184 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

“According to the game designers”…
 
What does that mean? Have the devs actually spoken on this matter? Or is this person merely basing this off of how the game itself judges the decision?

[Nhani]

Terrorfex wrote...
Why haven't the Mass Effect Relays been dismantled? Why hasn't the use of Element Zero been outlawed? In the case of Humanity, everything post Martian Discovery has been based on Reaper technology directly, or indirectly.

You can't un-see what has been seen; outlawing Element Zero or dismantling Mass Relays won't do anything now because the races have already progressed to incorporate them. We can't affect past development, only future development.

The Krogan are probably our best analogue, actually, thinking about it. The choice to keep versus destroy the Collector base essentially has Shepard play Salarians, humanity the Krogan, the Reapers as the Rachni and you get a large message box going "Uplift yes/no".

[Nhani]

Nightwriter wrote...
“According to the game designers”…
 
What does that mean? Have the devs actually spoken on this matter? Or is this person merely basing this off of how the game itself judges the decision?

The latter; your team all but universally disagree with the choice to keep the base and thumbs up destroying it. It's entirely fair to assume it might just be to mess with our heads, but BioWare clearly intentionally thumbed up the base's destruction through your team mates.

[wolfstanus]

Also don't the reapers want the galaxy to develope using their tech? I mean if we copy their tech )including software) wont they be better able to deal with it? IE hacking.

Modifié par wolfstanus, 25 février 2010 - 11:30 .

[Terrorfex]

Nhani wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...
Why haven't the Mass Effect Relays been dismantled? Why hasn't the use of Element Zero been outlawed? In the case of Humanity, everything post Martian Discovery has been based on Reaper technology directly, or indirectly.

You can't un-see what has been seen; outlawing Element Zero or dismantling Mass Relays won't do anything now because the races have already progressed to incorporate them. We can't affect past development, only future development.

The Krogan are probably our best analogue, actually, thinking about it. The choice to keep versus destroy the Collector base essentially has Shepard play Salarians, humanity the Krogan, the Reapers as the Rachni and you get a large message box going "Uplift yes/no".

I totally agree, but in that case it makes the argument for retaining the Collectors Base even more compelling.

To base your entire civilisation on a technology you barely comprehend is risky. To base your entire civilisation on a technology you know to be a trap is dangerous. To base your entire civilisation on a technology you know to be a trap, eschewing the one chance to study it in its natural existance is moronic.

Basing an entire galaxy's worth of civilisations ... You get me.

[Nightwriter]

Nhani wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
“According to the game designers”…
 
What does that mean? Have the devs actually spoken on this matter? Or is this person merely basing this off of how the game itself judges the decision?

The latter; your team all but universally disagree with the choice to keep the base and thumbs up destroying it. It's entirely fair to assume it might just be to mess with our heads, but BioWare clearly intentionally thumbed up the base's destruction through your team mates.

Ah. For a moment there I had hoped that one of the devs had actually talked about it... I love hearing their insights, it really gives you a look at the game from the inside.

I suppose it comes down to asking ourselves how deceptive Bioware is, then. They gave you every indication destroying the base was the paragon way to go. I really would like to hear their reasoning on this. 

[Nhani]

wolfstanus wrote...
Also don't the reapers want the galaxy to develope using their tech? I mean if we copy their tech )including software) wont they be better able to deal with it? IE hacking.

Not so much, I think; what they wanted seemed to be more people to develop along a certain path without understanding the underlaying technology behind it, ie: Mass Relays. They want people to use the Citadel and the Relays because then they can control how they develop; they wouldn't want people to build their own Mass Relays because that might befuddle their great master plan.

No matter if you keep or destroy the Collector base, you go against the Reapers. The main difference - as I believe it to be intended - is that the renegade decision is essentially "We will ascend their way, but on our terms" while the paragon one is more "We will ascend on our own, when we are ready, not before."

I think it's far more a metaphorical decision than a practical one, really.

[wolfstanus]

Nightwriter wrote...

Nhani wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
“According to the game designers”…
 
What does that mean? Have the devs actually spoken on this matter? Or is this person merely basing this off of how the game itself judges the decision?

The latter; your team all but universally disagree with the choice to keep the base and thumbs up destroying it. It's entirely fair to assume it might just be to mess with our heads, but BioWare clearly intentionally thumbed up the base's destruction through your team mates.

Ah. For a moment there I had hoped that one of the devs had actually talked about it... I love hearing their insights, it really gives you a look at the game from the inside.

I suppose it comes down to asking ourselves how deceptive Bioware is, then. They gave you every indication destroying the base was the paragon way to go. I really would like to hear their reasoning on this. 

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

[Computron2000]

Aisynia wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

The Alliance wouldn't be picking up the ship, Cerberus would. I played enough of ME1 to not trust them based on their horrible track record.

