215 réponses à ce sujet

[Mlow44]

Nikitn wrote...

Scottthesnow wrote...

ME2 had a much weaker view of science than the first one had. Indeed it was one of the charms it had. In my opinion it added to the believability of the environment, I felt more invested in the characters and equipment. ME2, did seem to break some of the things ME1 had right. It had its victories, but some changes made no sense.

Come on folks, the gas masks were lame, they are just hard to defend. Pointing out a flaw in ME1 does not make it better, it just makes both games look worse.

I agree with Ammo being retarded, but its a game design decision, kind of like bio-gel in the first, or the mako with its fatal-bouncing (those two never made me stop playing the game, like ammo did however). Its in a different category as the gas masks.

Finally, this is done in other threads. It features the same heart-felt critique, thoughtful dialog, and mindless retaliations found in other places.

good post man. So true, so true...

PS. What happened to the mako? why did they remove it? Scanning Gas giants for metals (i presume you are really scanning the moons, but still) gets pretty idiotic after a while. Another thing, even DWARF PLANETS have as much scanning area as the biggest rock planets! How the hell can a probe find, and extract huge amounts of resources? Even in extreme temperatures/gravity enviroments?? We didn't have this nonesence in ME1.

they got rid of the mako due to popular demand. i think overall, people are probably happier to spend a grand total of an hour-an hour and a half scanning planets than spending several hours driving around to collect all the minerals and matriarch writings etc. but they are bringing in the Hammerhead, so we get to see what they have planned for vehicle gameplay soon enough

and i think gas masks are more science fiction style than full space suits. using the advanced technology of kinetic shields and biotic barriers to overcome hostile environments is way more futuristic than armoring yourself up. i don't see how that's hard to defend at all. if everything had to abide by the technology we can realistically conceive of now, it wouldn't be science fiction.

[DaveTheJackal]

Nikitn wrote...

First of all, YES. I know that bioware aren't scientists. But when they make wild claims in ME2 and spout noneseance data, they need to back this up. I do not like it when developers simply make up garbage and break established laws of physics & so on so that their game looks fancy for a 14 year old. Only conclusion I can draw from this is, that the team developing ME1 and ME2 were different ones.

I mean seriously, there are so many logical fails, breaking of laws of physics and so on in ME2 that it is amazing. Examples:

In ME2: The ridiculous notion that Earth size planets can form at the outer edge of a solar system, and even support a dense athmosphere. Impossible due 2 the fact that terrestial planets only form close to the sun for reasons I cba 2 explain (short version: in the beginning of a solar system, there is only dust around the star. The heavier material the dust is made of, the closer it is to the sun. If the material is light, it can be further away from the sun. this is due 2 gravity).

Hell, even if a terrestial planet on the size of earth somehow managed to form in the outer part of the solar system - I don't see how a super cold planet could support an athmosphere (we must also take into account that a planet needs a certain amount of metalls in its core to provide a magnetic field and thus protect its athmosphere). Look at Jupiter's moon Europa. Sure the Sun could be much larger (in terms of mass) and thus emit much more radiation than the sun - but in that case there simply would be more planets around the Sun as well from what I understand. The entire mass of the solar system would increase if the Sun's mass would increase. In ME1 we didn't have such noneseance.

In ME2: LOL people like Miranda and Jack can go out in space or ice-cold planets WITHOUT COVERING THEIR ENTIRE BODY WITH ISOLATING SUITS. I mean all they have is their normal clothes and an oxygen mask... lmao I don't even need to explain why this is retarded. In ME1 we didn't have such noneseance.

In ME2: In some planets it stands that you cannot breathe the air: But you still can land on them and not even use the breathing mask! In ME1 we didn't have such noneseance.

In ME2: Poorly desinged levels. For example, in Geth Heretics base you could find med packs.. rofl why would geth need med packs? In ME1 we didn't have such noneseance.

In ME2: Dumb, useless thermal clips. Even from a technological POW it is a step BACK from not using thermal clips (and it is funny how all weapons in the entire ME universe started using thermal clips in 2 years). I enjoyed the interesting lore in ME. Simply ****ting on it so you could have a super-action-shooter is very bad.

In ME2: Complete lack of knowledge of basic physics. They claim a lvl 4 charge can do the force of 800 newtons. Yet they fail at realizing that the force of 800 newtons is completely insignificant if done on an instance. If your weight is 80kg gravity on earth is constantly using a force of almost 800 newtons at keeping you on the ground.

