125 réponses à ce sujet

[challenger18]

I would like for them to use the persuade option ala DAO. To me, being a goody-two shoes or an apathetic ass doesn't mean you're good at persuading people. It's a skill all its own that has to do with being able to read someone and now exactly what to say back to get what you want rather than taking the morally high or low ground constantly in any situation.

I'd also like to see it change for the simple fact that I know that people feel chained to always picking one alignment option to the point where they would never even consider picking anything else. To me, DAO was much more enjoyable because you held no allegiance to any alignment, you just picked dialogue options that you felt best suited the situation and character, with some options being good, some being bad, some being neutral and some even being funny. If you had a high coercion skill you could persuade people to do **** for you. That's how I would like ME, but hey keep the colored differences when you try to persuade, so you can choose if you'd like to charm someone or threaten them depending on the situation. I'm usually a paragon mixed with some renegade; I like to charm people, but some ****s I meet (like the batarian group in the hallway leading to Afterlife) I just want to threaten them for being dicks for no reason and it's more satisfying doing that than them having the last word as a paragon.

Eh, just my rambling thoughts.

Modifié par challenger18, 25 février 2010 - 07:01 .

[Durpmeister1]

challenger18 wrote...

I would like for them to use the persuade option ala DAO. To me, being a goody-two shoes or an apathetic ass doesn't mean you're good at persuading people. It's a skill all its own that has to do with being able to read someone and now exactly what to say back to get what you want rather than taking the morally high or low ground constantly in any situation.

I'd also like to see it change for the simple fact that I know that people feel chained to always picking one alignment option to the point where they would never even consider picking anything else. To me, DAO was much more enjoyable because you held no allegiance to any alignment, you just picked dialogue options that you felt best suited the situation and character, with some options being good, some being bad, some being neutral and some even being funny. If you had a high coercion skill you could persuade people to do **** for you. That's how I would like ME, but hey keep the colored differences when you try to persuade, so you can choose if you'd like to charm someone or threaten them depending on the situation. I'm usually a paragon mixed with some renegade; I like to charm people, but some ****s I meet (like the batarian group in the hallway leading to Afterlife) I just want to threaten them for being dicks for no reason and it's more satisfying doing that than them having the last word as a paragon.

Eh, just my rambling thoughts.

The thing is, the paragon Shepard in this game didn't always "charm" people. He even threatened and berated people for doing the wrong thing. I mean, you don't need to look any further than the situation where the Quarian was apprehended by the C-Sec, or when Mordin was trying to defend his use of the genophage. One thing that surprised me the most in ME2 was how aggressive the paragon Shepard was as opposed to what I had expected. It played more into the tone of the situation as opposed to a "goody-two shoes" cliche that I had expected.

[Frotality]

DAO style aligment: aka NONE.

im sick of being told whether or not a certain dialogue choice is naughty or nice, kinda utterly destroys all moral ambiguity bioware.

but ive described my protests to this self-defeating morality system elsewhere, so in short: i agree OP.

[Nightwriter]

I believe that, like in DA:O, your dialogue choices should be based on your persuasion skill.



However, I believe that unlike DA:O, the game should also still have a paragon/renegade meter under the hood, strictly as a game mechanic, keeping track of the nature of your decisions (this meter would have no effect on actual playing). This way the game can form a behind the scene composite of who your character is.



The paragon/renegade meter does come with plusses. You make enough good decisions and the game will start to acknowledge the fact that you are a good person. People will begin to see you that way, and respond accordingly. I like this. It personalizes my gaming experience.

[Meistr_Chef]

Nightwriter wrote...

I believe that, like in DA:O, your dialogue choices should be based on your persuasion skill.

However, I believe that unlike DA:O, the game should also still have a paragon/renegade meter under the hood, strictly as a game mechanic, keeping track of the nature of your decisions (this meter would have no effect on actual playing). This way the game can form a behind the scene composite of who your character is.

The paragon/renegade meter does come with plusses. You make enough good decisions and the game will start to acknowledge the fact that you are a good person. People will begin to see you that way, and respond accordingly. I like this. It personalizes my gaming experience.

But the game appears to be optimized for those who play along with Bioware's two main branches, ie mostly paragon or mostly renegade.

The ones who mix it up all the time tend to suffer more from a gameplay choice perspective...maybe that's the tradeoff we have to make? Stick with a more "canon-like" character and we let you make some key choices...fool around all the time and we taketh those choices from you. There needs to be some other rewards for those who are morally ambivalent.