You have the only ship that can reach it.

Unfortunately no. The ending where Shepard dies and the base is not destroyed shows 4-5 (can't remember the number) Cerberus ships already moving in even as Joker finishes contacting TIM. this means they already reversed engineered the protocol used to activate the mass relay.

[Terrorfex]

wolfstanus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Nhani wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...
“According to the game designers”…
 
What does that mean? Have the devs actually spoken on this matter? Or is this person merely basing this off of how the game itself judges the decision?

The latter; your team all but universally disagree with the choice to keep the base and thumbs up destroying it. It's entirely fair to assume it might just be to mess with our heads, but BioWare clearly intentionally thumbed up the base's destruction through your team mates.

Ah. For a moment there I had hoped that one of the devs had actually talked about it... I love hearing their insights, it really gives you a look at the game from the inside.

I suppose it comes down to asking ourselves how deceptive Bioware is, then. They gave you every indication destroying the base was the paragon way to go. I really would like to hear their reasoning on this. 

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

Indeed. Only one species outsmarted the Reapers historically - The Protheans building the Ilios Conduit and even then, they ultimately lost.

[Nightwriter]

wolfstanus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Ah. For a moment there I had hoped that one of the devs had actually talked about it... I love hearing their insights, it really gives you a look at the game from the inside.

I suppose it comes down to asking ourselves how deceptive Bioware is, then. They gave you every indication destroying the base was the paragon way to go. I really would like to hear their reasoning on this. 

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

That's nice.

I destroyed the base and stand by that decision, so I'm not sure why you're telling me, but it's still nice.
Regardless, I would pay to hear the devs' thoughts on this.

[Nhani]

Nightwriter wrote...

Nhani wrote...
The latter; your team all but universally disagree with the choice to keep the base and thumbs up destroying it. It's entirely fair to assume it might just be to mess with our heads, but BioWare clearly intentionally thumbed up the base's destruction through your team mates.

Ah. For a moment there I had hoped that one of the devs had actually talked about it... I love hearing their insights, it really gives you a look at the game from the inside.

I suppose it comes down to asking ourselves how deceptive Bioware is, then. They gave you every indication destroying the base was the paragon way to go. I really would like to hear their reasoning on this. 

I don't think they'll say that much about it until the third game is out, if even then; I suspect they're trying to hold on to as many cards as they can for the third chapter - a whole lot of things in Mass Effect 2 seem to exist only to leave us guessing and then be picked up again in the third chapter.

Make no mistake, I'd actually be somewhat disappointed if keeping the base was all horrible and brings only ruin; my Shepard exploded the base in a huge fireball as a sacrifice for integrity. It'd somewhat cheapen the deal if it wasn't a sacrifice at all.

[Archilochos]

Koyasha wrote...

Archilochos wrote...
This is a good point, and also the reason I found it odd that Shep couldn't tell TIM "We're done, I'm coming back with Council and/or Alliance people.  No base for you."

On a side note, I never understood keeping the base as a strategic decision.  Shep's basically fighting a guerilla war.  His/her enemies are an unknown number of immensely powerful immortals who have essentially ruled the galaxy for at least 37 million years, not to mention any number of other galaxies they may be able to reach from dark space.  The base is not portable, and the Reapers know where it is.  There's pretty much no way to hold that base if the Reapers don't want you to have it.  Basic asymmetric warfare: if you can't hold a resource, deny it to the enemy.  Shep can't be sure the base can be held, or even that it will be useful, but he/she does know that the Reapers can't use it if it's gone.

The base can be destroyed at any time in the future.  It's not as though it is suddenly going to become indestructible if you do not choose to destroy it at that exact moment.  Even considering the logical merits of your strategy, there's no reason not to study it for as long as is necessary to determine what useful technology you may gain from it.  And since there's not a lot of danger of the Reapers showing up tomorrow to kick you off the lawn (and if they did you're screwed anyway), you've got some time to study it before having to destroy it.

Granted, the Reapers themselves aren't going to show up tomorrow (at least as far as we know - again, unknown capabilities, etc.), but they may have allies/agents in the area who can respond, or the base itself might be dangerous even if the Collectors are killed.  (Indoctrination, rigged to explode, wired for surveillance, thus providing Reapers with intel, etc.)  Or, I might be looking at the game with more paranoia/grimdark than Bio intended.  In any case, destroying the base always struck me as the safest strategic move.  Of course, why one wouldn't take out the Collectors, fill up the Normandy's cargo hold with pillaged tech and then destroy the base, I don't know.  (I suspect it's so the council can still do the "Ah, yes, 'Reapers'" thing in ME3 on the grounds that there's still no evidence because the base is either gone without a trace or under the control of a clandestine organization that will cover up its existence).

