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[Blakes 7]

Here is the link to the article

http://www.shamusyou...dedtale/?p=7007

Having a blast reading this. Haven't thought about it much myself but I happen to agree with the four points below.


"According to the game designers, this is an unambiguously evil move.
Every single member of your crew – including the amoral Krogen, the
nihilistic Jack, the pragmatic pro-science Mordin, and the pro-Cerberus
Miranda – will approve of you destroying the base. This isn’t a
brilliant shades-of-gray decision like we see elsewhere in the game,
this is a black-and-white choice where the whole crew agrees that the
paragon course of action (option #2) is the right one.
If you choose the paragon option, Shepard decides to blow up the base
saying, “I won’t let fear compromise who I am.” And later, “We’ll beat
[the Reapers] without sacrificing the soul of our species.”

I find this line of reasoning to be lazy and infantile to the point
of being offensive.
1) Proof. By this point you have now spent two whole
games trying to convince the rest of the galaxy that the Reaper threat
is real. One of the major reasons the battle is so desperate is because
you’ve been working alone. Here is unambiguous proof of an advanced
enemy with hostile intentions.
2) Memorial. Keeping the facility is crucial for
understanding who died here, and how. If nothing else, looking for
bodies and dogtags to send home would have been worthwhile and offer
some families a sense of closure.
3) Technology. Yes, study the technology. Just
because the Slurpee machine of evilness is horrible doesn’t mean that we
shouldn’t understand how it works and why. Particularly when you’re in a
war and the enemy has you outmatched in both numbers and tech.
The idea that we shouldn’t understand a technology because it has been
used in evil ways is a line of reasoning that borders on primitive
superstition.
4) Intel. How does the enemy communicate? What is
their history? What are their plans? Up until now the Reapers have been a
great big question mark, and this is our first chance to fill in some
blanks by digging around in their computers and reading their mail.
Even if there was some unforeseen danger to keeping the
station, we could blow it up anytime we want if it turned out to be a
problem. This isn’t a decision that needs to be made on the
battlefield.

So yeah I did not do evil bioware - there is only the potential for evil, don't make me regret it in me3 pretty please

[Vanaer]

I also didn't really get why I was questioned for keeping the base. I did not want to hand it over to Cerberus, but keeping the base seemed more logical than destroying it, considering the reapers are a greater threat than Cerberus.

[Gill Kaiser]

It's not keeping it that's evil, it's handing it to the Illusive Man. Sadly he's the only guy likely to be able to make use out of it.

[Blakes 7]

Should of been able to give the base to the alliance, not like the illusive man could stop me

[Nhani]

As much as I respect Shamus Young for being clever and having good points and all that, in this particular case I think he just trying to read things at face value without including the appropriate context. (Then again, I'd agree with him that the "appropriate context" might've been just a tad obscure with a whole lot being left for the viewer to guess at for this particular chapter) There was actually a pretty good comment quite far down that thread that said it pretty well, but since I can't be bothered to find it..

There's an underlying theme of making your own future versus being "given" it; the choice about whether to keep or destroy the base is analogous to the Geth split with the Heretics wanting a future from the Reapers and the normal Geth wanting to make their future on their own. There's further analogs like what happened with the Krogan due to their uplifting, etcetera.

I wouldn't say it's a good versus evil choice; I would say it's an integrity versus success at any cost choice, which fits somewhat well into the whole paragon/renegade thing.

Modifié par Nhani, 25 février 2010 - 10:34 .

[BellaStrega]

This line

“We’ll beat [the Reapers] without sacrificing the soul of our species.”

is also possible if you give the base to the Illusive Man. Just pick the dialogue option under "shut up."

[wolfstanus]

I said "you work for me now"

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

The Alliance wouldn't be picking up the ship, Cerberus would. I played enough of ME1 to not trust them based on their horrible track record.

[Amethyst Deceiver]

the act of keeping the base isnt the question.

its the act of giving it to TIM that is considered renegade.

there is no option to do the "right" thing. you are presented with a lose/lose situation. and forced to choose whichever is the lesser of 2 "evils"

it is set up this way on purpose. the pursose is to create an unchangeable canon for ME3. so your choice of keeping or destroying the base will have very little impact the same way that keeping or killing the council was last game.

Modifié par Amethyst Deceiver, 25 février 2010 - 10:47 .

[Aisynia]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

The Alliance wouldn't be picking up the ship, Cerberus would. I played enough of ME1 to not trust them based on their horrible track record.

You have the only ship that can reach it.

[Mnemnosyne]

So why are you giving it to the Illusive Man? This is one of the worst plot points in the entire series so far, the fact that your options are 'give to the Illusive Man' and 'Blow it up' when you are in possession of the only ship in the galaxy capable of traveling to and from that base.



There is zero reason why you shouldn't be able to hand that base to the Council or to the Alliance. None. No explanation is given, not even a token handwave, it simply never comes up.

[Muffildy]

I believe a technology can be evil; you might say all tech is neutral and what you do with it is what makes it good or evil, but some things are just the epitome of evil.