In ME1: this is a bit blurry as well here, with the "pull" force pulling ppl away with a force of 1200 newtons at highest lvl. Well pushing some1's entire body with the force of 1200 newtons upwards and back WILL make a guy who is not prepared be thrown upwards and back, or at least pushed back. Depends on the mass (weight) of the target and on what kind of gravity enviroment it is. Another thing is that "charge" performs a force of 80 kg (800newton=almost 80kg on earth) on a target at once. It is not specified over how long the force of 1200 newton is applied on pull in ME1.

What happened to the mako? why did they remove it? Scanning
Gas giants for metals (i presume you are really scanning the moons, but
still) gets pretty idiotic after a while. Another thing, even DWARF PLANETS
have as much scanning area as the biggest rock planets! How the hell
can a probe find, and extract huge amounts of resources? Even in extreme temperatures/gravity enviroments?? We didn't have this nonesence in ME1.

I also miss binary suns and solar systems in both games, but it isn't so serious as deliberately BSing.

I am sorry if this thread offends ME2 fanboys/people who would rather die than play 2 hours of ME1 or any other real RPG.

I lied I did read it so here are my considerations:

FORCES

800N is the force required to decelerate a 1kg weight travelling at 800m/s in 1 second. You're saying that's not going to hurt?

The only reason we don't feel the weight of our bodies is that our skeleton distributes the work across our muscles so each does a little.

But yes, if they really wanted to be accurate they'd for some reason use the weight of the person.

So, for example, a person of 80kg weight, thrown at 800N would be travelling at 10km/h after a second, 20km/h after to and so on. The damage inflicted would increase the further they flew, but after 1 second, it's going to hurt, especially if it's your head.

Assuming 10m/s/s accelleration, 1 second of throw is the equivalent of falling s 5m, 2 seconds will be 30m, 3 seconds 45m. Ouch!

I guess lift is another issue, but since the recipients tend to float slowly around, we can safely assume they're not being damaged by impacts.

Plus, it's a game, the force ratings are just a guide to the power of an effect.

PS. isn't g 9.8m/s/s, not 10?

PLANETS

We have no way of knowing if terrestrial planets form in outer solar systems. A couple of years ago they thought gas giants didn't form close to starts, until they looked. Hot Jupiter anyone?

I pretty much can't be bothered answering your other points, because they're common scifi conceits, but the worst mockery of planetary formation/ecology etc that ever took place in scifi has to be Yavin IV in starwars. It's the satellite of a gas giant and will spend half it's time in complete darkness/shadow. Why the hell does it have life, never mind trees on it!?!?!?

You forgot to mention, FTL travel, gravity on ships and heaps of other junk that just isn't important.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 25 février 2010 - 10:38 .

[TJSolo]

Mlow44 wrote...

and i think gas masks are more science fiction style than full space suits. using the advanced technology of kinetic shields and biotic barriers to overcome hostile environments is way more futuristic than armoring yourself up. i don't see how that's hard to defend at all. if everything had to abide by the technology we can realistically conceive of now, it wouldn't be science fiction.

Except that mass effect shields are not in constant use to protect a person from environmental hazards.
Per the codex(the rules BW made for ME) creating and maintaining such shields is too draining for a person even for the armor-suits. The mass effect shields only activate when objects are traveling towards a suit at a certain speed, not on all the time, in order to preserve the shields power cell.
A suit is required to protect from the constant threat of temperature, germs, and slow moving debris.

Reading the codex it is clear this time the BW team didn't even follow their own science rules.

[Blind Lark]

science Fiction. (capital F)

[Nikitn]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Nikitn wrote...

First of all, YES. I know that bioware aren't scientists. But when they make wild claims in ME2 and spout noneseance data, they need to back this up. I do not like it when developers simply make up garbage and break established laws of physics & so on so that their game looks fancy for a 14 year old. Only conclusion I can draw from this is, that the team developing ME1 and ME2 were different ones.

I mean seriously, there are so many logical fails, breaking of laws of physics and so on in ME2 that it is amazing. Examples:

In ME2: The ridiculous notion that Earth size planets can form at the outer edge of a solar system, and even support a dense athmosphere. Impossible due 2 the fact that terrestial planets only form close to the sun for reasons I cba 2 explain (short version: in the beginning of a solar system, there is only dust around the star. The heavier material the dust is made of, the closer it is to the sun. If the material is light, it can be further away from the sun. this is due 2 gravity).

Hell, even if a terrestial planet on the size of earth somehow managed to form in the outer part of the solar system - I don't see how a super cold planet could support an athmosphere (we must also take into account that a planet needs a certain amount of metalls in its core to provide a magnetic field and thus protect its athmosphere). Look at Jupiter's moon Europa. Sure the Sun could be much larger (in terms of mass) and thus emit much more radiation than the sun - but in that case there simply would be more planets around the Sun as well from what I understand. The entire mass of the solar system would increase if the Sun's mass would increase. In ME1 we didn't have such noneseance.

