzz off?

"I believe in God, no need to banish me, have a nice day" - to be honest, thats more likely to work if your trying to get rid of the heavily armed and angry version of those door-to-door Christians.

[Ahisgewaya]

Doug84 wrote...

"I believe in God, no need to banish me, have a nice day" - to be honest, thats more likely to work if your trying to get rid of the heavily armed and angry version of those door-to-door Christians.

Very nice and poignant response.

[Doug84]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

"I believe in God, no need to banish me, have a nice day" - to be honest, thats more likely to work if your trying to get rid of the heavily armed and angry version of those door-to-door Christians.

Very nice and poignant response.

Thank you, I try

[krylo]

Elton John is dead wrote...

and your character is an idiot who can even deny the maker even after seeing that Andreste's ashes have spirits and some man who teleports around the place with a beard guarding it and this man also knows what you've done in your past, and the ashes themselves actually heal people proving that the story is true, yet your character still has the option of going up to people saying the Maker is a lie? Hmm your character should have only be allowed to say stuff like that before finding the urn, after your character found the urn such diologue options shouldn't have even have came up. But I suppose if you want your character to be an idiot and you like him/her saying dumb stuff and you run around naked allowing people to beat you up and rely on team members to win a battle while you are naked on the ground unconscious....I suppose you can then.

Bring Oghren to the gauntlet.

He mentions that there's so much lyrium in that mountain that it makes his nose tingle and asks the guardian what is REALLY keeping him alive.  The Guardian merely replies that it's not his place to question--which is to say he doesn't actually know.  The urn's healing powers could very well have to do with being infused with centuries worth of lyrium vapors.

There's no reason to assume that she is holy.

Especially considering the amount of work the writing team put into making certain that her being holy wasn't a foregone conclusion.  A book gift which, in the description, says that it's all about proving that Andraste may have simply been a powerful mage, or even abomination, and not a holy woman at all.  Oghren's statements in the gauntlet suggesting strongly that the gauntlet was powered by nothing more than lyrium and perhaps some ancient mage's spells.  Other races that all agree that Andraste wasn't holy at all--even if they don't agree on specifics past that.  Sections of humanity that don't recognize her.  Etc. etc.

You're very strongly jumping the gun.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Anyway I heard The
Maker once had his city in the Fade, the Black city if The Maker was
not true then the Black city would not have existed

The Chantry says the Black City was once golden and belonged to the maker.

We don't know this.

Wynne in the very beginning if you talk to her at Ostagar says as much.  "The story may be true, or it may simply be allegory."

For all we know the Black City could be some kind of nexus of magical power devoid of intelligence.  It could be the kingdom of the Old Gods the Tevinters worshipped before turning to dragon worship.  It could be just some dream that got positioned in such a way that it is visible from every point in the fade.  

We know literally nothing of the Black City.  All we have is Chantry rhetoric, which is unlikely to be completely reliable even IF The Maker exists.


In other words, put down the Maker flags and read some codex entries, replay the game with some other party members, and pay attention to the world at large.

[Vengeful Nature]

And then there's this. This is, for me, the most likely explanation, since if Andraste was a powerful mage, it would explain how she managed to convince the barbaric mud-house Fereldans of her time, and also why her ashes have special attributes.

And also, as someone mentioned, the mountain is thick with lyrium. It could well be a mixture of both, the lyrium around the shrine maintaining the ashes potency instead of it just leaching of into the Fade.

Mind you, I don't think this makes Andraste any less of a hero. It just means we can respect her asa human, rather than, arguably, doing what a certain real world religion did and attributing a persons great actions to a beardy man in the clouds. 

[Doug84]

krylo wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

and your character is an idiot who can even deny the maker even after seeing that Andreste's ashes have spirits and some man who teleports around the place with a beard guarding it and this man also knows what you've done in your past, and the ashes themselves actually heal people proving that the story is true, yet your character still has the option of going up to people saying the Maker is a lie? Hmm your character should have only be allowed to say stuff like that before finding the urn, after your character found the urn such diologue options shouldn't have even have came up. But I suppose if you want your character to be an idiot and you like him/her saying dumb stuff and you run around naked allowing people to beat you up and rely on team members to win a battle while you are naked on the ground unconscious....I suppose you can then.

Bring Oghren to the gauntlet.

He mentions that there's so much lyrium in that mountain that it makes his nose tingle and asks the guardian what is REALLY keeping him alive.  The Guardian merely replies that it's not his place to question--which is to say he doesn't actually know.  The urn's healing powers could very well have to do with being infused with centuries worth of lyrium vapors.

There's no reason to assume that she is holy.

Especially considering the amount of work the writing team put into making certain that her being holy wasn't a foregone conclusion.  A book gift which, in the description, says that it's all about proving that Andraste may have simply been a powerful mage, or even abomination, and not a holy woman at all.  Oghren's statements in the gauntlet suggesting strongly that the gauntlet was powered by nothing more than lyrium and perhaps some ancient mage's spells.  Other races that all agree that Andraste wasn't holy at all--even if they don't agree on specifics past that.  Sections of humanity that don't recognize her.  Etc. etc.

You're very strongly jumping the gun.