What possible use for a station that turns life into some weird cybernetic combination of life and tech be? Even if we did understand exactly how it worked it would be morally reprehensible to use such a tech. Not only that, but did you ever think that maybe this is a plot of the reapers? that station was poorly defended, and your working for TIM who seems to be somewhat cybernetic; what if it was all a ruse to get TIM a galaxy of people who would willingly use a reprehensible tech in order to defend themselves only to find out that they were doing the work of creating a reaper baby or babies for them by the act of using that tech? It would be all too simple for a reaper to hack into reaper like constructs to turn them over to their side.

This also goes along with the idea sovereign posits that we are going in a tech direction that they want us to go in by the use of the mass relays; so using the life sucking tech would further that tech direction. In order to really combat the threat of the reapers and that tech direction we should of course strike out in our own direction.



Personally, i would say our direction should probably be really really powerful bombs attached to extremely manueverable small ships sent to kamikaze run the reaper ships. Somewhat like in starcraft 2 with the rodent looking race (shofixti?).

[ThisIsMadness91]

Shamus makes some valid points, but I'm not totally convinced.



Proof: If they didn't believe you when Sovereign itself attacked, I doubt they'd find anything convincing in the base (they'd probably just say the Collectors were a highly advanced species).



Memorial: I'm pretty sure all of the colonists were melted down by the time you got there (your crew was next on the chopping board). I doubt the Collectors would bother keeping sentimental things like dogtags.



Technology: Understanding the enemy's technology is one thing, wanting to use it (in this case, at the cost of lives) like the Illusive Man did is something else entirely. If I could have turned the station over to the Council or the Alliance, I may well have, but I knew Cerberus would do horrible things with it for morally ambiguous reasons, so I sent it to the home of their namesake.



Intel: I don't think the Reapers would leave such vital intel on that one station.

[Gill Kaiser]

I agree with Legion and Mordin when they say that all life should self-determinate, especially when it comes to technological advancement. Giving the Collector Base to TIM, the Alliance or anything else is extremely dangerous. The galaxy isn't ready for people to have access to that kind of technology, especially if it relies upon liquidation of organics in order to function.

Keeping the Base in play removes the impetus for us to develop our OWN anti-Reaper technology, which for all we know could be more effective than turning their own technology against them, if that's even possible in the first place. Technology is not a straight line.

[The Angry One]

I find the stance that one can't rely on Reaper technology highly hypocritical given that, in essence, EDI is a Reaper.

[Gill Kaiser]

Sure, EDI and the Thanix cannon are based on Reaper tech, but that doesn't mean we should rely upon it for our entire strategy.

[Terrorfex]

Reaper technology is all around us.

Virtually every species; Krogan, Asari, Salarian, Human, Turian and a dozen others base their technology on the Mass Effect Relays. Their starships use Element Zero in the form of drive cores, kinetic barriers and mass accelerator weapons. Galactic civilisation for the last who-knows-how-long has simply rediscovered Reaper technology rather than spontaenously innovated.*

Why haven't the Mass Effect Relays been dismantled? Why hasn't the use of Element Zero been outlawed? In the case of Humanity, everything post Martian Discovery has been based on Reaper technology directly, or indirectly.

It's convenient enough to say that the likes of the Asari, the Salarians etc. Don't believe in the Reaper threat, but in the case of Humanity, it's a pretty well known "fact". The reason nobody's making a move to dismantle any technology associated with the Reaper threat, is because that would effectively be committing suicide to deny a murderer the chance.

Reaper technology, however, is largely hidden. The truth of the Mass Effect Relays managed to elude the galaxy for millenia (And continues to elude most). The origins of the Citadel is unimaginable by most species.

The Collector Base is the first palpable, intact piece of Reaper technology which does not attempt to hide its own nature. It was never built to hide what it was, and in that respect its value is incalculable.

It makes very little sense that the likes of Miranda, Mordin, Samara and the supposedly more learned members of your team see a distinction between continuing to use Reaper technology dressed up as something innocent (ME Relays, Element Zero) but draw the line at capturing a facility that was never, ever intended to be found by non-Reaper eyes.

Still, it's a superb game so I forgive them.


*This is not strictly correct. The Protheans managed to build their own Mass Effect Relay (The Conduit linking Ilois to the Citadel). This represents one of the only truly "natural" technological evolutions to take place outside the Reapers' plan.

Ironically, this didn't happen until AFTER the Protheans became aware of the nature of the Reapers. The Collectors base could have served the same purpose as the Reapers' destruction of Prothean civilisation, inspiring the development of native technology without requiring the deaths of billions (or more)

I still love you, Bioware. Tali-Five! (It's like a high-five, but with more Tali)

Modifié par Terrorfex, 25 février 2010 - 11:01 .

[wolfstanus]

Remember when Soverin {sp} said that when biological being copy their tech they develope on the path the reapers chose?

[The Angry One]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Sure, EDI and the Thanix cannon are based on Reaper tech, but that doesn't mean we should rely upon it for our entire strategy.