[Gill Kaiser]

Nhani wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...
Also don't the reapers want the galaxy to develope using their tech? I mean if we copy their tech )including software) wont they be better able to deal with it? IE hacking.

Not so much, I think; what they wanted seemed to be more people to develop along a certain path without understanding the underlaying technology behind it, ie: Mass Relays. They want people to use the Citadel and the Relays because then they can control how they develop; they wouldn't want people to build their own Mass Relays because that might befuddle their great master plan.

No matter if you keep or destroy the Collector base, you go against the Reapers. The main difference - as I believe it to be intended - is that the renegade decision is essentially "We will ascend their way, but on our terms" while the paragon one is more "We will ascend on our own, when we are ready, not before."

I think it's far more a metaphorical decision than a practical one, really.

Yes. As Legion says, obtaining technology like that closes your mind to other possibilities. If we study the Collector Base, no doubt we'd obtain a slew of new technology and weapons, but it's all based upon Reaper technology which they obviously understand better than us. Say we developed an amazing new gun that shot the same focused energy beam as the Collector ship did... who's to say that the Reapers can't just tune their shields to completely ignore that beam, because they know its design intimately?

If we make the conscious decision to try to fight the Reapers on our own terms and develop our own technology to do so, there's a far greater chance of us thinking outside the box and coming up with a weapon that the Reapers never even considered.

Modifié par Gill Kaiser, 25 février 2010 - 11:42 .

[The Angry One]

wolfstanus wrote...

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

So what? Human civilization is still based on Reaper tech with the base or without it.
The tech was never the problem, using it in ignorance was the problem.

The cycle being broken at all is thanks to Reaper tech; the Protheans reverse engineered a mass relay and reprogrammed the Keepers, both of those are Reaper tech, used to save the galaxy instead of destroy it.

[wolfstanus]

Nightwriter wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Ah. For a moment there I had hoped that one of the devs had actually talked about it... I love hearing their insights, it really gives you a look at the game from the inside.

I suppose it comes down to asking ourselves how deceptive Bioware is, then. They gave you every indication destroying the base was the paragon way to go. I really would like to hear their reasoning on this. 

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

That's nice.

I destroyed the base and stand by that decision, so I'm not sure why you're telling me, but it's still nice.
Regardless, I would pay to hear the devs' thoughts on this.

Quoted the wrong person my bad.

[Vanaer]

wolfstanus wrote...

Also don't the reapers want the galaxy to develope using their tech? I mean if we copy their tech )including software) wont they be better able to deal with it? IE hacking.

Well, we've already developed with their technology by simply using it. Studying this 'bare' Collector technology to understand their technology can't hurt, especially in war time. Next to that, I do not expect the Reapers to have expected incorporation of their own technology to be going this far, they want to control our technological path.

Modifié par Vanaer, 25 février 2010 - 11:47 .

[wolfstanus]

The Angry One wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

So what? Human civilization is still based on Reaper tech with the base or without it.
The tech was never the problem, using it in ignorance was the problem.

The cycle being broken at all is thanks to Reaper tech; the Protheans reverse engineered a mass relay and reprogrammed the Keepers, both of those are Reaper tech, used to save the galaxy instead of destroy it.

They never reprogramed the Keepers. they just changed the signal that tells the keepers to avctivate the citadel. The keepers then evolved to only listen to the citadel (evolution of the keepers was a side effect) And they did that while the reapers were not around and after their civilization was allready destroyed and the reapers gone.

[Nhani]

Terrorfex wrote...

Nhani wrote...
You can't un-see what has been seen; outlawing Element Zero or dismantling Mass Relays won't do anything now because the races have already progressed to incorporate them. We can't affect past development, only future development.

The Krogan are probably our best analogue, actually, thinking about it. The choice to keep versus destroy the Collector base essentially has Shepard play Salarians, humanity the Krogan, the Reapers as the Rachni and you get a large message box going "Uplift yes/no".

I totally agree, but in that case it makes the argument for retaining the Collectors Base even more compelling.

To base your entire civilisation on a technology you barely comprehend is risky. To base your entire civilisation on a technology you know to be a trap is dangerous. To base your entire civilisation on a technology you know to be a trap, eschewing the one chance to study it in its natural existance is moronic.

Basing an entire galaxy's worth of civilisations ... You get me.

Well there's a going question of would it help you? If you want to understand Mass Relay technology, the place you want to study is more likely the Citadel or the actual relays, really.

I mean sure, the Collector base likely has some goodies like just how they kept it afloat in the galactic core, but aside from that and a few Collector bio-mechanical beam weapons, I never got the feeling there was that much more to get from the base beyond how to ascend on our own.