[Riot Inducer]

on a side note, are you guys sure persuade/intimidate were directly tied to paragon in ME1? I remember we only got the option of 3 points in each before becoming a specter and afterwards they both opened up with some free bonus points. I distinctly remember having a nearly full paragon bar and only a sliver of renegade yet still about equal persuade/intimidate points possible.

[challenger18]

Durpmeister1 wrote...

challenger18 wrote...

I would like for them to use the persuade option ala DAO. To me, being a goody-two shoes or an apathetic ass doesn't mean you're good at persuading people. It's a skill all its own that has to do with being able to read someone and now exactly what to say back to get what you want rather than taking the morally high or low ground constantly in any situation.

I'd also like to see it change for the simple fact that I know that people feel chained to always picking one alignment option to the point where they would never even consider picking anything else. To me, DAO was much more enjoyable because you held no allegiance to any alignment, you just picked dialogue options that you felt best suited the situation and character, with some options being good, some being bad, some being neutral and some even being funny. If you had a high coercion skill you could persuade people to do **** for you. That's how I would like ME, but hey keep the colored differences when you try to persuade, so you can choose if you'd like to charm someone or threaten them depending on the situation. I'm usually a paragon mixed with some renegade; I like to charm people, but some ****s I meet (like the batarian group in the hallway leading to Afterlife) I just want to threaten them for being dicks for no reason and it's more satisfying doing that than them having the last word as a paragon.

Eh, just my rambling thoughts.

The thing is, the paragon Shepard in this game didn't always "charm" people. He even threatened and berated people for doing the wrong thing. I mean, you don't need to look any further than the situation where the Quarian was apprehended by the C-Sec, or when Mordin was trying to defend his use of the genophage. One thing that surprised me the most in ME2 was how aggressive the paragon Shepard was as opposed to what I had expected. It played more into the tone of the situation as opposed to a "goody-two shoes" cliche that I had expected.

Good example, but the quarian thing was an interrupt, not a persuade option, and I don't remember any charming going on with Mordin, just regular paragon/renegade choices, but you are right. What I'm saying though is that there still is a clear distinction between good and bad in the persuasion, and I really just refer to what they're called based on me1 (charm or intimidate).

[Nightwriter]

Meistr_Chef wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I believe that, like in DA:O, your dialogue choices should be based on your persuasion skill.

However, I believe that unlike DA:O, the game should also still have a paragon/renegade meter under the hood, strictly as a game mechanic, keeping track of the nature of your decisions (this meter would have no effect on actual playing). This way the game can form a behind the scene composite of who your character is.

The paragon/renegade meter does come with plusses. You make enough good decisions and the game will start to acknowledge the fact that you are a good person. People will begin to see you that way, and respond accordingly. I like this. It personalizes my gaming experience.

But the game appears to be optimized for those who play along with Bioware's two main branches, ie mostly paragon or mostly renegade.

The ones who mix it up all the time tend to suffer more from a gameplay choice perspective...maybe that's the tradeoff we have to make? Stick with a more "canon-like" character and we let you make some key choices...fool around all the time and we taketh those choices from you. There needs to be some other rewards for those who are morally ambivalent.

Oh, I see. Well, when you put it that way, you're right, the game is very polarity oriented. I'd never thought of it this way, as I'm mostly a paragon character by nature. Still, I would like the power to use intimidate options if I wanted to...

I'm not really sure, then, how the game could be expected to respond to moral ambivalence. I suppose you might just have to settle for an improvement in that moral ambivalence is simply not rewarded, but not outright punished, either (like it is in ME).

[IntrepidProdigy]

Riot Inducer wrote...

on a side note, are you guys sure persuade/intimidate were directly tied to paragon in ME1? I remember we only got the option of 3 points in each before becoming a specter and afterwards they both opened up with some free bonus points. I distinctly remember having a nearly full paragon bar and only a sliver of renegade yet still about equal persuade/intimidate points possible.

Finally, someone with a good memory. Your paragon and renegade would open up further each time you play through the game and would fill in automatically in ME1. It wasn't directly linked to your paragon/renegade score since it gives you a choice to put points in or to let it fill out itself with each consecutive play through with the same character.

[challenger18]

Meistr_Chef wrote...

But the game appears to be optimized for those who play along with Bioware's two main branches, ie mostly paragon or mostly renegade.