I've nothing much to add, but I strongly agree. Also, there is no reason the Warden can't say he does not believe in the Maker if the Ashes were certain proof - he can do the real world version of trolling on the chanters, heh.

Elton John is dead wrote...

Anyway I heard The
Maker once had his city in the Fade, the Black city if The Maker was
not true then the Black city would not have existed

The Chantry says the Black City was once golden and belonged to the maker.

We don't know this.

Wynne in the very beginning if you talk to her at Ostagar says as much.  "The story may be true, or it may simply be allegory."

For all we know the Black City could be some kind of nexus of magical power devoid of intelligence.  It could be the kingdom of the Old Gods the Tevinters worshipped before turning to dragon worship.  It could be just some dream that got positioned in such a way that it is visible from every point in the fade.  

We know literally nothing of the Black City.  All we have is Chantry rhetoric, which is unlikely to be completely reliable even IF The Maker exists.


In other words, put down the Maker flags and read some codex entries, replay the game with some other party members, and pay attention to the world at large.

Agreed also, though I do have to wonder:

If the Maker doesn't exist, who made the Black city and why? In fact, who either created the Fade or the Real world (whichever one REALLY came second).

Modifié par Doug84, 26 février 2010 - 12:25 .

[krylo]

Doug84 wrote...



If the Maker doesn't exist, who made the Black city and why? In fact, who either created the Fade or the Real world (whichever one REALLY came second).

Well we don't know it's even a city.  It KINDA looks like one from where we are, kinda.  But it could be anything.

As to who made it/the fade/Thedas sans maker: Ask an atheist scientist the same question about our world.  Similar answers apply.

Alternatively, gather a member from every religion on the planet, including the dead ones, and ask them the same question.  Choose one at random.

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 12:33 .

[Janni-in-VA]

"Well, there's no doubt about it -- she certainly hates the Chantry religion and thinks it is complete bunk. (Which is part of her dislike for Alistair and Leilana.)"



She certainly has a problem with authority figures, and the Chantry does set itself up as the ultimate moral authority.



"Oghren's statements in the gauntlet suggesting strongly that the gauntlet was powered by nothing more than lyrium and perhaps some ancient mage's spells."

Before you begin to explore the ruined temple, Brother Genitivi tells you that the Maker is believed to watch over Andraste's resting place. If you question him about that, he'll tell you, "Well, it sounds better than saying, 'Willie toiled for months on a device which would shove a spear up the arse of the unwary.'" Mythology and allegory certainly have their places in religious thought, but shouldn't be mistaken for cold, hard fact.



Also, while Andraste was considered favored by the Maker and therefore revered, it was not until after her death that the Andrastian cult which would become the Chantry began to see her as "holy."



"Alternatively, gather a member from every religion on the planet, including the dead ones, and ask them the same question. Choose one at random."



Yes, the only consensus you'll get is that the world somehow came into being through an intelligence of some kind.

[Doug84]

krylo wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
If the Maker doesn't exist, who made the Black city and why? In fact, who either created the Fade or the Real world (whichever one REALLY came second).

Well we don't know it's even a city.  It KINDA looks like one from where we are, kinda.  But it could be anything.

As to who made it/the fade/Thedas sans maker: Ask an atheist scientist the same question about our world.  Similar answers apply.

Alternatively, gather a member from every religion on the planet, including the dead ones, and ask them the same question.  Choose one at random.

True, I suppose - it just looked like a city to me... Oh well. And I'm agnoist myself primarily because there is still a remote outside chance there is a god

Anywho, ok, next question...Where do we think the Old Gods and the Darkspawn came from? They are connected somehow, and I can imagine the Darkspawn developing on their own, but I don't see how they would develop on their own AND be connected to such beings as the Old Gods.

[krylo]

Doug84 wrote...
Anywho, ok, next question...Where do we think the Old Gods and the Darkspawn came from? They are connected somehow, and I can imagine the Darkspawn developing on their own, but I don't see how they would develop on their own AND be connected to such beings as the Old Gods.

"Then, just as the frightened technicians felt they could hold their  breath no longer, there was a sudden springing to life of the teletype attached to that portion of Multivac. Five words were printed: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Modifié par krylo, 26 février 2010 - 02:22 .

[Doug84]

krylo wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
Anywho, ok, next question...Where do we think the Old Gods and the Darkspawn came from? They are connected somehow, and I can imagine the Darkspawn developing on their own, but I don't see how they would develop on their own AND be connected to such beings as the Old Gods.

"Then, just as the frightened technicians felt they could hold their  breath no longer, there was a sudden springing to life of the teletype attached to that portion of Multivac. Five words were printed: INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER."

Touche! You win this round. :innocent:

[CybAnt1]

Commandment one of the DA tablets is "keep religion mysterious". I absolutely expected the writing team to leave many of these things open to double interpretations; for Oghren, it's just a mountain full of lyrium; for Leli, it's the real presence of the Maker.



They will, I believe, keep this argument going in future expansions/sequels. But I'm sure there will be all kinds of teasers & clues coming to push people in the various directions (the Maker isn't real, the Maker is real but ... not what we think he/it is, the Maker is ... real? But even if it is, it might not correspond to what we think of as a big g or little g "god"?)