In ME2: LOL people like Miranda and Jack can go out in space or ice-cold planets WITHOUT COVERING THEIR ENTIRE BODY WITH ISOLATING SUITS. I mean all they have is their normal clothes and an oxygen mask... lmao I don't even need to explain why this is retarded. In ME1 we didn't have such noneseance.

In ME2: In some planets it stands that you cannot breathe the air: But you still can land on them and not even use the breathing mask! In ME1 we didn't have such noneseance.

In ME2: Poorly desinged levels. For example, in Geth Heretics base you could find med packs.. rofl why would geth need med packs? In ME1 we didn't have such noneseance.

In ME2: Dumb, useless thermal clips. Even from a technological POW it is a step BACK from not using thermal clips (and it is funny how all weapons in the entire ME universe started using thermal clips in 2 years). I enjoyed the interesting lore in ME. Simply ****ting on it so you could have a super-action-shooter is very bad.

In ME2: Complete lack of knowledge of basic physics. They claim a lvl 4 charge can do the force of 800 newtons. Yet they fail at realizing that the force of 800 newtons is completely insignificant if done on an instance. If your weight is 80kg gravity on earth is constantly using a force of almost 800 newtons at keeping you on the ground.

In ME1: this is a bit blurry as well here, with the "pull" force pulling ppl away with a force of 1200 newtons at highest lvl. Well pushing some1's entire body with the force of 1200 newtons upwards and back WILL make a guy who is not prepared be thrown upwards and back, or at least pushed back. Depends on the mass (weight) of the target and on what kind of gravity enviroment it is. Another thing is that "charge" performs a force of 80 kg (800newton=almost 80kg on earth) on a target at once. It is not specified over how long the force of 1200 newton is applied on pull in ME1.

What happened to the mako? why did they remove it? Scanning
Gas giants for metals (i presume you are really scanning the moons, but
still) gets pretty idiotic after a while. Another thing, even DWARF PLANETS
have as much scanning area as the biggest rock planets! How the hell
can a probe find, and extract huge amounts of resources? Even in extreme temperatures/gravity enviroments?? We didn't have this nonesence in ME1.

I also miss binary suns and solar systems in both games, but it isn't so serious as deliberately BSing.

I am sorry if this thread offends ME2 fanboys/people who would rather die than play 2 hours of ME1 or any other real RPG.

I lied I did read it so here are my considerations:

FORCES

800N is the force required to decelerate a 1kg weight travelling at 800kph in 1 second. You're saying that's not going to hurt?

The only reason we don't feel the weight of our bodies is that our skeleton distributes the work across our muscles so each does a little.

But yes, if they really wanted to be accurate they'd for some reason use the weight of the person.

So, for example, a person of 80kg weight, thrown at 800N would be travelling at 10km/h after a second, 20km/h after to and so on. The damage inflicted would increase the further they flew, but after 1 second, it's going to hurt, especially if it's your head.

Assuming 10m/s/s accelleration, 1 second of throw is the equivalent of falling s 5m, 2 seconds will be 30m, 3 seconds 45m. Ouch!

I guess lift is another issue, but since the recipients tend to float slowly around, we can safely assume they're not being damaged by impacts.

Plus, it's a game, the force ratings are just a guide to the power of an effect.

PS. isn't g 9.8m/s/s, not 10?

PLANETS

We have no way of knowing if terrestrial planets form in outer solar systems. A couple of years ago they thought gas giants didn't form close to starts, until they looked. Hot Jupiter anyone?

I pretty much can't be bothered answering your other points, because they're common scifi conceits, but the worst mockery of planetary formation/ecology etc that ever took place in scifi has to be Yavin IV in starwars. It's the satellite of a gas giant and will spend half it's time in complete darkness/shadow. Why the hell does it have life, never mind trees on it!?!?!?

You forgot to mention, FTL travel, gravity on ships and heaps of other junk that just isn't important.

Yes a good post (heh, anything which isn't a flame in this thread is good post - I appear to have been sucsesfull at trolling the ME2 fanbois). I have to say this though: Force of 800 newtons may seem allot, but in reality it isn't. A good Boxer can produce the force of 6000 Newtons fairly easily in a punch (though obviously it is on a small impact area).

FTL travel is apparantly possible because element zero can reduce and increase mass. Dunno what is wrong with artificial gravity - there are many ways to produce it theoretically.