The ones who mix it up all the time tend to suffer more from a gameplay choice perspective...maybe that's the tradeoff we have to make? Stick with a more "canon-like" character and we let you make some key choices...fool around all the time and we taketh those choices from you. There needs to be some other rewards for those who are morally ambivalent.

I don't like that too. I mean just so much trouble comes from the alignment system that just isn't needed. Take for example that for my class specialization I always pick the one that gives me the para/rena boost. I've never had a persuade option blocked out for me, but then I come on these boards I see and endless amount of "Miranda isn't loyal, Jack isn't loyal, Tali is mad at me, why is my paragon option blocked out, I have 80% paragon!" topics because people don't realize just how much emphases BioWare puts on the alignment.

[Meistr_Chef]

challenger18 wrote...

Meistr_Chef wrote...

But the game appears to be optimized for those who play along with Bioware's two main branches, ie mostly paragon or mostly renegade.

The ones who mix it up all the time tend to suffer more from a gameplay choice perspective...maybe that's the tradeoff we have to make? Stick with a more "canon-like" character and we let you make some key choices...fool around all the time and we taketh those choices from you. There needs to be some other rewards for those who are morally ambivalent.

I don't like that too. I mean just so much trouble comes from the alignment system that just isn't needed. Take for example that for my class specialization I always pick the one that gives me the para/rena boost. I've never had a persuade option blocked out for me, but then I come on these boards I see and endless amount of "Miranda isn't loyal, Jack isn't loyal, Tali is mad at me, why is my paragon option blocked out, I have 80% paragon!" topics because people don't realize just how much emphases BioWare puts on the alignment.

I have always chosen the +100 paragon/renegade skill too, but now I can't even recruit Morinth! And signs point to the fact that I'm going to have trouble with Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion. It really shouldn't be this hard...right?

[Nightwriter]

Durpmeister1 wrote...

The thing is, the paragon Shepard in this game didn't always "charm" people. He even threatened and berated people for doing the wrong thing. I mean, you don't need to look any further than the situation where the Quarian was apprehended by the C-Sec, or when Mordin was trying to defend his use of the genophage. One thing that surprised me the most in ME2 was how aggressive the paragon Shepard was as opposed to what I had expected. It played more into the tone of the situation as opposed to a "goody-two shoes" cliche that I had expected.

Yes, the Mordin conversation irritated me VERY much. I’m solid paragon, but the paragon dialogue options in that conversation were very harsh, a harshness that I didn’t feel Mordin deserved.
 
It also annoyed me that if I agreed with Mordin in the end that he’d done the right thing, it got me renegade points.
 
Mordin had some very good arguments, and in the end I did think he’d done the right thing. He explained how tough the situation was. I came to see there really was no better option, and that he’d done the best he could. “Genophage or genocide”. The krogan were going to bring a wave of destruction crashing down on the galaxy. They were out of control. Something had to be done.
 
And yet when I said, “I understand Mordin, you did the best you could” it’s renegade.

[adam_grif]

The system is BS because it punishes Paragades, makes it so you can't have everyone loyal.



They just have to add in a persuasion skill to put points into.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

i would prefer all of the intimidate/persuade removed completely and replaced by realtime interrupts. except they dont necessarily have to interrupt conversations. the icons just pop up during certain points in a scene/conversation.



and also have both L and R icons flash simultaneously, and you just choose which one to push. not pushing any results in neutral/indifferent reaction.

[challenger18]

adam_grif wrote...

The system is BS because it punishes Paragades, makes it so you can't have everyone loyal.

They just have to add in a persuasion skill to put points into.

I play paragon and everyone in my crew has been loyal.

[BellaStrega]

ZennExile wrote...

Average gamers don't like complex ideas messing up their game experience. If Bioware tried to release a game that didn't use a good/evil point system to determine how the player should respond "avergae" gamers would lose their ****in minds like those retards on the gamefly commercials.

Dragon Age doesn't have a good/evil point system.

[adam_grif]

challenger18 wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

The system is BS because it punishes Paragades, makes it so you can't have everyone loyal.

They just have to add in a persuasion skill to put points into.

I play paragon and everyone in my crew has been loyal.

How?!

I go shock trooper, and play 70 / 30 Renegade / Paragon split. I had enough renegade for the Miranda/Jack, but not for the Tali/Legion. I also didn't have enough for morinth.