Yeah but it seems to me that's what we're doing anyway, and all our other tech is based on what the Reapers gave us anyway.
More to the point Legion is right about determination, but in the end the Geth want to become like the Reapers, not in the consume all organics way but in the unified being way. There are many paths to the same goal but the Reaper path isn't inherently "bad". The argument that Reaper tech is what the Reapers want is also false, because the Reapers clearly didn't want us to have Thanix cannon tech.

[tsd16]

The article fails to mention, THE BASE GOES TO CERBERUS. There is no option to give to the council or the Alliance.



Throughout the game you get the option to say your on cerberus' side or whether you dont trust them. They do all kinds of ****ed up crap, especially from your experience in the first game, and I am still not convinced they arent terrorists. TIM is just pandering to you through the whole experience just to get you to play along, I have no doubt, TIM's evil ugly head will rise, either in an expansion or ME3. This is why it is a renegade action.

[Archilochos]

Aisynia wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

The Alliance wouldn't be picking up the ship, Cerberus would. I played enough of ME1 to not trust them based on their horrible track record.

You have the only ship that can reach it.

This is a good point, and also the reason I found it odd that Shep couldn't tell TIM "We're done, I'm coming back with Council and/or Alliance people.  No base for you."

On a side note, I never understood keeping the base as a strategic decision.  Shep's basically fighting a guerilla war.  His/her enemies are an unknown number of immensely powerful immortals who have essentially ruled the galaxy for at least 37 million years, not to mention any number of other galaxies they may be able to reach from dark space.  The base is not portable, and the Reapers know where it is.  There's pretty much no way to hold that base if the Reapers don't want you to have it.  Basic asymmetric warfare: if you can't hold a resource, deny it to the enemy.  Shep can't be sure the base can be held, or even that it will be useful, but he/she does know that the Reapers can't use it if it's gone.

[The Angry One]

As an aside did anyone else think this topic was about Morinth from the title?

[wolfstanus]

I thought this was about legion at first.

[Mnemnosyne]

Archilochos wrote...
This is a good point, and also the reason I found it odd that Shep couldn't tell TIM "We're done, I'm coming back with Council and/or Alliance people.  No base for you."

On a side note, I never understood keeping the base as a strategic decision.  Shep's basically fighting a guerilla war.  His/her enemies are an unknown number of immensely powerful immortals who have essentially ruled the galaxy for at least 37 million years, not to mention any number of other galaxies they may be able to reach from dark space.  The base is not portable, and the Reapers know where it is.  There's pretty much no way to hold that base if the Reapers don't want you to have it.  Basic asymmetric warfare: if you can't hold a resource, deny it to the enemy.  Shep can't be sure the base can be held, or even that it will be useful, but he/she does know that the Reapers can't use it if it's gone.

The base can be destroyed at any time in the future.  It's not as though it is suddenly going to become indestructible if you do not choose to destroy it at that exact moment.  Even considering the logical merits of your strategy, there's no reason not to study it for as long as is necessary to determine what useful technology you may gain from it.  And since there's not a lot of danger of the Reapers showing up tomorrow to kick you off the lawn (and if they did you're screwed anyway), you've got some time to study it before having to destroy it.

[Terrorfex]

In asymmetric warfare one generally survives (let alone wins) by unconventional thinking and risk-taking. I see nobody's pointed out that there is only one way to the Collectors' base, via the O-4 Relay which is in itself a strategic bottleneck.


Like any IFF system, it can very easily be modified.


The value of the Collectors' base is the fact it is the only piece of Reaper technology outside of the wreckage of Sovereign which was not designed to pretend to be something else.

His/her enemies are an unknown number of immensely powerful immortals who have essentially ruled the galaxy for at least 37 million years, not to mention any number of other galaxies they may be able to reach from dark space.

That seems like compelling reasons to glean as much as you can from the base.

It's also worth pointing out that the Reapers, traditionally, enter the Milky Way by use of the ME Relays. This is the first time in their cycle that their plans have gone ****** up, so to speak, and they're being forced to (literally) fly into the galactic plane. Since they clearly don't have any Super-FTL drives (Or they'd be here in next to no time and ME3 would be very, very short) it stands to reason they have no better a way of reaching their own base than we do.

I don't think anybody's maintaining we hold the Collectors' base to ransom, but we hold all the cards. We alone can destroy it in the blink of an eye, and we alone possess the IFF required to pass through the only ME Relay linking to the base.

We also have the advantage of having forced the Reapers to actually "Think" about what they're going to do next, rather than just repeat their feeding pattern.




We will toil and we will bleed. We will hurt and we will fall. Salarian, Asari, Human, Turian, Krogan, Batarian, Volus, Elcor, Hanar, Vorcha, Quarian, Geth and a dozen more will die in battle.

Our ships will splinter between the stars and our worlds will burn, but while one of our number still draws breath to look upon the foul malevolence of the Reaper threat ... WE WILL HOLD THE LINE.

VICTORY OR DEATH.

Modifié par Terrorfex, 25 février 2010 - 11:22 .