[The Angry One]

wolfstanus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

So what? Human civilization is still based on Reaper tech with the base or without it.
The tech was never the problem, using it in ignorance was the problem.

The cycle being broken at all is thanks to Reaper tech; the Protheans reverse engineered a mass relay and reprogrammed the Keepers, both of those are Reaper tech, used to save the galaxy instead of destroy it.

They never reprogramed the Keepers. they just changed the signal that tells the keepers to avctivate the citadel. The keepers then evolved to only listen to the citadel (evolution of the keepers was a side effect) And they did that while the reapers were not around and after their civilization was allready destroyed and the reapers gone.

Yes? And? The point is the Keepers would no longer respond to remote Reaper commands. Reaper tech effectively turned against the Reapers.

[wolfstanus]

The Angry One wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

So what? Human civilization is still based on Reaper tech with the base or without it.
The tech was never the problem, using it in ignorance was the problem.

The cycle being broken at all is thanks to Reaper tech; the Protheans reverse engineered a mass relay and reprogrammed the Keepers, both of those are Reaper tech, used to save the galaxy instead of destroy it.

They never reprogramed the Keepers. they just changed the signal that tells the keepers to avctivate the citadel. The keepers then evolved to only listen to the citadel (evolution of the keepers was a side effect) And they did that while the reapers were not around and after their civilization was allready destroyed and the reapers gone.

Yes? And? The point is the Keepers would no longer respond to remote Reaper commands. Reaper tech effectively turned against the Reapers.

The fact is the reapers know whats going on this time and can prepare. Last time they were not around and were in hibernation while the doomed protheans snuck around the citadel.

[Terrorfex]

[quote]Nhani wrote...

[quote]Terrorfex wrote...
[quote]Nhani wrote...
You can't un-see what has been seen; outlawing Element Zero or dismantling Mass Relays won't do anything now because the races have already progressed to incorporate them. We can't affect past development, only future development.

The Krogan are probably our best analogue, actually, thinking about it. The choice to keep versus destroy the Collector base essentially has Shepard play Salarians, humanity the Krogan, the Reapers as the Rachni and you get a large message box going "Uplift yes/no".[/quote]

I totally agree, but in that case it makes the argument for retaining the Collectors Base even more compelling.

To base your entire civilisation on a technology you barely comprehend is risky. To base your entire civilisation on a technology you know to be a trap is dangerous. To base your entire civilisation on a technology you know to be a trap, eschewing the one chance to study it in its natural existance is moronic.

Basing an entire galaxy's worth of civilisations ... You get me.
[/quote]
Well there's a going question of would it help you? If you want to understand Mass Relay technology, the place you want to study is more likely the Citadel or the actual relays, really.
quote]




The Citadel and the ME Relays were designed to be hidden - designed to appear as anything other than Reaper in origin. The Collectors Base by virtue of its defences and location, was designed to be "impossible" to reach, rather than passively hidden by pretending to be something else.

The fact it "looks" Reaper tells me, in my opinion, that it has a lot to teach us.

Modifié par Terrorfex, 25 février 2010 - 11:55 .

[Nightwriter]

wolfstanus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Ah. For a moment there I had hoped that one of the devs had actually talked about it... I love hearing their insights, it really gives you a look at the game from the inside.

I suppose it comes down to asking ourselves how deceptive Bioware is, then. They gave you every indication destroying the base was the paragon way to go. I really would like to hear their reasoning on this. 

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

That's nice.

I destroyed the base and stand by that decision, so I'm not sure why you're telling me, but it's still nice.
Regardless, I would pay to hear the devs' thoughts on this.

Quoted the wrong person my bad.

Ah. This happens to me sometimes.

At least you didn't accidentally quote yourself, thereby responding to your own post. This can make one seem unhinged and may draw many raised eyebrows. I know this. 

[wolfstanus]

Nightwriter wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Ah. For a moment there I had hoped that one of the devs had actually talked about it... I love hearing their insights, it really gives you a look at the game from the inside.

I suppose it comes down to asking ourselves how deceptive Bioware is, then. They gave you every indication destroying the base was the paragon way to go. I really would like to hear their reasoning on this. 

Every civilization that based their tech on reaper tech is dead....

That's nice.

I destroyed the base and stand by that decision, so I'm not sure why you're telling me, but it's still nice.
Regardless, I would pay to hear the devs' thoughts on this.

Quoted the wrong person my bad.

Ah. This happens to me sometimes.

At least you didn't accidentally quote yourself, thereby responding to your own post. This can make one seem unhinged and may draw many raised eyebrows. I know this. 

I used to loginto 2 of my accounts and yell at myself...

[Strafbomber]

IF THe normandy is the only ship with the reaper iff? doesnt the base just belong to Shepard? I've always wondered this he can give it to anyone he wants.