[Nikitn]

PilotJoe wrote...

Look, you don't have to be an astrophysicist genius to follow some simple rules of internal universe consistency, and that's what the OP (i believe) is griping about.

ME1 had some good, rational explanations for the fiction in the universe. It worked, was believable, and was consistent with the gameplay.

ME2 came along and basically sh*t on alot of those rules with ammo clips (call them 'thermal clips' and you're getting punched - jk), Magic-like biotic powers (teleporting, or "charging"), and people who can walk around hazardous environments with a face mask and open-cleavage spandex suit.

It's lazy design, it's jarring, and it breaks immersion and enjoyment.

good post. Damn I agree with you on everything. Hopefully bioware won't go the path Creative assembly did. Stop making good, niche games so they can appeal to the FPS hordes (no offence).

gas giants can never form close 2 a star.

Modifié par Nikitn, 26 février 2010 - 02:09 .

[FataliTensei]

Nikitn wrote...

PilotJoe wrote...

Look, you don't have to be an astrophysicist genius to follow some simple rules of internal universe consistency, and that's what the OP (i believe) is griping about.

ME1 had some good, rational explanations for the fiction in the universe. It worked, was believable, and was consistent with the gameplay.

ME2 came along and basically sh*t on alot of those rules with ammo clips (call them 'thermal clips' and you're getting punched - jk), Magic-like biotic powers (teleporting, or "charging"), and people who can walk around hazardous environments with a face mask and open-cleavage spandex suit.

It's lazy design, it's jarring, and it breaks immersion and enjoyment.

good post. Damn I agree with you on everything. Hopefully bioware won't go the path Creative assembly did. Stop making good, niche games so they can appeal to the FPS hordes (no offence).

It seems like thats the only crowd people care to appeal to anymore

[withateethuh]

Mass Effects developers do a far better job of making a cohesive universe than any other mainstream science fiction that I'm aware of. Obviously scientific realism would take the whole creativity and excitement out of the experience, unless you like the idea of playing a game where you're sitting in a status pod for 40 hours.



The thing is that our scientific knowledge of the universe and laws of physics and stuff is still very infantile. A lot of aspects of scientific knowledge, especially when it comes to the cosmos and beyond, are just highly (very highly) educated assumptions based on our limited understanding. A lot of the mainstream theories about the universe and gravity and space-time etc. require certain elements to the system that we can only predict actually exist because they are required to make the whole system work (Higgs-Boson). I.e. we assume that something like a black hole has the properties that we say it has only from observational data. I'm no scientist but a key thing to remember about science is that it consist of theories, and theories are not 100%.



To criticize a science fiction game for not being scientifically accurate enough is just stupid. Especially when Mass Effect incorporates so much modern scientific understanding into it. Reading the codex is one of the best parts of the game, because it really creates the sense that this world is cohesive. This isn't a fantasy world like Star Wars or Star Trek, this is something grounded in reality to a far greater extent than most creative minds would dare to.

[TJSolo]

withateethuh wrote...

To criticize a science fiction game for not being scientifically accurate enough is just stupid. Especially when Mass Effect incorporates so much modern scientific understanding into it. Reading the codex is one of the best parts of the game, because it really creates the sense that this world is cohesive. This isn't a fantasy world like Star Wars or Star Trek, this is something grounded in reality to a far greater extent than most creative minds would dare to.

The codex is one of the issues in ME2.
There are things in ME2 that go against the codex and other established rules.

[DaveTheJackal]

RE Thermal clips. What they should have done is have ammo replenish slowly, so that, effectively the disposable clips behaved like less effective versions of the built in heat sinks of the first game, with the bonus of being able to eject a clip for a quick reload.

I can see that if I am mid combat, waiting 10-15 seconds for the cooldown would be inconvenient, but after I wait a minute, chatting or whatever, surely my sinks should have cooled down, even if they're disposable?

Surely not THAT big a programming task.
You might even say it's the sort of thing they could add in a patch?

PS All serialised Scifi from starwars to startrek to Dr Who to BSG contradicts itself fairly frequently. Even if the fans often manage to bend the meaning of information so it kinda holds together. I don't see it as a big issue.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 25 février 2010 - 10:49 .

[Nikitn]

.I disagree

Modifié par Nikitn, 09 juin 2010 - 10:19 .

[TheGreenLion]

Nikitn wrote...

.I disagree

just let yer thread die dude, your arguement was made and debated 3 months ago...you don't get popularity points if you have a thread on the front page.

[Stanley Woo]

Please don't resurrect threads if you're not going to discuss anything new.



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