[CaptFrost]

I agree completely. I liked ME1's setup more where you had Charm and Intimidate skills that you could build up and that carried over. Opened up a whole ton of options with dialog, especially on your second time through.



My 2nd ME2 playthrough I spent about two hours cheating my alignment up to about half renegade and half paragon so that I could play the game all the way through and make my own decisions the way I wanted to make them without worrying about derailing my endgame. So it'd feel more like a Mass Effect 1 NG+.



You know what the result was?



From a dramatic perspective I enjoyed my 2nd ME2 playthrough an order of magnitude more.

[GuardianAngel470]

ZennExile wrote...

Average gamers don't like complex ideas messing up their game experience. If Bioware tried to release a game that didn't use a good/evil point system to determine how the player should respond "avergae" gamers would lose their ****in minds like those retards on the gamefly commercials.

The problem with your arguement zenn is that we on this forum and RPG players in general do care about this and we've been dealing with it in far greater levels of complexity for years.  I personally liked the old system, It allowed me to play how I wanted, not how Bioware wanted me to play.  It's a level of control and dictation that somewhat sullies the experience.

[challenger18]

adam_grif wrote...

challenger18 wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

The system is BS because it punishes Paragades, makes it so you can't have everyone loyal.

They just have to add in a persuasion skill to put points into.

I play paragon and everyone in my crew has been loyal.

How?!

I go shock trooper, and play 70 / 30 Renegade / Paragon split. I had enough renegade for the Miranda/Jack, but not for the Tali/Legion. I also didn't have enough for morinth.

I imported. Probably had something to do with it.

[Jimbe2693]

Alignment based persuation should go, in my opinion.



Doesn't make sense that 'neutral' players miss out of conversation options, and it doesn't make sense that Paragon/Renegade affects how well you can persuade other characters, I would've thought that somebody who takes multiple options into account would be the more persuasive person.

[dan107]

cronshaw8 wrote...

It actually makes perfect sense if your squad-mates see you constantly doing compassionate things, helping people out. They will defer to the paragon Shepard, confident he knows what is good for everyone. Conversely if they see you constantly bullying people and sticking your boot up people's asses they will be afraid of renegade shepard and do what he says. If Shepard is wishy-washy they won't be sure what to think.

Being harsh aggressive when it's necessary and nice and polite when it's appropriate is not being "wishy-washy", it's using your head and adjusting to the demands of any given situation. Presumably you wouldn't talk to your mother the same way you would to a guy trying to pick a fight with you IRL, and it makes no sense to do so in a game.

[Meistr_Chef]

CaptFrost wrote...

I agree completely. I liked ME1's setup more where you had Charm and Intimidate skills that you could build up and that carried over. Opened up a whole ton of options with dialog, especially on your second time through.

My 2nd ME2 playthrough I spent about two hours cheating my alignment up to about half renegade and half paragon so that I could play the game all the way through and make my own decisions the way I wanted to make them without worrying about derailing my endgame. So it'd feel more like a Mass Effect 1 NG+.

You know what the result was?

From a dramatic perspective I enjoyed my 2nd ME2 playthrough an order of magnitude more.

How did you cheat your alignment?

If Bioware can't/won't implement a more flexible persuasion system in ME3, they should consider extra persuasion bonuses for people who've played the game 2 or more times. I mean, the last thing you want to do for replays is to shackle your die-hard fans (it's pretty safe to say that people who play the game repeatedly are probably die hard fans). I really appreciated the minerals bonuses etc they gave the 2nd time I played the game; really reduced the grind factor. I can only imagine how much better it would be if they did more for persuasion for multiple replays (maybe they did? I can't tell since I'm only halfway through the 2nd play)

Modifié par Meistr_Chef, 25 février 2010 - 08:31 .

[Dracotamer]

I think you should STILL be able to gather points for renegade and paragon, but be able to choose either choices no matter how many points you have. I personally like to be paragon, but in some instances I do renegade things.

[IRMcGhee]

I like the ME2 system since it forces you to be consistent with your character. You're not stopped from making lesser P/R decisions (more so if you bump up your class skill), but the game doesn't let you swap back and forward whenever you like if you think you can get some advantage. Unless you're Shepard is schizophrenic that's hardly realistic It isn't a simplification of the game, "hardcore" RPGs (esp PnP) like D&D often penalise you for not sticking to your alignment.



Playing neutral isn't really a choice IMO, you have to be seen to a strong leader and not taking a stand doesn't really cut it.