I do think we're going to find out more about the nature of the darkspawn in Awakenings.

[Doug84]

CybAnt1 wrote...
I do think we're going to find out more about the nature of the darkspawn in Awakenings.

Definitely! I've been avoiding trailers to avoid spoilers - though I think I heard one of them talking! A prime opportunity to explore the origins of the Darkspawn....

That or have "Darkspawn" as a playable race in DA 2 

[Marik333]

Just because I'm a stickler for these sorts of things, a quick summary of Thedosian religions for the otherwise uninformed:



Chantry:

-Preaches Chant of Light, monotheistic; believes in the principles of the First and Second Sins, reveres Andraste, believes that the Maker won't stop pouting until the entire world is screaming... er, "singing" the Chant; the Golden City was turned Black by the Magisters of the Ancient Imperium, leading to darkspawn and nugs and all sorts of other terrible things that magic should be blamed for



Dalish:

-Polytheistic; believe that their gods were tricked by the Dread Wolf (who wanders the Fade still), and can no longer contact, or be contacted by, the mortal world; Seem to be two "factions" of gods, although specifics are, for the most part, lost to the ages



The Old Gods:

-Polytheistic; worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium, who believed that they appeared as dragons, and taught the Magisters the secrets of magic by whispering to them in dreams; some now suspect that the Old Gods may have just been uberdragons that cultified the Imperium, or somesuch



Chasind/Other Wilderfolk:

-Polytheistic, wide variety of traditions stemming from at least 1 common source; the Mountain People worship gods like the Lady of the Sky and Hakkon Wintersbreath; Completely SEPARATE system of belief from the elven gods AND the Old Gods (unless they can eventually all be traced back to a common source)



Was there anything I missed?

[krylo]

Marik333 wrote...

Just because I'm a stickler for these sorts of things, a quick summary of Thedosian religions for the otherwise uninformed:

Chantry:
-Preaches Chant of Light, monotheistic; believes in the principles of the First and Second Sins, reveres Andraste, believes that the Maker won't stop pouting until the entire world is screaming... er, "singing" the Chant; the Golden City was turned Black by the Magisters of the Ancient Imperium, leading to darkspawn and nugs and all sorts of other terrible things that magic should be blamed for

Dalish:
-Polytheistic; believe that their gods were tricked by the Dread Wolf (who wanders the Fade still), and can no longer contact, or be contacted by, the mortal world; Seem to be two "factions" of gods, although specifics are, for the most part, lost to the ages

The Old Gods:
-Polytheistic; worshipped by the Tevinter Imperium, who believed that they appeared as dragons, and taught the Magisters the secrets of magic by whispering to them in dreams; some now suspect that the Old Gods may have just been uberdragons that cultified the Imperium, or somesuch

Chasind/Other Wilderfolk:
-Polytheistic, wide variety of traditions stemming from at least 1 common source; the Mountain People worship gods like the Lady of the Sky and Hakkon Wintersbreath; Completely SEPARATE system of belief from the elven gods AND the Old Gods (unless they can eventually all be traced back to a common source)

Was there anything I missed?

Dorfs.

Believe the stone has a will of its own and that the spirits of their ancestors go to it.  Form of ancestor worship.  Don't actually believe in any 'gods' per say.

[Leukael]

Elfseeker wrote...

We learn, if we care to, about Andraste and how she 'spread the word' in time-honored fashion(by the sword and the bow). Sure, some good came of it, but largely it was an invasion to make 'unbelievers' 'repent' and join the big cuddly group of Maker-tagalongs. But nevermind that.

I have a theory(not game-supported in any way) that the 'maker' she followed was merely an entity of supernatural powers from the Fade or similar place. Not that she was an abomination, or anything...though that is certainly possible, if we consider Flemeth.
He gives her powers to strike down her enemies. Of course, no extradimensional entity has ever been described to do such a thing for its own purposes, right? 
He -supposedly- burns crops and washes the land 'clean', but as in our own world, that might just be coincidence.
My point is that this being is -not- all-powerful. just plenty powerful enough to make him/her/itself a nice little thrall to build a powerbase with(gained powers, grew distant from the people who knew her). As to the benevolent tones of the chant....does not mean anything, so long as those involved think in good ways about the being. So long as they -believe-.
As for why it has not done more, showed it new power or whatever...would defeat the purpose. Also, suspect such a being would have a few more options open than just Ferelden and Thedas.

As for the maker bidding Leliana help you defeat the Blight? Simple; the Blight would wipe out it's steady supply of belief. 

Ultimately, of course, she may just have been a 'jesus'; someone with unusual abilities building a powerbase for -themselves-.

To be quite honest Wynne's plot provides an interesting insight into what Andraste could've been . . . especially if it happened to her much younger in life.  It would all play into the idea of her being a powerful mage as well.  I have pretty much come to that conclusion for myself.  The scope of the Maker's power or perhaps his buds in the fade (who knows the social mechanics of the spirits of the fade anyhow) is something I couldn't hazard a guess at, but at least I have a notion about Andraste in her time.